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Koga's Trap vs Aromatic Energy (Venomoth-GX)


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Yeesterbunny
Posted (edited)

Client: 2.79.0.5227:#2209
Card: Koga's Trap
Card Number: Unbroken Bonds 177, 211 ; Hidden Fates 59
Expected Action:  Koga's Trap should play but fail to apply special conditions against opponent with Aromatic Energy attached. Venomoth-GX's attack should then apply increased damage effect from Koga's Trap having been played.
Actual Action: Koga's Trap can not be selected to play while opponent has Aromatic Energy attached.
Steps to Reproduce: "Opponent" attaches Aromatic Energy to a grass type pokemon, "player" attempts to play Koga's Trap.

 

I was playing a Venomoth-gx deck where Venomoth-gx's attack damage is increased by playing Koga's Trap. My opponent had aromatic energy on and was immune to special conditions. The game would not let me play Koga's Trap at all. Is it a bug? Shouldn't I be able to play Koga's Trap (even though it would be ineffective) just for the damage increase of Venomoth-gx's attack?

Edited by Yeesterbunny
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BukWyrm

Aromatic Energy makes Koga's Trap do no effect to the board state, it is similar to how you cannot play Hau when you have no deck, even though Hau can activate attacks that deal more damage if you have played a supporter this turn. The explanation of this effect is as follows:

 

Cardinal Rule: You cannot play a trainer for no effect, it must at least be possible to have an effect. 

 

Koga's Trap is unplayable vs Aromatic Energy since the special conditions cannot even be placed on the opponent's pokemon, this can be compared to playing Boss's Orders against an Axew with the Unnerve ability, Boss's Orders is still playable since Axew can still be targetted as an effect of Boss's Orders, however after the targetting, Boss's Orders' effects will have no effect on Axew due to Unnerve, but since the targetting can still apply onto Axew, Boss's Orders can still be played even if there are no other benched pokemon than Axew. 

Another thing to note is that the damage buff on Venemoth-GX after playing Koga's Trap is not an effect of Koga's Trap itself, **************** causes the opponent's Active Pokemon to become poisoned and confused, Venemoth-GX's attack is only a game state check to see if Koga's Trap was played this turn, hence it cannot be considered to be an effect of Koga's Trap, and hence Koga's Trap still has no effect against Aromatic Energy and hence cannot be played.

 

Please let me know if you're still confused

 

Best Regards

NerdWyrm

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OelBoy
Posted (edited)

@BukWyrm I believe you are wrong in this case.

As I commented in Yeesterbunny's other thread, I believe this would have to have the same interaction as Hypnotixic Laser + Virizion-EX + Grass Energy, to which the rules compendium says

Quote

Q. If I have Virizion EX on the bench and my Active Pokemon has a Grass Energy attached, would my opponent be able to play Hypnotoxic Laser since the Pokemon with Grass Energy attached "can't be affected by special conditions"? A. The opponent can play Hypnotoxic Laser, but its effect would be blocked. (Aug 15, 2013 TPCi Rules Team)

 

Edited by OelBoy
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Yeesterbunny

@BukWyrm I wasn't confused at all. I think this is a case of interface user friendliness overreach. Rather than completely prevent "ineffective" card plays it should pop up a context box like when you play a draw card that results in fewer cards in your hand. The interface should enforce the rules and possibly discourage ineffective plays  but not prevent you from making legal plays that are ineffective.

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IceBeamTogetic
4 hours ago, Yeesterbunny said:

@BukWyrm I wasn't confused at all. I think this is a case of interface user friendliness overreach. Rather than completely prevent "ineffective" card plays it should pop up a context box like when you play a draw card that results in fewer cards in your hand. The interface should enforce the rules and possibly discourage ineffective plays  but not prevent you from making legal plays that are ineffective.

 

It's not friendliness overreach. You cannot play a trainer card when it is public knowledge that it will have no effect. For example, you cannot play Battle Compressor when you have no cards left in your deck.

 

@OelBoy cited a relevant ruling about Hypnotoxic Laser and Virizion EX. That ruling is seemingly in conflict with the Koga's Trap interaction this post was about, so an official distinction would be nice. If you can provide a game log, the devs can test to see if it's a bug.

 

 

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Yeesterbunny
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, IceBeamTogetic said:

 

You cannot play a trainer card when it is public knowledge that it will have no effect. For example, you cannot play Battle Compressor when you have no cards left in your deck.

