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No more double-damage weakness please!


JasperSmith802
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Is it just me or does the double-damage weakness get a bit frustrating (by a bit, I mean a lot)?  Especially with the increasing damage dealt with every new generation of Pokémon, it is so incredibly unbalanced.  I see cards that aren’t allowed because of balance issues but they seem like nothing compared to weakness.  I agree with having weakness, but can we get an extra 20, 50, or 60 damage instead of twice the damage?!  When you potentially have hits over a thousand, it’s too much.  I don’t like being the loser OR the winner when weakness is in the mix.  It feels like a cheap win or an uneven loss.  Does anybody feel like me???

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Hi JasperSmith802, and welcome! Certainly double damage appears like a lot when you can't plan for it, but when you've picked up a lot of experience with the game, you learn to anticipate it. First, you have to have some sense for what decks you're likely to encounter. For example, with a lot of Welder-based decks in the meta, you'll have a tough time playing grass-type decks without something like Weakness Guard Energy (and ways to search for it) to mitigate the liability of facing Fire decks. This isn't always easy to do, but it is a part of the game. Smaller increases in damage for weakness would actually make GX/V/VMAX pokemon even more difficult to handle. For example, the fire weakness of Zacian V is a real liability - Metal Frying Pan is a way to remove this weakness, but it will soon rotate out of Standard format. People relying on Zacian V, which is an otherwise extremely powerful card, will have to figure out ways to play around Fire decks, and as a result, might spend crucial card slots not preparing for other types of decks.

 

Out of curiosity, what format do you play and what kind of decks do you like?

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Like @OliverTwisting said, Weakness affects what decks can and can't be played. Decks that have Weakness to a major deck in the meta (i.e.: Gardevoir and Sylveon GX is weak to Zacian V), aren't as playable as those who don't have Weakness to major decks in the format. Weakness also gives the potential for under-rated or forgotten cards, like Scrafty UNM, to shine if they hit Weakness on major Pokemon, Dragapult VMAX in Scrafty's case. Some of these cards are such good counters to meta decks, take Buzzwole FLI for example, that they are used in decks just to deal with the big Pokemon, like Pikarom.

Edited by ellomello044208
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20 hours ago, JasperSmith802 said:

Is it just me or does the double-damage weakness get a bit frustrating (by a bit, I mean a lot)?

 

It isn't just you.  While I most definitely can anticipate it, I do not feel the multiplier form of Weakness makes any sense, at least in the TCG (we won't worry about the video game).  Before the first Sword & Shield cards dropped, I'd hoped we'd see a shift to something like +20 damage for Weakness and -20 for Resistance.  Type-matching would thus provide an edge comparable to a Muscle Band, but not a massive swing.

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I agree with Jasper, its almost a guaranteed loss (except Psychic). Attacks and energy acceleration are so powerful now. They should just make Weakness +30 and Resistance -30.

Edited by aecm90
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However, it should be noted that we're kind of talking about this topic in the wrong place.  Game Feedback is mostly for the Dev Team who handle the PTCGO.  I guess they could pass stuff along to TPCi, who could pass it along to TPC and Pokémon Card Laboratories (might be off on some of those names), but my point is we're a long way removed from the Japanese portion of the company which handles the TCG's game mechanics. XD

 

If y'all already knew that, sorry for stating the obvious. ^^'  Some of you are newer faces, so I figured better safe than sorry.

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The double damage weakness is good to counter some of the op Pokémon they don’t need to change it

Edited by darkness018
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On 7/30/2020 at 8:18 AM, darkness018 said:

The double damage weakness is good to counter some of the op Pokémon they don’t need to change it

 

Or they could... y'know... not make OP Pokémon. :D  You did remind me of a few more things that ought to be clarified:

  • We're discussing changing how future cards would be designed...
  • ...not some change to how the current cards work.
  • Something similar has been tried before...
  • ...but executed about as poorly as possible.

One last thing: I'll add that to me, this is just one of several changes to how the card are designed that I think would be beneficial to this game.  I'm not even an amateur game designer, though, let alone a pro.  What I am is someone who's been since 1999, and I've seen some things work and some things not, and noticed that some of the things that haven't worked keep getting repeated without substantial change to fix what went wrong the last time.

Edited by Otakutron
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I personally don't mind 2x weakness, but I've always felt that resistance was underblown.  It seems like the two should be similarly powerful.  Having a multiplier is very convenient for weakness, but for resistance, a multiplier would cause damage in the fives, which would cause...  Exactly no problems whatsoever, except for some reprogramming and a ruling on what a damage counter means.  The other option would just be to round, probably up.

 

If the power of weakness were reduced, that would be fine, but I don't know how you would execute it.  A blanket modifier would disproportionately affect low-HP pokemon, and make ten-damage attacks hugely more powerful.

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Excellent points, @SuperStone.  You most likely hit on why they didn't do a flat +X modifier when they tried switching from x2 Weakness in the Diamond & Pearl series.

 

I think there is a simple answer though; it is still a preferable "trade".  I mean, look at the numbers, which I'll put behind Spoiler Tags for anyone who does not need to see them:

 


 

Spoiler

 

When attacking into Weakness...

 

...attacks that do 10 damage now OHKO Pokémon with 30 or 40 HP (nothing printed with under 30 HP).

...attacks that do 20 damage now OHKO Pokémon with 50 or less HP (before it was only 40 or less HP).

...attacks that do 30 damage still OHKO Pokémon with with 60 or less HP (same as before).

