Jump to content
srsrox

Add XY Set to Legacy When SwSh is Added

Recommended Posts

srsrox

Title pretty much says it all. When Sword and Shield drops in the card game, XY will now be two sets behind. It only makes sense to add it now to the Legacy format since it can only be played in Expanded. Plus, if there are any broken card combos, they can easily ban the cards on here since it's an unofficial format in the first place.

 

The biggest reason I ask is because Legacy is a stagnant format and should add sets at times to make it fun again.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Otakutron

The Legacy Format exists so that the cards from the HeartGold & SoulSilver series (plus Call of Legends) have a Format where they're still legal.  The Black & White sets were included to give it a larger cardpool.

 

If we had enough players to support an additional Format, then I'd say go for BW + XY, as the cards were designed to work together.

 

Legacy may have stagnated because of the lack of cards, but when I bothered playing it, the "best deck" tended to shift around: no new cards needed.  Instead, players figured out how to counter the current best deck, and eventually it declined while something else ascended.  A major part of the appeal of Legacy was that the cards you got for it would never leave it.  I have to speak in the past tense, though, for the reason I suspect Legacy has stagnated:

 

So few people are playing it.  I haven't touched it in months, maybe a year.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Felidae_

110% supporting this. Legacy needs fresh wind desperately.

The only thing I'd suggest is not to add the entirety of XY (since it was quite a big series), but start with the first 6 sets (so XY Base – XY Roaring Skies) That way we can add the second half of the XY in 2021 (and we also don't need to deal with FogP + Shiftry until they realize that they should ban something).

 

Speaking of banning: LTC, yay or nay?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SharKing319
2 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

Speaking of banning: LTC, yay or nay?

Realistically, I'd have to "yay" a ban. LTC would be ridiculously broken with cards like Junk Arm, not to mention Seismitoad-EX with draw support (like Slurpuff, if Shaymin-EX doesn't get added in yet). I know from firsthand experience in the Unlimited format (back when that was an actual thing), messing around with aggressive draw engines that involved Junk Arm and LTC, and while they were really fun to play with, I have to admit, they'd be flat-out unfair.

Edited by SharKing319

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fatcatz2007

if xy is added to legacy does that mean i cant use a greninja break deck in expanded. time to move on to vaporeon gx deck i guess

I do support legacy need new cards i think no more than breakthrough.

Edited by Fatcatz2007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Felidae_
4 hours ago, Fatcatz2007 said:

if xy is added to legacy does that mean i cant use a greninja break deck in expanded.

Why? One format doesn't affect the other (especially since Legacy is an online exclusive format).

 

If TPCI starts to remove sets from Expanded (which they should), they'd start with the BW block first.

 

4 hours ago, SharKing319 said:

Realistically, I'd have to "yay" a ban. LTC would be ridiculously broken with cards like Junk Arm, not to mention Seismitoad-EX with draw support (like Slurpuff, if Shaymin-EX doesn't get added in yet). I know from firsthand experience in the Unlimited format (back when that was an actual thing), messing around with aggressive draw engines that involved Junk Arm and LTC, and while they were really fun to play with, I have to admit, they'd be flat-out unfair.

Yeah, as much as I want to run Toad + Shaymin + Scoop Up, again for old Unlimited times sake, even I am hard-pressed to find a reason not to ban LTC in this potential format.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Otakutron
13 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

Speaking of banning: LTC, yay or nay?

 

Looking at the Banned List for Expanded, are there any cards banned there that wouldn't need to be banned in a Legacy Format that included the XY-series?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Felidae_

There are a couple (considering a scenario where we only get the first 6 XY editions until Roaring Skies)

 

  • Archeops ( not really a threat in the format as the majority of attackers are stage one)

  • Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick (Night March + Archeops could be a bit annoying, but I think we can manage)

  • Red Card (not enough serious hand disruption like Deliquent to validate a ban)

 

Card's I'd keep on the list:

LTC + Wally

 

Card's I'd add to the list:

Shaymin-EX (part of the novelty of the format is that you can't chain Shaymins indefinitely on the first turn, resulting in more creative ways to get your card advantage rolling)

Sky Field ( again, keeping the flow of the format in mind, I don't think Sky Field and decks that are based around the card are healthy for the format).

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raticate555

Sorry, I haven't been playing since the Jurassic Period like you people. What is LTC?

Oh, just got it! Lysandre's Trump Card right?

Edited by Raticate555
Sudden Brain Wave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fatcatz2007
20 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

Why? One format doesn't affect the other (especially since Legacy is an online exclusive format).

