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Sakura150612

Bellelba & Brycen-Man and Mismagius banned from Standard; Errata for both cards announced

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Sakura150612
Posted (edited)

Apparently this was announced today. Starting from the new rotation (August 28th), Bellelba & Brycen-Man and Mismagius will no longer be a thing in Standard. They'll still both be valid in Expanded though, this is just a Standard ban. I honestly cannot remember the last time a card was banned only from Standard. LTC was the last card (that I can remember at least) to be banned while it was still Standard valid, but even then it was banned from both formats, so unless memory is failing me here (which honestly it might be) this would be a first.

 

What's even stranger though is that it was announced that both cards will eventually be re-released with an errata. There's no actual information on what the errata will be, but it will probably consist of a nerf on the effects that made them problematic in the first place.

 

Welp, I know at least one person who will be happy about this. *cough* *cough* @guruguy87 *cough* *cough*

 

To my defense, I never would have minded a Bellelba & Brycen-Man ban. I just didn't think it deserved a ban, but I'm not exactly sad to see it go either.

Edited by Sakura150612
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Dirnt54

I believe that the TPCi has said something along the lines of "since there aren't any Expanded Play! Pokemon events in the near future we aren't doing anything about the Expanded format right now" which leads me to believe that Bellelba & Brycen-Man and Mismaguis will get banned in Expanded as soon as it begins to matter in tournaments. 

 

I'll miss Bellelba & Brycen-Man as a one-of in my Excadrill deck, but it's not really heartbreaking. 

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ellomello044208
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Sakura150612 said:

They'll still both be valid in Expanded though, this is just a Standard ban.

Mismagius has actually also been banned in Expanded for quite a while now, due to the Jirachi Island Amulet deck which used Mismagius in combination with Dusk Stone to hand the opponent Prize cards before completely removing the opponent's hand.

 

The only aspect of Bellelba and Brycen-man that I'll miss is the potential to use the card to limit your opponent's Bench size, a creative tech for Eternatus VMAX decks.

Edited by ellomello044208
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Sakura150612
2 minutes ago, ellomello044208 said:

Mismagius has actually also been banned in Expanded for quite a while now, due to the Jirachi Island Amulet deck which used Mismagius in combination with Dusk Stone to hand the opponent Prize cards before completely removing the opponent's hand.

 

The only aspect of Bellelba and Brycen-man that I'll miss is the potential to use the card to limit your opponent's Bench size, a creative tech for Eternatus VMAX decks.

True, I forgot about that.

 

13 minutes ago, Dirnt54 said:

I believe that the TPCi has said something along the lines of "since there aren't any Expanded Play! Pokemon events in the near future we aren't doing anything about the Expanded format right now" which leads me to believe that Bellelba & Brycen-Man and Mismaguis will get banned in Expanded as soon as it begins to matter in tournaments. 

 

I'll miss Bellelba & Brycen-Man as a one-of in my Excadrill deck, but it's not really heartbreaking. 

Thanks for adding that; I literally just read this info off an article in Pokebeach and it didn't their reasoning for not touching the card in Epanded (that, or I skimmed to fast and didn't notice it xd).

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guruguy87
Posted (edited)

Boom. I nailed this. (probably shouldn't need to boast, but hey I'm gonna) Way ahead of everyone else saying "the card is fine"... Not fine... Errata coming for both cards...I can about guarantee the errata on brycin man will simply state "You can only play this card if you have at least 3 cards in your deck" and for mismagius I honestly believe this is because of dusk stone and the combo it creates on turn 1. The ability will probably have adjust/errata so you cannot use it turn 1. It does seem odd though are banned from standard, but not from expanded. Maybe from expanded will also come soon? That is most likely...

Yes, I'm quite happy although a part of me will miss these cards in standard. (very small part of me, lol)

Edited by guruguy87
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Otakutron
2 hours ago, guruguy87 said:

It does seem odd though are banned from standard, but not from expanded. Maybe from expanded will also come soon?

 

Mismagius is already banned in Expanded.

 

Pretty sure both cards were banned because of a specific, recent deck in Japan... but I never got around to learning what the deck was, beyond being some sort of stall/mill.  It is interesting they've made it clear that tweaked versions of the cards are going to be released.  I mean, it isn't like that has never happened, but it is usually handled with a combination of errata and reprint(s): see Pokémon Catcher.

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OliverTwisting

As a mill player, I am very disappointed. :( But such is life! I'll have to find a new, not-too-expensive way to compete in the meta!