...attacks that do 40 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 80 HP (70 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 50 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 90 or 100 HP (80 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 60 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 100 to 120 HP (90 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 70 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 110 to 140 HP (100 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 80 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 120 to 160 HP (110 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 90 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 130 to 180 HP (120 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 100 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 140 to 200 HP (130 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 110 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 150 to 220 HP (140 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 120 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 160 to 240 HP (150 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 130 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 170 to 260 HP (160 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 140 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 180 to 280 HP (170 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 150 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 190 to 300 HP (180 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 160 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 200 to 320 HP (190 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 170 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 210 to 340 HP (200 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 180 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 220 to 360 HP (210 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 190 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 230 to 380 HP (220 or less HP still OHKO'd).

...attacks that do 200 damage no longer OHKO Pokémon with 240 to 400 HP (230 or less HP still OHKO'd).

 

Etc.

 

 

Seems like a good deal to me; attacks that do 10 or 20 damage are a little more likely to take a OHKO (via Weakness) but in exchange, attacks that do 40+ are not only less likely, but increasingly less likely.  If you want to OHKO a 340 HP target, Weakness lets you do it for 170 HP under the current system; under the proposed system, you'd still need to do 310 "on your own", but Weakness would expand your coverage to include 320, 330, and 340.

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I can see your reasoning, but from a wider perspective, why would the Pokémon card designers thing that there is a need for a very impactful resistance as well as a very impactful weakness when creating a metagame? Usually, if a player is worried about a particularly strong deck they'll tech in something strong that hits that deck for weakness, and I can't really see why adding an impactful resistance would add to the game when we already have weakness as an equalizer. More likely it'd just make designing the cards and creating a healthy and balanced metagame a nightmare for the card designers. 

 

I guess you could argue that you make weakness irrelevant to the point resistance is now, and then add an impactful resistance, but it seems like they'd do the same thing in the end (creating options for players to play cards to counter other cards) BUT a strong resistance would make the game slower and the strong weakness we have now just speeds the game up.   

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Yeah, @Dirnt54, my desire for resistance isn't really based in game design.  It would add a stronger typing element to the game, but typing is something that can't really be diversified for most decks, so that's not necessarily a good thing.  It's based more in a) replicating the battle format of the video games and b) the idea that if it exists, it should actually do something.  While weakness does occasionally win games, resistance virtually never does.

 

I guess what I'm really saying is that it should be all or nothing, and if they aren't ever going to make resistance worthwhile they should just eliminate it.

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2 hours ago, Dirnt54 said:

I can see your reasoning, but from a wider perspective, why would the Pokémon card designers thing that there is a need for a very impactful resistance as well as a very impactful weakness when creating a metagame?

 

Unfortunately, these mechanics are almost as iconic to Pokémon as evolution.  If there is an option to just remove Weakness/Resistance, I'm okay with that.  I appreciate what they mean to the video games, but I think its doesn't add enough to the TCG to justify the extra layer of complexity.  I don't just mean for the players, but the designers. Which ties into why you don't want Resistance to be more impactful... I think.

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4 hours ago, SuperStone said:

Yeah, @Dirnt54, my desire for resistance isn't really based in game design.  It would add a stronger typing element to the game, but typing is something that can't really be diversified for most decks, so that's not necessarily a good thing.  It's based more in a) replicating the battle format of the video games and b) the idea that if it exists, it should actually do something.  While weakness does occasionally win games, resistance virtually never does.

 

I guess what I'm really saying is that it should be all or nothing, and if they aren't ever going to make resistance worthwhile they should just eliminate it.

 

Hey, I understand. Theme is pretty important to a game - especially with a theming as popular as Pokémon - and while it's hard to tie in theme from both the video game and the animated series, it sucks when you feel something is underrepresented as a game mechanic.

 

Maybe I would feel more strongly about this if I was interested in Pokémon as a whole though, I didn't really grow up with it and the TCG is pretty much my only connection to the universe. 

 

As it is, purely from a game design perspective, I think the current system is working pretty well for the game. Maybe we could see resistance increase to -40 or -50 as the next collection of sets after Sword and Shield are released? Maybe even sooner we could have a Tool, Stadium, or Ability that makes Resistance more impactful? Those would be nice, but I don't think we'll ever see a resistance that's impactful in the way weakness is. 

 

Although it's an unusual occurrence, resistance can matter a lot. At the 2018 World Championships, resistance to Fighting type was (I'm assuming) was one of the reasons some contenders decided to play decks around Banette-GX, which went on to win the Senior division that year. If you watch the finals match you'll notice the commentators talking about the resistance a fair amount, and that -20 damage helping avoid some crucial KO's.

 

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1 hour ago, Dirnt54 said:

As it is, purely from a game design perspective, I think the current system is working pretty well for the game. Maybe we could see resistance increase to -40 or -50 as the next collection of sets after Sword and Shield are released? Maybe even sooner we could have a Tool, Stadium, or Ability that makes Resistance more impactful? Those would be nice, but I don't think we'll ever see a resistance that's impactful in the way weakness is. 

 

Actually, there are some Pokemon with Abilities that increase Resistance. While they're not commonly played, 2 Klefki were gifted with the ability to increase Resistance on your Metal and Fairy Pokemon to -40 each. One of these, Klefki TEU, is currently in the Standard format and will survive rotation. Perhaps someone will find a use for reducing damage Metal Pokemon take using it? The other Klefki FFI doesn't have as much of a purpose, there haven't ever been any decks, to my knowledge at least, that would benefit from having -40 Resistance instead of -20.

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