 

 

I thought since hs is only allowed in legacy that is what would happen. Also I wonder how long you will have to wait for someone to play you in legacy. I played this really good team plasma deck focused around tornados ex and posioning. It was really powerful but I think it had a sun and moon seviper so i dont think it works for legacy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Otakutron

@Felidae_ I'd like to address points from your last few posts, some of which I read but didn't comment upon at the time.  I'm not going to explain myself as well as I like because it made the post to long.  Think I said something totally stupid?  Maybe I did, maybe I didn't; feel free to ask questions. :)  I want Legacy to be revitalized but I think adding sets will only provide a false start.  Legacy exists to gives us a place to use older cards but adding newer cards will likely crowd out older cards because of power creep and unintended combos.   You know, what usually happens in Expanded. XP  Instead, we'd be better off just finding something to get more people playing.  When the Legacy Format was more Active, the metagame was shifting every few weeks or months.

 

Why?  Players new and old trying new things plus those who did want to stick to what they new were still adapting their decks to the metagame.  Even if the former isn't good enough, the latter should be worth consideration; there are a lot of "silver bullet" counters in the cardpool that become worth it when what they counter is on top.  If that isn't enough, what about Bans?  There are more than a few power-players that, while not blatantly broken, are at least strong enough to consider before adding new sets.  Or maybe removing sets; HeartGould & SoulSilver through BW - Next Destiny was an actual Format, while only going up to BW - Noble Victories would give us that EX-less Format some folks always seem to want.

 

Adding only part of the XY-series seems unlikely.  However, I will still happily discuss the possibility. ;)  First, for convenience, the cards on the current Ban List that exist in the proposed cardpool:

 

  • Archeops (BW - Noble Victories 67/101; BW - Dark Explorers 110/108)
  • Ghetsis (BW - Plasma Freeze 101/116; 115/116)
  • Hex Maniac (XY - Ancient Origins 75/98, 75a/98)
  • Lysandre's Trump Card (XY - Phantom Forces 99/119, 118/119)
  • Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick (XY - Primal Clash 133/160, 158/160)
  • Red Card (XY 124/146, Generations 71/83)
  • Wally (XY - Roaring Skies 94/108, 107/108; Generations RC27/RC32)

Every one of these runs into at least some of the reasons they were Banned in Expanded, and I maintain that most of them weren't banned during their Standard Format heyday because the powers-that-be just prefer to wait until a card is older (which usually mean it has rotated out of Standard) before it is banned.

  • Archeops can still hit the field T1 (Player 1's first turn), and even after the Shield & Sword first turn rules go into effect, a T2 (Player 2's first turn) Archeops is still possible, if not likely.  This means either it is banned, or both Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and Wally are banned.
  • Ghetsis needs to go; I believe the only reason it wasn't already banned is because they didn't want a Banned List for Legacy.
  • Hex Maniac's only hope of not being Banned is if Poké-Powers and Poké-Bodies are enough to prevent the shenanigans that got her banned in Expanded.
  • Lysandre's Trump Card has access to everything it had before it was banned, only more so thanks to older cards. @_@
  • All Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick is missing are some of its other high-profile picks, like Gallade (XY - BREAKthrough 84/162)... and if it stays, Archeops will need to be banned.
  • Red Card may lack the full hand-shredding combos it enjoyed in Expanded, but it still seems a bit too strong, given how unpleasant it is to have your opening six become an opening four.  That assumes there aren't alternatives to what made it work so well before... and I'm not sure that is the case.
  • Wally still has Trevenant (XY 55/146) and - if it isn't banned of its own accord - Archeops.  That is before considering what older cards it might break.

So... yeah, I am thinking the question is not what cards come off the list, but what older cards get added.

Edited by Otakutron
Replacing "Why is that censored?" words

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raticate555

Would Forest of Giant Plants get the ban as well? Wouldn't look forward to turn 1 Plumes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Felidae_
2 hours ago, Otakutron said:

@Felidae_ I'd like to address points from your last few posts, some of which I read but didn't comment upon at the time.  I'm not going to explain myself as well as I like because it made the post to long.  Think I said something totally stupid?  Maybe I did, maybe I didn't; feel free to ask questions. :)  I want Legacy to be revitalized but I think adding sets will only provide a false start.  Legacy exists to gives us a place to use older cards but adding newer cards will likely crowd out older cards because of power creep and unintended combos.   You know, what usually happens in Expanded. XP  Instead, we'd be better off just finding something to get more people playing.  When the Legacy Format was more Active, the metagame was shifting every few weeks or months.

 

 

I'll stop you right there:

 

Even in today's meta a staggering amount of cool old cards aren't used (i.e. every Legend except for Lugia Legend). One of the reasons is undeniably the power-creep between HGSS and BW and I totally agree with you that adding more sets will hurt the HGSS cards the most.

However, new sets also give room for new combo potential between XY and HGSS era cards.

