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guruguy87

Axew bug, ability isn't working

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guruguy87

Ability Unerve: "Whenever your opponent plays an Item or Supporter card from their hand, prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokémon."

So I know alot of situations where people sacrifice a one prize pokemon with the idea that on the very next turn they will be able to take the game winning knockout as long as they aren't "gusted" by boss orders or a great catcher or custom catcher or pokemon catcher... Such a super common concept these days! WELL introducing AXEW. This little guy ought to be a one of tech all over the place in a format with boss orders... You CANNOT gust him. If you need something to sit in the active and force your opponent to KO only a single prizer meanwhile you KNOW the very next turn you have the game winning knockout yourself. It's perfect. It can also be useful to sacrifice 2 or even three (sorta iffy) of them to start the game as the first few turns, meanwhile you setup your board state or load up your VMAX and then catch up to the speed of what your opponent has done by taking out their powered up pokemon with someone you have fully ready to go on the bench because you were able to buy some extra time with Axew. (boss orders has made the format a bit more difficult to power up anyone on the bench) This fixes that. I'm going to put it in a few decks where I have seen that be a very direct issue in many close battles I have had. Decks where you have a single very important pokemon that can't be gusted. Decks where you are going toe to toe, prize for prize with the other deck and the matchup is super close and decided by a gust most often. I will trade single prize sacrifice for 2 or 3 prizes every day all day. It is one of the biggest reasons I have said 2 and 3 prize pokemon are overrated (most of the time). 



 


 

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ellomello044208

Yes, Axew is a possible consideration in decks that like to make the opponent hit certain Pokemon or Lillie's Pokedoll. The sad part is that Ninja Boy isn't present in the Standard format so you can't pull off quite as many crazy plays by playing Ninja Boy on your Axew. You can play Nanu on Axew though, I'm not sure what Dark Pokemon you'd want to make Axew into though. Maybe a Pokemon that require  tons of energy to attack, like Mega Sableye and Tyranitar?

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guruguy87

So I was just playing a game in expanded where I built a deck with Axew and what made zero sense to me was my opponent played a guzma when I had Axew in the active and took a huge knockout on me??!!? How is this possible? There was no other abilities cancelling mine, no stadium card in play, etc. The card very specifically reads immunity to all effects of items and supporters??!!?? Sounds like a bug that needs to be fixed?!? Knocks on the CEO door of pokemon TCGO... knock knock, who is there? A bug. A bug you gotta fix!!! What on Earth?? 

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ellomello044208

Axew's ability only protects itself from being gusted up by cards like Guzma or Pokémon Catcher. It doesn't protect your Benched Pokémon unfortunately. 

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ellomello044208
Posted (edited)

@guruguy87, the event you encountered wasn't a bug. You misinterpreted Axew's Ability. Unnerve prevents all effects of Items and Supporters done to Axew, meaning that when your opponent tries to play a Guzma on Axew to bring him into the Active Position it will fail. However, putting Axew in the Active Position doesn't prevent your opponent from gusting up your other Pokémon on the Bench, cards like Guzma, Lysandre, and Boss's Orders, affect the Benched Pokémon, hence the wording "Switch 1 of your opponent's Benched Pokémon" as opposed to Escape Rope or Repel which reads "Your opponent switches their Active Pokémon with 1 of their Benched Pokémon."

 

Other cards in Expanded that have similar protections to Axew include Electrike, who has an Ancient Trait called Barrier that protects him from all effects of your opponent's Trainer cards, except for Stadiums. If you're playing Axew in Expanded, you may want to consider switching over to Electrike whose Ancient Trait can't be negated by Power of Alchemy, Silent Lab, or Garbotoxin.

 

If you're looking to keep your Benched Pokémon from being gusted up, some cards to consider are Ribombee LOT who protects your Fairy Pokémon from all effects of your opponent's Supporter cards, Articuno TEU, which protects your Benched Water Pokémon from effects of Supporters while it's in the Active Position, and Togekiss PLS, who protects your Pokémon from effects of your opponent's Items while it's in the Active Position.

Edited by ellomello044208
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guruguy87

Not trying to be rude, but what you just explained is semantics mess and goofy nor logical. It a bogus cop-out explanation trying to create an unjustified reasoning pattern of disjointed disconnected excuse making for something that cannot be defended. I will elaborate. 