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darkness018

I don’t get this ban I play a lot of standard and never come across those cards lol must be lucky or it’s not beening use as much as it sounds like

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OliverTwisting

It must have something to do with the post-rotation format. Mill currently sees relatively little play. A look at all the RCL-included tournaments at Limitless TCG reveals 3 Cincinno Control decks out of 120 as top-30 finishers. Contrast that with Dragapult, Blacephalon, Zacian ADP or Combo...  Mill is, in my very biased opinion, not at all problematic in the current meta. :)

 

Here's to hoping that whatever version they release in October still enables Mill to function. Again, in my extraordinarily biased opinion!

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Dirnt54
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, OliverTwisting said:

It must have something to do with the post-rotation format. Mill currently sees relatively little play. A look at all the RCL-included tournaments at Limitless TCG reveals 3 Cincinno Control decks out of 120 as top-30 finishers. Contrast that with Dragapult, Blacephalon, Zacian ADP or Combo...  Mill is, in my very biased opinion, not at all problematic in the current meta. :)

 

Here's to hoping that whatever version they release in October still enables Mill to function. Again, in my extraordinarily biased opinion!

 

My opinion may or may not be biased as well, since I dislike playing against mill decks ;) 

 

But if we take a look at the top 16 of the biggest (200+ player unofficial national championships) tournament in Japan with Darkness Ablaze legal, we see:

 

1 Lucario & Melmetal/Zacian

1 Pikarom

1 Centiskorch VMAX

1 Dustox/Cryogonal lock

2 Baby Blowns

2 Vikavolt V

3 Eternatus VMAX

5 Cincinno Mill 

 

This is an inordinate amount of mill decks for any tournament. I think mill has a definite place in the game, but I don't think mill should ever be a "good" deck in the sense that someone trying to place highly at a tournament will pick it - I believe mill as a strategy should be viable enough that people who want to play mill can play it and expect not to get flattened. I don't think it should be a major part of the meta as it is in Japan right now, which is why I'm glad Bellelba & Brycen-Man is being banned.

Edited by Dirnt54
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OliverTwisting

@Dirnt54 Oh wow, I didn't realize. Thanks for the information - I absolutely agree, that's a pretty crazy showing for Mill, and I agree that Mill should never dominate the field.

 

I guess I'll enjoy it for now while it's still viable!

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Raticate555

You guys are so Millist😀!  Mill has a place in the game but it shouldn't be a good deck? The first half of the sentence negates the second. If Mill wasn't good nobody, except crazy people such as myself, would play it. Mismagius hand lock combo should be banned if it is consistent, following the bans of the last couple of years but I think Bellelba probably got the rough end of the deal. In my biased opinion (I have to say that before what I am about to say), mill I think is currently in, and heading towards with rotation, a good place for everyone to be happy with the meta. Oranguru rotates, Magcargo GX rotates and ADP stays at the top. These factors I would think would be enough to beat down any mill decks after rotation. That being said, I haven't tested after rotation and even those who have tested can't say exactly what is going to happen. We shall see what the erratas are and see what happens after rotation because maybe this rant might end up being irrelevant. 😀

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Dirnt54
17 minutes ago, Raticate555 said:

You guys are so Millist😀!  Mill has a place in the game but it shouldn't be a good deck? The first half of the sentence negates the second. If Mill wasn't good nobody, except crazy people such as myself, would play it. 

 

Reading back over my original post, I can see how you could have gotten this impression, but it's not what I was trying to say :)

 

I meant that mill has a place in the game and should be a good deck, it just shouldn't be a meta deck. Even people who love mill must admit that a mill-dominated format would cause problems. IMO, Mill should always be a good and viable deck that has a 10% share of the meta on its best day and a 1% on its worst. 

 

Good point about the post-rotation, though, we really don't know what's coming for mill decks in the future. We'll just have to see.

 

As for Bellelba & Brycen-Man, nobody seems to know whether it was banned for the first effect in mill decks or if TCPi is actually banning it for the second effect as an easy Eternatus counter. 

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Raticate555
4 hours ago, Dirnt54 said:

 

Reading back over my original post, I can see how you could have gotten this impression, but it's not what I was trying to say :)

 

I meant that mill has a place in the game and should be a good deck, it just shouldn't be a meta deck. Even people who love mill must admit that a mill-dominated format would cause problems. IMO, Mill should always be a good and viable deck that has a 10% share of the meta on its best day and a 1% on its worst. 

 

Good point about the post-rotation, though, we really don't know what's coming for mill decks in the future. We'll just have to see.