Take the Legends for example: one of the reasons they are so underused is their lacklustre damage, combined with awkward attack cost, all while yielding two prize cards and clogging up your deck.

However, if you add means to negate some of their downsides (i.e. by generating Energy), you open up new possibilities.

 

i.e. during the time Roaring Skies dropped I played this fun deck in the Unlimited format, which focused on controlling the opponent's bench and prize cards with with Palkia & Dialga Legend

 

Spoiler

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 16

* 2 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 4 Bronzor TM 58
* 1 Bronzong TM 15
* 3 Bronzong PHF 61
* 2 Keldeo-EX LTR 45
* 2 Palkia & Dialga LEGEND (#101) TM 101
* 2 Palkia & Dialga LEGEND (#102) TM 102

##Trainer Cards - 36

* 1 Team Rocket's Trickery UD 78
* 1 Xerosic PHF 119
* 1 Pokémon Collector HS 97
* 1 Professor's Letter XY 123
* 2 Dive Ball PRC 125
* 3 Level Ball NXD 89
* 1 N DEX 96
* 1 Professor Oak's New Theory HS 101
* 1 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
* 2 Lost Remover CL 80
* 1 Professor Juniper DEX 98
* 1 Scoop Up Cyclone PLB 95
* 2 Float Stone PLF 99
* 4 VS Seeker ROS 110
* 1 Steel Shelter PHF 105
* 1 Head Ringer Team Flare Hyper Gear PHF 97
* 2 Ultra Ball PLB 90
* 1 Lysandre FLF 104
* 1 Tool Scrapper DRX 116
* 4 Crushing Hammer LTR 111
* 4 Junk Arm TM 87

##Energy - 8

* 2 Metal Energy BLW 112
* 4 Metal Energy CL 87
* 2 Water Energy HS 117

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

Not a great deck in terms of winning record, but a fun one for sure.

 

 

Now let's talk about the meta: Legacy has been utterly figured out. The best deck in the format (Empoleon+Dusknoir+Flygon) has a positive record against every other tier 1 deck. Not by a huge margin (you have a lot of 60/40 and 55/45 match-ups), but big enough to create a pretty boring environment.

While there are enough other decks you can play, in the end in cycles between ~ 10 decks and if you are really looking at the top I'd say it cycles between 5-6.

 

The format might have shifted in the early days and I remember when I came back from my hiatus the meta hadn't set, yet, but it only took some time for people to find the right set-up with Empoleon and it was pretty much lights out from that moment on.

 

2 hours ago, Otakutron said:

@Felidae_

 

Why?  Players new and old trying new things plus those who did want to stick to what they new were still adapting their decks to the metagame.  Even if the former isn't good enough, the latter should be worth consideration; there are a lot of "silver bullet" counters in the cardpool that become worth it when what they counter is on top.  If that isn't enough, what about Bans?  There are more than a few power-players that, while not blatantly broken, are at least strong enough to consider before adding new sets.  Or maybe removing sets; HeartGould & SoulSilver through BW - Next Destiny was an actual Format, while only going up to BW - Noble Victories would give us that EX-less Format some folks always seem to want.

 

 

Incentives to get more people playing (i.e. by shop bundles, etc.) would be cool, however I'd argue that the current Legacy format is the worst format for any new player to invest in and even then you'll reach face the same predicament we are in right now.

 

 

3 hours ago, Otakutron said:

 

 

Adding only part of the XY-series seems unlikely.  However, I will still happily discuss the possibility. ;)  First, for convenience, the cards on the current Ban List that exist in the proposed cardpool:

 

  • Archeops (BW - Noble Victories 67/101; BW - Dark Explorers 110/108)
  • Ghetsis (BW - Plasma Freeze 101/116; 115/116)
  • Hex Maniac (XY - Ancient Origins 75/98, 75a/98)
  • Lysandre's Trump Card (XY - Phantom Forces 99/119, 118/119)
  • Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick (XY - Primal Clash 133/160, 158/160)
  • Red Card (XY 124/146, Generations 71/83)
  • Wally (XY - Roaring Skies 94/108, 107/108; Generations RC27/RC32)

Every one of these runs into at least some of the reasons they were Banned in Expanded, and I maintain that most of them weren't banned during their Standard Format heyday because the powers-that-be just prefer to wait until a card is older (which usually mean it has rotated out of Standard) before it is banned.