Just read the ability again:

"Whenever your opponent plays an Item or Supporter card from their hand, prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokémon." (the intent is VERY CLEAR)

^How can that be read any other way?? If a pokemon is on the bench and becomes active it clearly is an effect on the active (if axew is in the active) and an effect on the new active who was previously on the bench. To MOVE Axew from the active is CERTAINLY an effect being done to "this pokemon" (axew). Whoever at pokemon reads and made this particular ruling on this card did it wrong and this is absolutely bonkers. 


Based on the logical definition of the wording literally you are BOTH choosing someone on the bench AND switching the active to bench which UM IS AN EFFECT ON AXEW. HELLO!! To assume (for pokemon professors/rule makers) that the wording of axew ability means that a gust is ONLY targeting someone on the bench while having "no effect" on the active pokemon is absolutely preposterous!! Clearly there is an effect on axew since it heals from special conditions when going to the bench. That is the EFFECT of going to the bench!! What I'm saying is pokemon HAS IT WAY WRONG. Who and when did they make this determination? What foolish "sage" decided this was the way to negate/change/decrease how good axew was made to be. 

So, let's make a direct comparison to The ancient trait ability: You said,

"Ancient Trait called Barrier that protects him from all effects of your opponent's Trainer cards, except for Stadiums."

Now read again axew, "
"Whenever your opponent plays an Item or Supporter card from their hand, prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokémon."

absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in the intent. The only words added are "done to this pokemon"... Well when you are MOVING axew from the active you are DOING IT TO THAT POKEMON. That is blatant logic!!??!? Anytime you are moving something to and from the active it IS and always has been an effect on that pokemon AND the one being gusted. It is CLEAR AND PRESENT obvious logic that a gust is BOTH EFFECTS to BOTH POKEMON. In pure logic of life when a tornado strong wind is felt by two people moving them around they are BOTH being AFFECTED by that gust of wind. It would unbelievably silly to consider one person to be the only one affected by the gust because the wind "chose" it as a "target" ?? huh?? Granted one may be more "harmed" depending on their precise location, but that STILL does not mean there was "no effect" on the other one who is less harmed, but STILL FELT THE EFFECT of the gust of wind. A beautiful analogy for pokemon because the one being gusted to the bench is being "less harmed" whereas the one being going to the active is now likely to be "more harmed", but BOTH of them still are getting the EFFECT of the wind. Boom. I stand atop the windy mountain feeling the effect of small wind gust, but standing strongly in accuracy. lol. 

Another solid comparison is a SWITCH card. You are not only correcting all effects of attacks (such as zacian v) and special condition by moving to the bench, but you bring up the other pokemon to the active which brings in their ability (like jirachi, many others) and special effects of stadiums, etc. A switch card gives an effect BOTH to the active AND to the benched pokemon that becomes the new active. It is a mutli usage card that effects TWO pokemon. Do you agree? (of course you do) The exact same can be said for a boss orders or catchers. They are doing DOUBLE effects to TWO POKEMON not just ONLY "targeting the one on the bench". Do you know what I mean? This is the very definition of basic pokemon logic as to what it means when you are move from the active to the bench. It takes TWO pokemon to perform a switch or a gust so there is an EFFECT on BOTH pokemon. DUH. You are also EFFECTING the one you moved to from the active to the bench. (since it heals from any special conditions, etc meaning UM DUH AN EFFECT) How am I wrong? I can't be and I'm not. 

Whoever (at pokemon) interpreted it in the way you described does not understand the english language nor the game of pokemon?!?! Time for them to FIX this. They have it WRONG. Did they ever make an official ruling or statement somewhere on this? I sure would love to read it. 


Thank you for the suggestion on Electrike. I don't own one, I do own a few Axew. 

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guruguy87

I take severe issue with the word "up" in your sentence. Why? Because being gusted up to active or down to bench is STILL being gusted as an EFFECT on BOTH the active and the bench/new active. You are incorrect and are reading it incorrectly and PTCGI current determination on the card is also incorrect and they do need to fix this bad logic. I will elaborate. 