 

As for Bellelba & Brycen-Man, nobody seems to know whether it was banned for the first effect in mill decks or if TCPi is actually banning it for the second effect as an easy Eternatus counter. 

 

I agree with everything here, well said.

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guruguy87

The more we see such major heavy draw support like dedenne gx, crobat V, professor research, acro bike and many other drawing cards (birdkeeper, cincinnio, sylvally gx, many more) IS IS IS IS the exact reason why Mill was being played so heavily in Japan. The current format (ready to be here soon with darkness ablaze) has many popular cards in it that are about insane draw power and when that is the case the obvious and relevant counter to that is to play various forms of mill decks. They WILL continue to be a thing even without brycen man, just because it is logical in the current turbo draw power heavy meta. 

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squiderp12
3 hours ago, guruguy87 said:

The more we see such major heavy draw support like dedenne gx, crobat V, professor research, acro bike and many other drawing cards (birdkeeper, cincinnio, sylvally gx, many more) IS IS IS IS the exact reason why Mill was being played so heavily in Japan. The current format (ready to be here soon with darkness ablaze) has many popular cards in it that are about insane draw power and when that is the case the obvious and relevant counter to that is to play various forms of mill decks. They WILL continue to be a thing even without brycen man, just because it is logical in the current turbo draw power heavy meta. 

Oh yeah, didn't think of that when I saw the ban. There IS still Centiskorch and Palossand for milling. They're now just greatly weakened due to the ban.

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OliverTwisting

Out of curiosity, where can one find stats/decklists from decks in Japan? I was actually trying to come up with a Centiskorch-centered Mill deck, but it seems... subpar at best. I'm also not fond of any of the Palossand decks I've seen, although maybe there's a way to make it work? The main challenge is that you can't mill with a Poke Doll in the active spot, which makes these decks extremely vulnerable (essentially non-viable in my opinion) against ADP.

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Dirnt54
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, OliverTwisting said:

Out of curiosity, where can one find stats/decklists from decks in Japan? I was actually trying to come up with a Centiskorch-centered Mill deck, but it seems... subpar at best. I'm also not fond of any of the Palossand decks I've seen, although maybe there's a way to make it work? The main challenge is that you can't mill with a Poke Doll in the active spot, which makes these decks extremely vulnerable (essentially non-viable in my opinion) against ADP.

 

It's probably not the easiest or fastest source, but I get my information from an online video channel called Ptcgradio. Not exactly a list of stats though. And I don't know whether Japan has any post-rotation lists yet. 

Edited by Dirnt54
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ellomello044208
21 minutes ago, OliverTwisting said:

Out of curiosity, where can one find stats/decklists from decks in Japan? I was actually trying to come up with a Centiskorch-centered Mill deck, but it seems... subpar at best. I'm also not fond of any of the Palossand decks I've seen, although maybe there's a way to make it work? The main challenge is that you can't mill with a Poke Doll in the active spot, which makes these decks extremely vulnerable (essentially non-viable in my opinion) against ADP.

Centiskorch and Palossand just can't compare to the reliable power of Cinccino Mill. Centiskorch is quite a meme and has an unreliable setup, as it requires 2 Stage 2 Pokemon, Typhlosion and Porygon-Z, in play to make use of Triple Acceleration Energy and other Special Energy. You can also run the deck with just a Welder engine, but the deck is better that way with Moltres TEU who has essentially the same attack except Moltres has to discard all energy attached. Palossand lacks the power of Centiskorch in terms of milling, a Welder engine Centiskorch will mill just as many cards as Palossand if you get just 3 fire energy onto Centiskorch and a Cursed Shovel. Another mill deck that's been somewhat forgotten is Rhydon Mill. Rhydon UNB mills 5 cards if you played Giovanni's Exile during your turn, something achievable with Lt. Surge's Strategy which will allow you to keep the consistency of playing other Supporter cards. Discarding Diglett with the effect of Giovanni's Exile will discard an additional card from the top of your opponent's deck, helping you get some extra mill power in. At most, with Cursed Shovel, 2 Diglett, and Rhydon using Dirty Work, you can mill 9 cards a turn, as many as a Cinccino deck using Mimikyu CEC for Impersonation. The deck isn't as reliable as Cinccino Mill for sure, but it's more effective at milling than either Centiskorch or Palossand. You can also try using the Toxtricity who should be coming out in Darkness Ablaze, its attack mills 5 cards from your opponent's deck, if you can flip heads.