  • Archeops can still hit the field T1 (Player 1's first turn), and even after the Shield & Sword first turn rules go into effect, a T2 (Player 2's first turn) Archeops is still possible, if not likely.  This means either it is banned, or both Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and Wally are banned.
  • Ghetsis needs to go; I believe the only reason it wasn't already banned is because they didn't want a Banned List for Legacy.
  • Hex Maniac's only hope of not being Banned is if Poké-Powers and Poké-Bodies are enough to prevent the shenanigans that got her banned in Expanded.
  • Lysandre's Trump Card has access to everything it had before it was banned, only more so thanks to older cards. @_@
  • All Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick is missing are some of its other high-profile picks, like Gallade (XY - BREAKthrough 84/162)... and if it stays, Archeops will need to be banned.
  • Red Card may lack the full hand-shredding combos it enjoyed in Expanded, but it still seems a bit too strong, given how unpleasant it is to have your opening six become an opening four.  That assumes there aren't alternatives to what made it work so well before... and I'm not sure that is the case.
  • Wally still has Trevenant (XY 55/146) and - if it isn't banned of its own accord - Archeops.  That is before considering what older cards it might break.

So... yeah, I am thinking the question is not what cards come off the list, but what older cards get added.

 

I'll go over the cards real quick:

 

Archeops: The card + Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick was never an issue in Unlimited, nor in Expanded (since most EX attackers where basic Pokemon) and was actually used to win the only big Japanese tournament during the time of Shiftry + FogP in the format before Shiftry got banned). Needless to say I don't think that a card, which requires a deck designed to play it on the first turn, needs to be banned if it hardly affects the majority of decks in the format.

 

Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick: I'm willing to discuss Archie and Maxie, however we should keep in mind that Maxie was primarily banned to prevent turn 1 item lock, which doesn't exist in this era of cards (or at least is not possible with Maxie).

 

Ghetsis: Really? In the current format without VS Seeker you want to ban Ghetsis? C'mon now. Nobody runs more than a copy of it, you need to invest your Jirachi (with not every deck runs) and if your opponent has Smeargle or a strong supporter you are likely better off to have palyed Juiper / N / PONT.

 

Hex Maniac: The problem with the card in Expanded was the dumb interaction between Zoroak, Eggs, Sudowoodo and VS Seeker / Puzzle of Time. Inherently I think the card is fair and as you said thanks to Poker Power / Body you do have options to negate the effect in the format.

You do run the risk to get into a same Hex Maniac lock scenario as you did in the Expanded format, however I'd once again point to the old Expanded / Unlimited times where the card definitely wasn't an issue.

 

Red card: If you add the entirety of XY you get Red Card + Delinquent which is pretty brutal. Honestly though I never saw item lock or hand disruption as a reason to ban cards, unless they are so oppressive that the game is decided by a coin flip.

 

Wally: Trevenant is enough reason for me to ban the card. Archeops definitely is not for the reasons mentioned above.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Otakutron
9 minutes ago, Felidae_ said:

Even in today's meta a staggering amount of cool old cards aren't used (i.e. every Legend except for Lugia Legend). One of the reasons is undeniably the power-creep between HGSS and BW and I totally agree with you that adding more sets will hurt the HGSS cards the most. 

 

Just to be clear... we are going to be stuck with a lot of cool, old cards being useless competitively: that is the nature of most TCG's and Pokémon is no exception.  Most of each set is "filler" likely not intended to prove competitive, and I suspect there are more cards intended to be competitive that fail than cards intended as filler that end up being good afterall.

 

Now, if you think rendering even more of the oldest cards, which are only legal here and in Unlimited (and Unlimited has no Ladder support) to possibly help out a few others is worth it... okay.  I understand such a position, even if I don't agree with it.  I also need it clearly stated, because of the dangers of assuming. ;)

 


 

26 minutes ago, Felidae_ said:

However, new sets also give room for new combo potential between XY and HGSS era cards.

Take the Legends for example: one of the reasons they are so underused is their lacklustre damage, combined with awkward attack cost, all while yielding two prize cards and clogging up your deck.

However, if you add means to negate some of their downsides (i.e. by generating Energy), you open up new possibilities.

 

i.e. during the time Roaring Skies dropped I played this fun deck in the Unlimited format, which focused on controlling the opponent's bench and prize cards with with Palkia & Dialga Legend 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 16

* 2 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 4 Bronzor TM 58
* 1 Bronzong TM 15
* 3 Bronzong PHF 61
* 2 Keldeo-EX LTR 45
* 2 Palkia & Dialga LEGEND (#101) TM 101
* 2 Palkia & Dialga LEGEND (#102) TM 102

##Trainer Cards - 36

* 1 Team Rocket's Trickery UD 78
* 1 Xerosic PHF 119
* 1 Pokémon Collector HS 97
* 1 Professor's Letter XY 123
* 2 Dive Ball PRC 125
* 3 Level Ball NXD 89
* 1 N DEX 96
* 1 Professor Oak's New Theory HS 101
* 1 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
* 2 Lost Remover CL 80
* 1 Professor Juniper DEX 98
* 1 Scoop Up Cyclone PLB 95
* 2 Float Stone PLF 99
* 4 VS Seeker ROS 110
* 1 Steel Shelter PHF 105
* 1 Head Ringer Team Flare Hyper Gear PHF 97
* 2 Ultra Ball PLB 90
* 1 Lysandre FLF 104
* 1 Tool Scrapper DRX 116
* 4 Crushing Hammer LTR 111
* 4 Junk Arm TM 87

##Energy - 8

* 2 Metal Energy BLW 112
* 4 Metal Energy CL 87
* 2 Water Energy HS 117

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

Not a great deck in terms of winning record, but a fun one for sure.