The game will let you play a bodybuilding dumbbell on a basic that has no stage 1 evolution form. 

Edited by Yeesterbunny
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OelBoy
Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2021 at **** AM, Yeesterbunny said:

The game will let you play a bodybuilding dumbbell on a basic that has no stage 1 evolution form. 

 

That is another case. (Almost) Every Tool card says "Attach a Pokémon Tool to 1 of your Pokémon that doesn't already have a Pokémon Tool attached." This is the action that does take place when you play the card. And that effect doesn't care if after that action took place some other effect (which can even be on the Tool card itself as in the case of Dumbbell) prevents the Tool from doing anything.

Edited by OelBoy
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Soup1900

To further enhance what @OelBoy is saying, I have another example of what he's talking about. 

Ex: "I have a Primal Groudon EX on my bench along with a Lillie's Poke Doll and a Robo-Substitute. It is my opponents turn. They play Boss's Orders and try to gust of Groudon but Primal Grudon EX's Ancient Trait says that it CAN'T be affected be affected by Item and Supporters so the Boss's Orders doesn't do anything but they were still able to use it even though it had NO effect on Primal Groudon EX."

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Yeesterbunny

I think this particular case (Koga's Trap vs Aromatic energy) comes down to whether special conditions should be blocked.

It makes sense to me that aromatic energy should prevent special conditions (by blocking) rather than preventing an attempt to apply special conditions (i.e. preventing the card from being played at all).

I have filed a game bug ticket but I did not save the game log when it happened so I will attempt to recreate the situation in a friendly match so I can produce a log to send them.

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  • Yeesterbunny changed the title to Koga's Trap vs Aromatic Energy (Venomoth-GX)
Yeesterbunny

So I produced and emailed a game log to support and they replied that it is a known issue that has been forwarded to the dev. team and they are unable to provide regular updates regarding its resolution.

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BukWyrm

@Yeesterbunny nice to hear that more trainers have given their thoughts, this has no longer been about user interface friendliness, instead we're discussing about the judging perspective of whether a Koga's Trap would be allowed to be played with aromatic energy in play in the active. I listed Boss's orders vs Axew as it was an interaction between a supporter and an ability, I'm not as good as a judge as to determine whether the interaction between a supporter and a special energy would be the same, hence I proposed why this would be a possible reason as to why Koga's Trap was not playable, after reviewing the interaction between Virizion-EX and Hypnotoxic Laser, I would tend to believe that the same ruling would be applicable, would like to hear from TPCi for official ruling tho.

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Yeesterbunny

Well, while the wording in their reply implied that it is a bug that they are attempting to resolve it was still ambiguous enough that I can't be 100% sure. Given the minimal severity of this (how many people are actually effected by this?) there is likely no urgency on their part to clarify or resolve the matter. I'm not overly concerned about it but I did reply asking for clarification regarding how the rules are meant to apply out of curiosity.

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OelBoy

I'm also still curious and eager to hear their response.

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Yeesterbunny
Posted (edited)

So they replied to my questions with the exact same somewhat ambiguous response (other than "as previously stated" it is word for word):

As previously stated, This is actually a known issue and has been forwarded to the development team for further assessment. While we hope to have this issue resolved as soon as possible, we're unable to provide regular updates regarding its resolution.

 

I had asked if they could tell me the version number where this issue appears as I didn't see anything about it in the known issues threads.

I had also asked if the expected action I described was actually how things were supposed to happen.

 

Their response makes me wonder if they are able to provide any information other than canned responses.

Edited by Yeesterbunny
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Yeesterbunny

For those interested, I sent in another round of questions to support and they gave a much appreciated genuine response that provides some clarification:

 

Thank you for writing back in. The development team is aware of an issue where Koga's Trap cannot be played when an opponent's Active Pokemon is immune to Special Conditions or inflicted with "Super" Poison or Confusion. At this time we do not have an update on this issue but hope to have a fix potentially rolled out with the patch for this month. 

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Yeesterbunny

In the 2.8 Patch Notes:

 

Koga's Trap (UNB #177, 211, HIF #59): This card can now be played while the opponent's Active Pokémon has an effect that prevents it from being affected by Special Conditions, or while the opponent's Active Pokémon is affected by a Poisoned or Confused effect that places more than the normal amount of damage counters.

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