Just read the ability again:

"Whenever your opponent plays an Item or Supporter card from their hand, prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokémon." (the intent is VERY CLEAR)

^How can that be read any other way?? If a pokemon is on the bench and becomes active it clearly is an effect on the active (if axew is in the active) and an effect on the new active who was previously on the bench. To MOVE Axew from the active is CERTAINLY an effect being done to "this pokemon" (axew). Whoever at pokemon reads and made this particular ruling on this card did it wrong and this is absolutely bonkers. 


Based on the logical definition of the wording literally you are BOTH choosing someone on the bench AND switching the active to bench which UM IS AN EFFECT ON AXEW and an effect on the benched pokemon. HELLO!! To assume (for pokemon professors/rule makers) that the wording of axew ability means that a gust is ONLY targeting someone on the bench while having "no effect" on the active pokemon is absolutely preposterous!! Clearly there is an effect on axew since it heals from special conditions when going to the bench. That is the EFFECT of going to the bench!! (and right here I could already drop the victory microphone). What I'm saying is pokemon HAS IT WAY WRONG. Who and when did they make this determination? What foolish "sage" decided this was the way to negate/change/decrease how good axew was made to be. 

So, let's make a direct comparison to The ancient trait ability of electrike: You said,

"Ancient Trait called Barrier that protects him from all effects of your opponent's Trainer cards, except for Stadiums."

Now read again axew,
"Whenever your opponent plays an Item or Supporter card from their hand, prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokémon."

absolutely NO DIFFERENCE in the intent. The only words added are "done to this pokemon"... and that is the part you dancing with an excuse to assume that the pokemon being gusted "up" is "targeted" and therefore supposedly that means there is no effect on axew. WRONG. Of course there is an effect on axew when it moves to the bench. Well when you are MOVING axew from the active you are DOING IT TO THAT POKEMON and it heals conditions/effects. Boom. That is blatant logic!!??!? Anytime you are moving something to and from the active it IS and always has been an effect on that pokemon AND the one being gusted. It is CLEAR AND PRESENT obvious logic that a gust is BOTH EFFECTS to BOTH POKEMON.

In pure logic of life when a tornado strong wind is felt by two people moving them around they are BOTH being AFFECTED by that gust of wind. It would unbelievably silly to consider one person to be the "only one" affected by the gust because the wind "chose" it as a "target" ?? huh?? Granted one may be more harmed depending on their precise location, but that STILL does not mean there was "no effect" on the other one who is less harmed, but STILL FELT THE EFFECT of the gust of wind. A beautiful analogy for pokemon because the one being gusted to the bench is being "less harmed" whereas the one being going to the active is now likely to be "more harmed", but BOTH of them still are getting the EFFECT of the wind. Boom. I stand atop the windy mountain feeling the effect of small wind gust, but standing strongly in accuracy. lol. 

Another solid comparison is a SWITCH card. You are not only correcting all effects of attacks (such as zacian v) and special conditions by moving to the bench, but you bring up the other pokemon to the active which activates their ability (like jirachi, many others) and special effects of stadiums, etc. A switch card gives an effect BOTH to the active AND to the benched pokemon that becomes the new active. It is a mutli usage card that effects TWO pokemon. Do you agree? (of course you do) The exact same can be said for a boss orders or catchers because you are SWITCHING your opponents pokemon and creating an EFFECT on BOTH of them. They are doing DOUBLE effects to TWO POKEMON not just ONLY "targeting the one on the bench". Do you know what I mean? This is the very definition of basic pokemon logic as to what it means when you are move from the active to the bench. It takes TWO pokemon to perform a switch or a gust so there is an EFFECT on BOTH pokemon. DUH. You are also EFFECTING the one you moved to from the active to the bench. (since it heals from any special conditions, etc meaning UM DUH AN EFFECT) How am I wrong? I can't be and I'm not. 

Whoever (at pokemon) interpreted it in the way you described does not understand the english language nor the game of pokemon?!?! Time for them to fix this. They have it WRONG. Did they ever make an official ruling or statement somewhere on this? I sure would love to read it, but then again I know I'm right and I'm 100% not backing on down on this EVER. Period. Pokemon needs to review and fix. 

 

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ellomello044208

I don't agree. The cards are specifically worded so you can understand which Pokemon is being affected. Cards like Boss's Orders say "Switch 1 of your opponent's Benched Pokemon with their Active Pokemon." The Active Pokemon going to the Bench is merely a by-product of the fact there can only be one Active Pokemon at a time. It's the Benched Pokemon that's being gusted up that is directly affected.