 

 

Now let's talk about the meta: Legacy has been utterly figured out. The best deck in the format (Empoleon+Dusknoir+Flygon) has a positive record against every other tier 1 deck. Not by a huge margin (you have a lot of 60/40 and 55/45 match-ups), but big enough to create a pretty boring environment.

While there are enough other decks you can play, in the end in cycles between ~ 10 decks and if you are really looking at the top I'd say it cycles between 5-6. 

 

The format might have shifted in the early days and I remember when I came back from my hiatus the meta hadn't set, yet, but it only took some time for people to find the right set-up with Empoleon and it was pretty much lights out from that moment on.

 

I cannot speak of the current metagame for Legacy; I haven't had enough time to do more than play the odd Theme Format game lately.  With Standard, I can at least check out tournament results, maybe find some ******* videos discussing the current metagame.

 

What I can do is apply the knowledge I do have.  I know that most Pokémon LEGEND cards weren't worth the effort, but a few were (even after Pokémon-EX joined the game).  This is mostly a problem with Pokémon LEGEND in general; like many mechanics, they weren't well implemented.  I need more than just a fun, Unlimited Format deck you used to run to convince me it won't be a net negative.  I mean... you're asking to bring Seismitoad-EX decks into the Legacy Format.

 

As for your description of the metagame... can you be a little more specific?  It sounds quite nice right now.  Are the 5-6 top decks all Dusknoir/Empoleon/Flygon (gonna just write "DEF" from now on) variants?  Are the various 55/45 and 60/40 matchups only happening against the best counterdecks, or best would-be competitive decks maxed out on DEF counters?  How did you come by this metagame analysis?  Finally, if DEF truly is "too good" for the metagame, locking it down... why not seek bans instead?  They could even be "rotating" bannings intentionally just there to keep the metagame from growing stagnant (as opposed to just focusing on game balance).

 

37 minutes ago, Felidae_ said:

Incentives to get more people playing (i.e. by shop bundles, etc.) would be cool, however I'd argue that the current Legacy format is the worst format for any new player to invest in and even then you'll reach face the same predicament we are in right now.

 

I can't tell if I'm failing to grasp what it is you're saying, or you mine. XD

 

I wanted incentives to increase participation in the Legacy Format because I believe the biggest cause of stagnation in its metagame is insufficient folks playing in it, especially with quality decks.  It can be the worst Format for "new" players, so long as it isn't just a sliver of older players participating.  Newbies tired of Theme, Standard, and Expanded - and having to maintain decks for those last two - should find the Legacy Format the obvious choice.  Right now, though... tradeable older cards are going to become more and more scarce, and Legacy-exclusive sets have the least amount of use but cost the same at the in-game shop.

 

43 minutes ago, Felidae_ said:

Archeops: The card + Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick was never an issue in Unlimited, nor in Expanded (since most EX attackers where basic Pokemon) and was actually used to win the only big Japanese tournament during the time of Shiftry + FogP in the format before Shiftry got banned). Needless to say I don't think that a card, which requires a deck designed to play it on the first turn, needs to be banned if it hardly affects the majority of decks in the format.

 

I may be on shaky ground where it requires a good knowledge of what is currently competitive in Legacy but not when it comes to Banned Lists for Pokémon. :D  A good Banned List looks not just at what is causing problems now, but what is likely to cause problems soon.  Yes, that means the real Banned List isn't always "good" by my standards, but I think they do an alright job.  While the PTCGO Unlimited Format at one time resembled the proposed Legacy+ Format, don't let that lull you into a false sense of security; it is always possible something was missed, or at least, didn't have the time it needed to become a real problem.  After all, it isn't like there were any Regional Championships using HS through ROS for the Format.

 

Archeops remains banned because Evolutions are already difficult enough to make work and, as long as it is legal, it is possible to get it into play before one player has a chance to manually Evolve.  It was initially banned for the specific Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick combo... which involved another, alternate target for Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick (sometimes two).  The alternates were for all the games where denying your opponent the capacity to Evolve from hand wouldn't matter.  The deck's most likely to pull this trick were Basic beatdown decks, Yveltal-EX decks of the time being a great example.

