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Will shaymin-ex be banned soon?


Sumi83

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Hello guys . I have heard some rumours about some cards in expended that will maybe be banned in october, and one of them could be shaymin-ex. 

As we know, shaymin-ex has been broke with the combination of scoop-up, even though i don't think this card is a problem in expanded.

What do you guys think about it?

Should we start trade our shaymin's as soon as possible?

 

Have a good day everyone!

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I hope it won't be as I just got myself a playset after contemplating it for years :D

If ADP is any indicator, Shaymin won't be banned.

Scoop-Up net is way to versatile for getting banned.

 

If I had to take a guess I'd think TPCI would rather ban Fast Raid style attacks. But that might just be wishful thinking.

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Raticate555

Fast Raid is only good in Best of 1 games online for grinding the ladder and isn't competitive when it comes to real, best of 3, events. There are too many factors that cause it to lose such as the other player going first or them benching too many Pokemon.

 

Shaymin EX just makes the game faster which isn't really a negative effect. They only ban stuff that stops the other person from playing, promotes disgusting archetypes or destroys their latest deck (Eternatus VS Bellelba).

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  • 1 month later...

I'm still convinced banning Fast Raid cards in EXP would've been a better choice as it wouldn't have impaired such a multitude of decks. However, I can also unterstand TPCi trying to ban as few cards as possible. We'll see what the future holds.

Edited by OelBoy
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Otakutron

Might be stretching the limits of "on topic", but I'd rather they just tweaked the rules so that, on either player's first turn, we ignore all effects of attacks, including damage, done to the opposing player.  It is a kludge, and more complicated than the current option, but I think "setting up" attacks are very valuable, and a turn where we can use them while also giving both players time to evolve once would be a good thing.  I'd rather it was all "natural", caused by the powers-that-be simply designing the cards so that nothing could attack during that time, but that ship has long since sailed.

Edited by Otakutron
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The biggest problem with Fast Raid + Shaymin decks was how it turned the game into Solitaire. Because most (if not all) FR players were more concerned with getting rewards rather than playing the game. This led to "either I win or I quit"-scenarios. If they didn't go first they pretty much had to concede. If they didn't or even couldn't realistically win on the first turn they also conceded. On top of that, many opponents conceded because they would rather play the game than watch another person play. All in all this led to games which had an over 50% chance to end by one player conceding and pretty much all of them ended on turn 1. This took the focus off of playing the game on to merely winning the game, ultimately hoping your numbers would go up with as little player interaction as possible.

If you just count the win:loss ratio those decks weren't too good (Especially in a best of X tournament setting, making them nearly unplayable there - not just because the other participants would hate your guts).  However, in the exact setting of playing online ladder/ events these decks were just very unhealthy for the game.

Fast raid was designed to give you a slight edge, not turn games into a concede-fest.

 

As I'd stated before: I'd rather TPCi just got rid of Fast Raid Pokemon (As I don't really see how they would see any real play now that Shaymin is gone) and not take away a card which enabled a multitude of combos, but they will have their reasons.

Edited by OelBoy
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13 hours ago, OelBoy said:

The biggest problem with Fast Raid + Shaymin decks was how it turned the game into Solitaire. Because most (if not all) FR players were more concerned with getting rewards rather than playing the game. This led to "either I win or I quit"-scenarios. If they didn't go first they pretty much had to concede. If they didn't or even couldn't realistically win on the first turn they also conceded. On top of that, many opponents conceded because they would rather play the game than watch another person play.

 

This has been my opinion as well - Solitaire.  After all, we are here to have enjoyable games with each other and decks that only allow one player to play are not healthy for the gaming environment.  I don't think much of people who play "solitaire" decks.  Winning is fun but do you relly want to do it at the expense of another players time  enjoyment?    I have can have fun playing whether I win or loose.  I get frustrated when a deck bricks but that just shows me I need to work on the deck.  Losses lead to learning, innovation and even inspiraton for whole new deck.  But playing agains "Solitaire" decks is another expeience entirely - Even when you have a deck that will beat them.   Sometime I only have 30 minutes to play a couple of games and I end up facing people taking incredibly long turns to cycle through their deck while I sit and wait and watch.  I can concede but then I might just run up against another similar deck.