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Otakutron
34 minutes ago, guruguy87 said:

Not trying to be rude...

 

...yet you're succeeding at it, nonetheless.

 

There are many confusing rulings in the Pokémon TCG, including ones I personally don't like.  You can even find threads where I've explained what I don't like.  I try to make sure I've got a good point to make when I do it, but now I'm worried I just look and sound like your previous post. >_<

 

Did you consult past rulings?

 

Q. If I use Escape Rope but my opponent's Active Pokemon has the "Omega Barrier" Ancient Trait does he or she have to switch it? Or if they have a Pokemon with "Omega Barrier" on the bench can he or she choose that and not switch it to Active?
A. If your opponent has an Active Pokemon with "Omega Barrier", then Escape Rope's effect will be blocked. If a Pokemon with "Omega Barrier" is on the bench, choosing that Pokemon will not stop the effect as the Active was the target of Escape Rope. (Primal Clash FAQ; Feb 5, 2015 TPCi Rules Team)

 

Q. If my opponent's Active Pokemon has the "Omega Barrier" Ancient Trait, can I use Lysandre to switch one of my benched Pokemon with it?
A. If your opponent's Benched Pokemon has "Omega Barrier", then Lysandre's effect will be blocked. But choosing a Benched Pokemon without "Omega Barrier" will cause it to switch with the Active Pokemon because the Benched Pokemon is the target of Lysandre. (Apr 9, 2015 TPCi Rules Team)

 

The (relatively) short answer is that "Unnerve" blocks Item/Supporter effects that directly apply to Axew.  When someone uses Boss's Order's

 

Switch 1 of your opponent’s Benched Pokémon with their Active Pokémon.

 

The effect is being applied to your opponent's Benched Pokémon.  Even if one argues that it is being applied to both the Benched and Active Pokémon, Unnerve (like Omega Barrier) would only block half the effect.  The other half would happen as normal, and you'd have two Active Pokémon... except you can't.  So the game then forces a correction, Benching your former Active.  Not the Item/Supporter directly.

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ellomello044208
Posted (edited)

When a Pokemon moves to the Bench, all effects and conditions on the Pokemon are removed, that is true. When you play a card like Switch that says, "Switch your Active Pokemon with 1 of your Benched Pokemon," your direct effect is to switch the Active to the Bench. In the case of playing a gust card like Pokemon Catcher, you're switching the Benched Pokemon with the Active Pokemon, an important distinction to make. In that case, switching the Active Pokemon to the Bench isn't the main effect, it's a byproduct having one of your Benched Pokemon brought into the Active Position. The effects and conditions on the Active Pokemon will be removed, but that will happen to any Pokemon that moves to the Bench, regardless of the reasons that they move to the Bench.

 

To your other point, yes, it would be silly to say a gust of wind could choose which target it was affecting. However, that is the case in the Pokemon Trading Card Game, you can choose which Benched Pokemon to bring up and so your analogy isn't applicable to the game.

 

Switch does just directly affect the Active Pokemon. The card reads, "Switch your Active Pokemon with 1 of your Benched Pokemon." If the card read something like this, "Switch 1 of your Benched Pokemon with your Active Pokemon," it would be directly affecting the Benched Pokemon instead of the Active Pokemon. The fact that both of the Pokemon exchange places isn't an effect on both of the Pokemon, it's a direct effect on one and an indirect effect on the other. Axew's ability could use some clarification, and I would welcome a ruling about Unnerve as well. But from the way the card is played (or not played for that matter), I am led to believe that the ability only protects Axew from direct effects like being gusted up or a Koga's Trap. 

 

If you take issue with my use of the word "up" to describe being gusted, feel free to interchange it with another word that still works, like "out," or just refer to the Pokemon as "the gusted one."

Edited by ellomello044208

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Otakutron
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, guruguy87 said:

Did they ever make an official ruling or statement somewhere on this?