 

Minor quibble about Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick; it was finally banned to prevent Benching Kabutops (SM - Team Up 78/181) and/or  Omastar (SM - Team Up 76/181) with ease.  Yes, Kabutops only works while Active - locking down Supporters was well worth having to retreat something into it, and that assumes you weren't going for hit-and-run strat in the first place.  Those two were just the latest [F] Type Evolutions to cause issues with Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick; if the powers-that-be aren't willing to recognize that cards like Archie's Ace in the Hole, Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick, and Wally are always going to be problems waiting to happen, there's no help for them.  Relevant to a Legacy+ Format are its proven issues with Archeops and its potential with other [F] Types.  I don't have the time right now to be certain, but unless Archeops is the only real trouble-maker and it is banned, then Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick needs to be gone.  Frankly, I'd get rid of Archie's Ace in the Hole as well; I know there are decks that "need" it, but I ain't convinced that we're better off having them exist.

 

If we assume Legacy+ will use the Sword & Shield First Turn Rules (no Supporter T1) then it (probably) is fine.  A card isn't banned because every deck runs it maxed out; it is banned for the situations it creates... like wrecking Player 2's hand on Player 1's first turn because most competitive decks have high Item counts.  That is before considering you get to draw two cards for each Item shuffled away.  Because we do have Jirachi-EX, as well as Level Ball, Ultra Ball, etc. so ensuring that TecH Ghetsis is in hand isn't much of a problem T1.  Sure, it might whiff, but the reward far outweighs in many decks.  This also assumes the new Format won't lead to even more vicious hand or Item-lock decks... and I expect it will.

 

Hex Maniac/VS Seeker-lock has always been a concern; I think they only let her stay as long as she was allowed because they had bigger problems to ban... and sometimes she dealt with those problems.  See Vileplume (XY - Ancient Origins 3/98) and Forest of Giant Plants.  It was always "too good" in the Formats where you could easy search out Hex Maniac and drop it T1, denying your opponent their opening setup Abilities T2.  That it later became clear VS Seeker meant "Hex Lock" was a thing just sealed the deal.

 

Red Card means you have a decent hand disruption card that is once again brutal T1.  Unlike Ghetsis, it would still be a T1-legal play post Sword & Shield rule changes, though it also would be harder to get into hand without a Supporter to draw into it or search it out.  Can't say I like the risk, though; you have to think like a cheeky opponent who is going to all-but-win Turn 1 because they wrecked your hand before you could even do anything, while using cards that are still decent-to-great on other turns.

 

We may not agree on all the reasons for Wally, but we can agree on at least one, which will do for now.  I do hope you reconsider now that I've made it clear even T3 Evolution-lock is too soon.

 

My apologies for the length, and any points where my tone may sound hostile.  I had a few incredulous reaction moments, and I caught some spots where I later realized how it sounded... but this really is all in good fun. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Felidae_
21 hours ago, Otakutron said:

Just to be clear... we are going to be stuck with a lot of cool, old cards being useless competitively: that is the nature of most TCG's and Pokémon is no exception.  Most of each set is "filler" likely not intended to prove competitive, and I suspect there are more cards intended to be competitive that fail than cards intended as filler that end up being good afterall.

 

Now, if you think rendering even more of the oldest cards, which are only legal here and in Unlimited (and Unlimited has no Ladder support) to possibly help out a few others is worth it... okay.  I understand such a position, even if I don't agree with it.  I also need it clearly stated, because of the dangers of assuming.

Thank you for the extended answer. Way easier to engage in a discussion if the other person doesn't reply in one liners :).

 

I'll go over your points one by one:

 

Yes and No. You are 100% correct that the nature of the game is rendering the majority of cards useless, simply because there are better alternatives (more HP, More Damage, Better utility, etc.).

I won't deny that in an ultra competitive setting none of the “fun” cards from HGSS will see play, even with support from the HGSS sets.

 

However, if I think back to the old Unlimited days I remember why I sometimes played those weird decks, because they were fun to build and incredible satisfying if they worked the way I intended it.

If you give people more option in a format that is not as hardcore competitive as Standard and Expanded you will see much more experimentation.

Does that mean the meta will be entirely random? Of course not, but at least it gives room for some creativity that can at least work, rather than downright stifling it by denying players the tools to make those old cards work.

21 hours ago, Otakutron said:

I cannot speak of the current metagame for Legacy; I haven't had enough time to do more than play the odd Theme Format game lately.  With Standard, I can at least check out tournament results, maybe find some ******* videos discussing the current metagame.