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OliverTwisting

Wow, thanks @ellomello044208 for the very thorough reply. As a newcomer (started after the release of SSH) I wasn't aware of a lot of those options. Not that any of them seem too competitive, but that's plenty to think about while I collect enough packs to join whatever standard meta steamroller is popular post-rotation. :p

 

Toxtricity is kindof funny... I guess you could slap something together with Will to make it semi-consistent, but the prize card risk still seems too high to ever make it a serious contender.

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Raticate555

Toxtricity Glimwood Tangle could be a possible mill combo, would lose to ADP though.

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oTurtles

Did they release any reasoning behind this ban? Well who knows right, maybe someone found a pretty broken combo or possibly cards yet to come which would really be too much.

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Otakutron
4 hours ago, oTurtles said:

Did they release any reasoning behind this ban? Well who knows right, maybe someone found a pretty broken combo or possibly cards yet to come which would really be too much.

 

Yeah.  Here's a link to the official announcement, but I'll also copy/paste it below:

 

Quote

Sword & Shield—Darkness Ablaze Banned List and Rule Changes Announcement

Announcement Date: July 30, 2020

Effective Date: August 28, 2020

 

Standard format

Bellelba & Brycen-Man (Sun & Moon—Cosmic Eclipse, 186/236) is now banned in the Standard format.

Mismagius (Sun & Moon—Unbroken Bonds, 78/214) is now banned in the Standard format.

 

Expanded format

No changes have been made to the banned card list for the Expanded format.

The list of banned cards for the Standard and Expanded formats can be found here.

 

Next Announcement Date: October 23, 2020

 

Details of Changes

Two cards were banned in the Standard format. The reasoning for these changes is below:

  • These card bans were issued in Japan recently. In an effort to maintain a more global Standard format experience, TPCi has also banned these cards.

  • Control decks and mill decks (strategies that try to discard all the cards from the opponent's deck) have a place in the Pokémon TCG, but when they become too powerful, the play environment becomes less enjoyable. Bellelba & Brycen-Man has been identified as the card that makes these decks highly effective in tournament play. In an effort to reduce the strength of control decks and mill decks, Bellelba & Brycen-Man has been banned.

  • Hand destruction decks can be similarly unenjoyable to play against when they consistently achieve their goal. With the addition of Crobat V in Sword & Shield—Darkness Ablaze, there are some hand destruction combos with Mismagius, Dusk Stone, and Reset Stamp that can be achieved more consistently on the first or second turn of the game. In an effort to break up these combos, Mismagius has been banned.

There are no major Play! Pokémon tournaments using the Expanded format in the near future, so no cards will be banned from that format yet. Based on recent results, it's clear that there are some issues with the current Expanded format environment, but those problems will be addressed in a future update.

Tournament results and community feedback will continue to be analyzed to maintain a healthy play environment. In particular, the Expanded format will be aggressively monitored because there are so many cards and potential combinations available to use.

 

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oTurtles
14 minutes ago, Otakutron said:

 

Yeah.  Here's a link to the official announcement, but I'll also copy/paste it below:

 

 

I never found mill decks to be an issue, sure they are annoying sometimes but that's not ban worthy imho. Also eternatus V and VMax exists that thing sounds broken when i first saw it. Unless you running a direct counter its going to be one of the cards to watch out for.

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Otakutron
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, oTurtles said:

I never found mill decks to be an issue, sure they are annoying sometimes but that's not ban worthy imho.

 

My understanding is that cards we're about to receive make them much more annoying.  I don't have much time, and it is dangerous to share information you're not certain of... but I think it there's basically a combo that allows Cincinno Mill to lock down your attacks.  Unfortunately, the general policy is to ban the oldest cards in a problem combo or deck, not necessarily the card(s) causing the biggest problem.

 

8 hours ago, oTurtles said:

Also eternatus V and VMax exists that thing sounds broken when i first saw it.

 

To be fair, how many cards have you honestly described the same way?  If it is rare for you, understand that, for the rest of us, we're used to stuff not living up to the hype.  This isn't me saying Eternatus V/Max won't be a strong new deck.  It may even wind up a problem... but there's no guarantee.

 

8 hours ago, oTurtles said:

Unless you running a direct counter its going to be one of the cards to watch out for.

 

SOP is that a counter for it will release within the next two sets core sets (and associated releases).  It is just how they do things in Pokémon.

 

Something you didn't comment on was Mismagius.  The irony is that I think Mismagius is a clear case of the "wrong" card being banned. Well, "irony" might be the wrong word... but hopefully you get the idea.  To me, it makes more sense to ban Reset Stamp or Dusk Stone.

Edited by Otakutron

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