 

You're supposed to look that up before making massive posts ranting about it. ;)

 

I don't have one for Axew and its "Unnerve" but I do have two pertinent rulings for the "Omega Barrier" Ancient Trait:

 

Q. If I use Escape Rope but my opponent's Active Pokemon has the "Omega Barrier" Ancient Trait does he or she have to switch it? Or if they have a Pokemon with "Omega Barrier" on the bench can he or she choose that and not switch it to Active?
A. If your opponent has an Active Pokemon with "Omega Barrier", then Escape Rope's effect will be blocked. If a Pokemon with "Omega Barrier" is on the bench, choosing that Pokemon will not stop the effect as the Active was the target of Escape Rope. (Primal Clash FAQ; Feb 5, 2015 TPCi Rules Team)

 

Q. If my opponent's Active Pokemon has the "Omega Barrier" Ancient Trait, can I use Lysandre to switch one of my benched Pokemon with it?
A. If your opponent's Benched Pokemon has "Omega Barrier", then Lysandre's effect will be blocked. But choosing a Benched Pokemon without "Omega Barrier" will cause it to switch with the Active Pokemon because the Benched Pokemon is the target of Lysandre. (Apr 9, 2015 TPCi Rules Team)

 

Always remember, filter the words on the card through their meaning in the Pokémon TCG, not how it would work if you could someone be immune to such effects in the real world.

 

Edited by Otakutron
Censored something, but by now, I'm not sure exactly what. XP
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guruguy87

Wow, word dancing and excuses is all that is. Period. 

Wrong wrong wrong. My analogy is perfectly applicable. Being able to choose is NOT part of the discussion (has ZERO to do with this) and yet you are making it to be so....  What IS part of the discussion is the EFFECT. Moving to the bench IS an effect. You then said "The fact that both of the Pokemon exchange places isn't an effect on both of the Pokemon, it's a direct effect on one and an indirect effect on the other." yeah wrong, that is just another silly bogus word dance. Doesn't fit BASIC LOGIC in life or the english language. Imagine if in schools we were all taught "now listen here kids there are direct effects and indirect effects", then the smart kid in the room retorts, "but aren't they both effects" and the teacher gets confused and says "no they are different", the smart kid replies "but how"... because um THEY AREN'T. A freaking effect is a freaking effect. The WORDING ON THE AXEW does NOT state "indirect effect" it states EFFECT. Boom. I again drop the microphone of accuracy. 

Disagreed HIGHLY about switch not directly affecting the active pokemon. It absolutely directly affects it because it HEALS from effects when it goes to the bench. 

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Mod_Elderberry

Seeing that this thread is no longer constructive and productive, it is now closed.

I have also merged the two threads that were created on the same subject.

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TPCi_Mathis
On 7/4/2020 at 8:23 AM, guruguy87 said:

Wow, word dancing and excuses is all that is. Period.

 

There are 2 categories of card effects that switch Pokémon in the game, but there's a bit of subtlety to the wording of these effects that doesn't make the effect's target immediately obvious:  

  • The card effect targets the Active Pokémon and 'pushes' it to the Bench. The most common wording for a 'push' effect is "Your opponent switches their Active Pokémon with 1 of their Benched Pokémon." As a general rule, the wording for 'push' effects always mentions the Active Pokémon before the Benched Pokémon, and the player choosing which Pokémon will be the new Active Pokémon is that Pokémon's owner.
  • The card effect targets a Benched Pokémon and 'pulls' it to the Active Spot. The most common wording for a 'pull' effect is "Switch 1 of your opponent’s Benched Pokémon with their Active Pokémon." As a general rule, the wording for 'pull' effects always mentions the Benched Pokémon before the Active Pokémon, and the player choosing which Pokémon will be the new Active Pokémon is the opponent of that Pokémon's owner.

From a game mechanics standpoint, these cards operate by moving the targeted Pokémon to the designated location and then letting the game rules handle the clean up. For a 'push' effect, this means that the card effect moves the targeted Pokémon to the Bench and then the game rule that requires each player to always have an Active Pokémon, if possible, kicks in and forces the targeted Pokémon's owner to choose one of their other Benched Pokémon to move to the Active Spot. For a 'pull' effect, this means that the card effect moves the targeted Pokémon to the Active Spot and then the game rule that limits each player to having only 1 Active Pokémon kicks in and forces the targeted Pokémon's owner to move their other Active Pokémon back to their Bench.

 

Hopefully this helps clarify why the Unnerve Ability on your Active Axew doesn't stop it from getting switched when your opponent plays Guzma and chooses one of your other Benched Pokémon to 'pull' to the Active Spot.

 

 

 

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