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Alphaia_CORP

[GAME] 'Up to' inconsistency

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Alphaia_CORP

I've noticed some inconsistency in the way the phrase 'up to' is used. Below are my observations.

 

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Using Giant Hearth 197/236 UNM you can:

  • Discard a card from your hand and put nothing in your hand (no cards in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put nothing in your hand (no fire energy in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put nothing in your hand (there are fire energy but you choose not to get anything)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put 1 fire energy in your hand (there is only 1 fire energy in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put 1 fire energy in your hand (there are other fire energy but you choose not to get them)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put 2 fire energy in your hand

 

These are all the options that I'd expect there to be available.

 

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However, using Pal Pad 127/202 SSH you can only (The striking-through and boldening is to show that the actions are equivalent as the ones done by using the Giant Hearth😞

  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle 1 fire energy Supporter in your hand deck (there is only 1 fire energy Supporter in deck discard pile)
  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle 1 fire energy Supporter in your hand deck (there are other fire energy Supporters but you choose not to get them)
  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle 2 fire energy Supporters in your hand deck

 

So, the following options are not available:

  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle nothing in your hand deck (no cards in deck discard pile)
  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle nothing in your hand deck (no fire energy Supporters in deck discard pile)
  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle nothing in your hand deck (there are fire energy Supporters but you choose not to get anything)

 

################################################################

 

To make matters even more confusing, Cramorant V 155/202 SSH's Beak Catch attack can only be used to:

  • Discard a card from your hand successfully attack and put nothing in your hand (no cards in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand successfully attack and put 1 fire energy card in your hand (there is only 1 fire energy card in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand successfully attack and put 1 fire energy card in your hand (there are other fire energy cards but you choose not to get them)
  • Discard a card from your hand successfully attack and put 2 fire energy cards in your hand

 

So the following options are not available:

  • Discard a card from your hand successfully attack and put nothing in your hand (there are fire energy cards but you choose not to get anything)

 

################################################################

 

This shows that there is an inconsistency when the word 'up to' is used.

 

If the reason why you couldn't play Pal Pad when you have no Supporters in the discard pile was that both in that case 'up to' meant one or two and therefore the minimum requirement was not met, why then can you play Brock's Grit 53/68 HIF when the minimum requirement for the card to be used is having 6 Pokemon and Energy in any combination in your discard pile as there is no 'up to' in the card description, if you have less than 6 in combination of Pokemon and Energy in your discard pile?

 

This took me an embarrassingly long time to write and format ********** well), and I understand that this is difficultly worded so if you'd like clarification please don't hesitate to ask me!

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Alphaia_CORP

Also, in the rulebook under advanced rules (taking a mulligan) https://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms2/pdf/trading-card-game/rulebook/sm4_rulebook_en.pdf it is said that if your opponent takes 3 extra mulligans that you can draw up to 3 cards. However, in the game only the 0, 1 and 3 options are displayed if your opponent takes 3 more mulligans than you, probably due to a missing dropdown or avoiding filling up the screen with buttons that can theoretically be infinite (although you wouldn't want to draw more than 46 cards so you don't insta-deck-out).

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Mod_Elderberry

Hello Trainer Alphaia_CORP,

 

Thank you for your feedback and for sharing your detailed observations.

I have send them to the proper channels so that they can be reviewed.

 

Thanks again

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SandaledOtter
6 hours ago, Alphaia_CORP said:

I've noticed some inconsistency in the way the phrase 'up to' is used. Below are my observations.

 

################################################################

 

Using Giant Hearth 197/236 UNM you can:

  • Discard a card from your hand and put nothing in your hand (no cards in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put nothing in your hand (no fire energy in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put nothing in your hand (there are fire energy but you choose not to get anything)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put 1 fire energy in your hand (there is only 1 fire energy in deck)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put 1 fire energy in your hand (there are other fire energy but you choose not to get them)
  • Discard a card from your hand and put 2 fire energy in your hand

 

These are all the options that I'd expect there to be available.

 

################################################################

 

However, using Pal Pad 127/202 SSH...

 

So, the following options are not available:

  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle nothing in your hand deck (no cards in deck discard pile)
  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle nothing in your hand deck (no fire energy Supporters in deck discard pile)
  • Discard a use the card and put shuffle nothing in your hand deck (there are fire energy Supporters but you choose not to get anything)

 

################################################################

 

To make matters even more confusing, Cramorant V 155

 

So the following options are not available:

  • Discard a card from your hand successfully attack and put nothing in your hand (there are fire energy cards but you choose not to get anything)

 

################################################################

 

This shows that there is an inconsistency when the word 'up to' is used.

 

If the reason why you couldn't play Pal Pad when you have no Supporters in the discard pile was that both in that case 'up to' meant one or two and therefore the minimum requirement was not met, why then can you play Brock's Grit 53/68 HIF when the minimum requirement for the card to be used is having 6 Pokemon and Energy in any combination in your discard pile as there is no 'up to' in the card description, if you have less than 6 in combination of Pokemon and Energy in your discard pile?

 

This took me an embarrassingly long time to write and format ********** well), and I understand that this is difficultly worded so if you'd like clarification please don't hesitate to ask me!

 

Pal Pad is different because the discard pile's contents are public knowledge (when no valid cards are in the discard), AND you can't play a supporter for no effect (when there are valid cards in the discard).

 

Brock's Grit is having an effect when used, just not its full effect. There must be SOME valid cards for it to work, and the missing "up to" means you must find as many cards as possible to reach the 6 cards.

 

Those are the rules. Or rulings, anyway, I don't think they're in the basic rule book.

 

As for Cramorant V, I can't say. You probably SHOULD be able to attack, search your deck, and draw nothing by its wording, even though it has no other effect.

 

5 hours ago, Alphaia_CORP said:

Also, in the rulebook under advanced rules (taking a mulligan) https://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms2/pdf/trading-card-game/rulebook/sm4_rulebook_en.pdf it is said that if your opponent takes 3 extra mulligans that you can draw up to 3 cards. However, in the game only the 0, 1 and 3 options are displayed if your opponent takes 3 more mulligans than you, probably due to a missing dropdown or avoiding filling up the screen with buttons that can theoretically be infinite (although you wouldn't want to draw more than 46 cards so you don't insta-deck-out).

 

I haven't seen the mulligan screen for multiple mulligans recently. Previously, it would have had "draw no more cards," "draw a card for the next in the stack of mulligans," and "draw all the cards you can." I would think that the "draw one" you saw was the choice to step through the mulligans individually, and that using it would have drawn a card and asked you again. The reason there isn't a button for each possible number of mulligans is as you state; it could take a deck's worth of mulligans to draw a Basic.

 

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Chasista

I can confirm the mullgans as SandaledOffer said.

 

The Mulligans are taken in the next way. Let's imagine 4 (extra) mulligan between opponent and you.

 

You'll be shown 0, 1 and 4.

 

0 means you get no card. Can't exactly remember the wording in game but it's a NO. And Asking for mulligans ends.

4 means you get all, and the wording is "Yes to rest".

Take 1 means, you take 1 card and after that one, you'll be asked again if you want 1 card more, or (again) 'zero' (and then asking ends) or 'yes to rest'.  So take 1 is the option for 2 and 3 or any intermediate number of cards just in case you don't want 'Yes to rest' but only part of the total.

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