 

In disgust at Fast Raid Donk and all those other broken shaymin combos I built a spread deck  to be resistant to the fastraid donk and to be an (almost) autowin against Untra Necrozma / Mad Party / Night March / Lost March / Nuzzle / Roaring Resolve and Pretty Much All Mill & Stall Decks along with any deck that left a bunch of shaymins hanging around.  It even beat Trev/Gengar Most ofthe time and trashed Mewto&Mew and all Fire decks.  It was a fair matchup against most other decks and so I had a lot of long fun battles with it along with the pleasure of smashing those anoying broken decks.

 

 I used to leave the room when I met a fast raid donk and grab a snack, change the laundry etc.  Since I often benched a V  on set up unless their coinflips went perfect they would end up without the KO and quit.   If I benched a V and any other pokemon the would 99%  Quit immediatley.

 

With the Ban on Shaymin EX I am hoping for an explosion of variety in expanded.  My only fear is that main META decks -  ADP / Eternatus / Centiscorch / Pikarom / Mewtwo / L&M  will now dominate expanded  like thay do in standard without shaymin ex to support combos that can fight them and that this could kill the opportunity for diversity that banning shaymin ex creates.

 

Shaymin EX created it's own kind of diversity but those decks that cannot substitute crobat are mostly decks that are not very much fun to play against.  

 

I did use two Shaymin ex in my deck but no scoop up nets becasue I know how I felt when playing against a 4 shaymin 4 scoop deck.  I'll switch to crobats now.   they won't mesh as well, but  it won't destroy the deck since I never relied on the scoops.

 

I do think they should have used errata to limit the Set Up ability to once per turn.  That would have completely rebalanced the card.  Maybe someday XY will be part of legacy and shaymin can thrive were it was born.

 

Until then I am so happy I'll never have to wait through another three minute turn while my opponent uses Shaymin / Scoop to cycles through most or all of their deck!

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OliverTwisting

Hate to out myself as a (former) Donk player, but I do want to contribute an alternative perspective.

 

Prior to my building a Donk deck, it took me an average of 1 hour and 45 minutes to complete 12 wins. After building a Donk deck, it took an average of just 45 minutes. Some days, I simply do not have the time to complete the ladder rewards! I understand that having daily rewards keeps people playing, which keeps wait times short. This is definitely a good thing. On the other hand, requiring 1.5-2 hours per day is a big ask. This in my opinion is the underlying problem. I would prefer, for example, 6 ladder rewards instead of 12, with additional coins for additional wins (say, 10 or 15 instead of 5). I think this would relieve some of the pressure to win as quickly as possible.

 

Regarding the amount of damage that can be achieved: I was able to reach 210 damage about 60% of the time, 220 about 15% of the time, and a couple times I hit 230 or 240 (without weaknesses). This is possible by playing a lean, Pheromosa-GX-only variant. I used just one Pheromosa-GX, with 2 Beast Balls in case the Pheromosa was prized. The advantage here is that Shaymin-Ex and Bicycle can typically be used to draw more cards, since there isn't a spare Latios-EX taking up space in the hand or on the bench. I ran 1 Beast Energy and 1 Grass Energy. Both energies have been prized, but statistically this happens in just 1% of games, so not a big deal. All that said, I conceded against anything above 210 HP, since it'd be much faster to find a new game than to spend 3-4 minutes attempting to hit 220. I would certainly go for 210 HP, and routinely made it (and yes, on occasion, whiffed). For an opponent, it's lame to watch someone play solitaire, but they have the option of conceding or checking their email or these forums. Donk decks are pretty transparent after the first couple cards played, so any opponent who cares less about the ladder rewards can move on.