 

What I can do is apply the knowledge I do have.  I know that most Pokémon LEGEND cards weren't worth the effort, but a few were (even after Pokémon-EX joined the game).  This is mostly a problem with Pokémon LEGEND in general; like many mechanics, they weren't well implemented.  I need more than just a fun, Unlimited Format deck you used to run to convince me it won't be a net negative.  I mean... you're asking to bring Seismitoad-EX decks into the Legacy Format.

 

As for your description of the metagame... can you be a little more specific?  It sounds quite nice right now.  Are the 5-6 top decks all Dusknoir/Empoleon/Flygon (gonna just write "DEF" from now on) variants?  Are the various 55/45 and 60/40 matchups only happening against the best counterdecks, or best would-be competitive decks maxed out on DEF counters?  How did you come by this metagame analysis?  Finally, if DEF truly is "too good" for the metagame, locking it down... why not seek bans instead?  They could even be "rotating" bannings intentionally just there to keep the metagame from growing stagnant (as opposed to just focusing on game balance).

Meta:

 

I should disclose that I'm not very active in the game for some time now, playing only a couple of games every other week. In addition I can only talk about the high end meta and draw my conclusion from that. It could look different at mid to low tier level, especially if you consider that a couple of top decks require Tropical Beach for their ideal build, so please bear that in mind.

 

Anyway, the undisputed king of the format is Empoleon + Dusknoir + Flygon.

The deck essentially has everything:

  • non-EX attacker and no EX support to ensure a positive prize trade against any EX deck.

  • build in draw engine on the main attacker

  • instant option for revenge damage with Flygon

  • ability to snipe the bench and distribute damage no gain maximum tempo advantage via Dusknoir

  • 1 energy Attack

  • no competitive viable deck that hits for weakness

 

The rest of the best decks consists of (without an order)Weavile + Eggs, Team Plasma, Sableye + Garbodor, Ray Eels and Turbo Genesect as tier 1, followed by Lando + Mewtwo + Garbodor, Turbo Darkrai, Ninetales + Amoonguss and Accelgore as tier 1.5.

After those you'll enter into the realms of decks that are competitive, but have a significant weakness against one or multiple of the top decks (. i.e. Lugia Legends, Turbo Blastoise / Feraligatr, Crustle lock, etc.)

 

You might say now: Hey, those are a lot of decks that you can play, why is the meta stall?

The problem is the lack of playable cards, especially in the trainer department, combined with games that tend to repeat themselves over and over, up to a point where I can tell with a high accuracy rating who will win the game after one turn, simply based on the likely performance of those decks.

You get the same situation sometimes in the standard format but then a new set is released and we move on. In Legacy we are stuck. Every deck is teched to the brim with wiggle room for 3-4 cards depending on personal preference and the rest is pretty much fixed.

21 hours ago, Otakutron said:

I can't tell if I'm failing to grasp what it is you're saying, or you mine. XD

 

I wanted incentives to increase participation in the Legacy Format because I believe the biggest cause of stagnation in its metagame is insufficient folks playing in it, especially with quality decks.  It can be the worst Format for "new" players, so long as it isn't just a sliver of older players participating.  Newbies tired of Theme, Standard, and Expanded - and having to maintain decks for those last two - should find the Legacy Format the obvious choice.  Right now, though... tradeable older cards are going to become more and more scarce, and Legacy-exclusive sets have the least amount of use but cost the same at the in-game shop.

Again, I'd heavily disagree with you here. What are new folks going to do, re-invent the wheel? There is no innovation because the card pool doesn't allow any more innovation (when I say innovation I refer to anything that can reliably tackle the best decks in the format).

I'd also agree with you that due to the relatively low distribution of playable cards in the HGSS era sets a new player has to invest a lot of coins in the hope to get something useful. The newer sets offer a way better distribution (at least to get them rolling into constructed). True, rotation can be an issue but you always got Expanded as a fallback option.

In Legacy you are stuck with one format and that can get boring over time.

 

Here is the catch though: Unlimited back in the days was exactly that semi casual format that a lot of people seek and I believe deep in my heart that the format (HGSS-XY, excluding the S&M power creep), if someone with a couple of brain cells where to draft a ban list, would be a safe haven for casual players and beginners (based on the players and decks that I encountered in my beginning).

21 hours ago, Otakutron said:

I may be on shaky ground where it requires a good knowledge of what is currently competitive in Legacy but not when it comes to Banned Lists for Pokémon. :D  A good Banned List looks not just at what is causing problems now, but what is likely to cause problems soon.  Yes, that means the real Banned List isn't always "good" by my standards, but I think they do an alright job.  While the PTCGO Unlimited Format at one time resembled the proposed Legacy+ Format, don't let that lull you into a false sense of security; it is always possible something was missed, or at least, didn't have the time it needed to become a real problem.  After all, it isn't like there were any Regional Championships using HS through ROS for the Format.