 

Also to be clear: I have been donked plenty of times. I absolutely know how it feels like from both sides, and, well, when it happens, I usually shrug and quit and move on to the next game, losing all of 1-1.5 minutes of my time. I tolerate it because I get it: the ladder takes more time than some people have, so Donk makes sense for people who are limited in time.

 

I think I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'll end here. But I hope I provided a bit of the unpopular perspective without coming off as too defensive. I think I'm just bummed about the 22 packs I spent last week for a full art Shaymin-Ex that I was lucky to recoup 3 packs for yesterday. :p

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Otakutron
3 hours ago, OliverTwisting said:

I think I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'll end here. But I hope I provided a bit of the unpopular perspective without coming off as too defensive. I think I'm just bummed about the 22 packs I spent last week for a full art Shaymin-Ex that I was lucky to recoup 3 packs for yesterday. 😛

 

I'm rather surprised you could only get 3 packs for it, as a Full Art of a card that used to be metagame relevant I expected it to be worth at least a little more.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll hold onto my Shaymin-EX (ROS) until the value rebounds a little.  If it never does, it actually isn't too much of a problem; I was fortunate to pull one (trade-locked) version when XY - Roaring Skies was new, and then quickly traded for more.  So I've more than gotten my packs worth for them. :)

 

Oh, and as for the grind... yeah, I get it.  It is a Catch-22; do you worry about what makes things better just for you, or try to consider others?  I do my grinding in the Theme Format, and I long ago stopped worrying about completing the Reward Ladder.  I realized that the time I was spending earning it all was better put towards something else.  For those who are gainfully employed, or at least able to earn some spending money through doing chores and the like, there's a real question of how much more you can earn to just buy physical packs (or Redemption Code cards) versus slogging through the Reward Ladder.  Even free-to-players need to consider how much they could be doing via "serious" trading.  Though I suspect you're already seriously into trading.

 

I do know what it is like when people hate a deck you enjoy using.  I am rather fond of Night March, including when it was arguably the top deck in the Standard Format.  Since I ran it, I also knew it was far from this broken monstrosity... and how the deck would be almost totally dead if Double Colorless Energy weren't legal.  So a lot of the "Ban this [non-DCE card]!"  or "Night March is broken!" comments annoyed me.

Edited by Otakutron
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I had three trade locked copies of Shaymin EX since Roaring Skies were the most recent expansion. But I've never use it in my decks because 30 damage is low, 110 HP is low as heck, colorless pokemon doesn't hit anything for weakness and I can draw cards with items/supporters rather than wasting a bench space and placing easy target for any annoying gusting card (Lysandre, Guzma, Boss's Orders, list goes on...)

But about a month and a half ago, I decided to make a DONK deck. I traded away most of my not-trade-locked cards for two Pheromosa GX, four Seviper, two choice bands, four recycles, some super scoop-ups and my fourth Shaymin EX. 

I've tried this deck, and it isn't THAT powerful - sometimes I can't find my Beast energy, sometimes I got too many tails in coin flips for Super Scoop-Up, sometimes starting hand doesn't have Shaymin-EX or Quick Ball/Ultra Ball to find etc. I have approximately 45 wins to 90 loses ratio with that deck.

And now I feel myself stupid for wasting SO much resources on the deck I will not be able to play in a month in the future. Shaymin EX alone cost me one rainbow rare Volcarona GX and one usual Venusaur & Celebi Tag Team GX. Both Pheromosa GX were even more valuable (never have I ever before traded three to six my GX cards for someone's else one GX card)

 

Yeah I of course will try to edit this deck in december. Maybe replace four reusable Shaymin-EX with one-time-use Dedenne GX and Crobat V, maybe add four Unown to draw four extra cards, but I have doubts it would work, and it doesn't change the fact it was complete waste of valuable resources on my side.

Edited by Kostyurik
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