 

Archeops remains banned because Evolutions are already difficult enough to make work and, as long as it is legal, it is possible to get it into play before one player has a chance to manually Evolve.  It was initially banned for the specific Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick combo... which involved another, alternate target for Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick (sometimes two).  The alternates were for all the games where denying your opponent the capacity to Evolve from hand wouldn't matter.  The deck's most likely to pull this trick were Basic beatdown decks, Yveltal-EX decks of the time being a great example.

 

Minor quibble about Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick; it was finally banned to prevent Benching Kabutops (SM - Team Up 78/181) and/or  Omastar (SM - Team Up 76/181) with ease.  Yes, Kabutops only works while Active - locking down Supporters was well worth having to retreat something into it, and that assumes you weren't going for hit-and-run strat in the first place.  Those two were just the latest [F] Type Evolutions to cause issues with Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick; if the powers-that-be aren't willing to recognize that cards like Archie's Ace in the Hole, Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick, and Wally are always going to be problems waiting to happen, there's no help for them.  Relevant to a Legacy+ Format are its proven issues with Archeops and its potential with other [F] Types.  I don't have the time right now to be certain, but unless Archeops is the only real trouble-maker and it is banned, then Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick needs to be gone.  Frankly, I'd get rid of Archie's Ace in the Hole as well; I know there are decks that "need" it, but I ain't convinced that we're better off having them exist.

 

If we assume Legacy+ will use the Sword & Shield First Turn Rules (no Supporter T1) then it (probably) is fine.  A card isn't banned because every deck runs it maxed out; it is banned for the situations it creates... like wrecking Player 2's hand on Player 1's first turn because most competitive decks have high Item counts.  That is before considering you get to draw two cards for each Item shuffled away.  Because we do have Jirachi-EX, as well as Level Ball, Ultra Ball, etc. so ensuring that TecH Ghetsis is in hand isn't much of a problem T1.  Sure, it might whiff, but the reward far outweighs in many decks.  This also assumes the new Format won't lead to even more vicious hand or Item-lock decks... and I expect it will.

 

Hex Maniac/VS Seeker-lock has always been a concern; I think they only let her stay as long as she was allowed because they had bigger problems to ban... and sometimes she dealt with those problems.  See Vileplume (XY - Ancient Origins 3/98) and Forest of Giant Plants.  It was always "too good" in the Formats where you could easy search out Hex Maniac and drop it T1, denying your opponent their opening setup Abilities T2.  That it later became clear VS Seeker meant "Hex Lock" was a thing just sealed the deal.

 

Red Card means you have a decent hand disruption card that is once again brutal T1.  Unlike Ghetsis, it would still be a T1-legal play post Sword & Shield rule changes, though it also would be harder to get into hand without a Supporter to draw into it or search it out.  Can't say I like the risk, though; you have to think like a cheeky opponent who is going to all-but-win Turn 1 because they wrecked your hand before you could even do anything, while using cards that are still decent-to-great on other turns.

 

We may not agree on all the reasons for Wally, but we can agree on at least one, which will do for now.  I do hope you reconsider now that I've made it clear even T3 Evolution-lock is too soon.

I hate this line of argument so much, because that is precisely what is wrong with the way TPCI bans cards. I come from Magic, a game that I've been playing competitively now for 14 years.

Unless a card is so cancerous that it wraps an entire format, WotC will give players time to test counter measurements and let the format roll out. If something is deemed to strong, then we can discuss about a ban.

This whole idea of banning a card that could cause harm in the future is either a testimony that TPCI is terrible at designing their own cards, or that they have zero faith in the players.

I should also point out that the vast majority of the player base is so spoiled when it comes to item lock and hand disruption that I wonder how many of them would do in any other popular TCG title. Don't get me wrong, sometimes a deck is just dumb and should be banned (i.e. Amulet Hand Control, which required you to win the coin flip, or you straight up lose), but especially the Expanded format has gone above and beyond in recent times to straight up ban everything that resembles any form of disruption.

 

The same is true for Combo and stall decks: I understand that it isn't fun to play against those and I wouldn't bring something like that to a casual round with friends, but in a competitive setting those are legitimate strategies.

 

As for Archeops I can only repeat myself: Night March and Yveltal decks will use it (although Yveltal would be much happier about Gallade to build one of the strongest deck the Standard format has ever seen), but it will essentially be a silver bullet. Useful in some match-ups and useless in other. If the card oulw have been a problem prior to S&M we would have seen a ban or at least some complaints about it.

 

Ghetsis: First of all you only draw one card per item shuffled away. What I refered to when I mentioned the number of Ghetsis played in the format is the likelihood to hit the card turn one ( or rather the resources you have to invest on this gamble). In an HGSS-XY format I'm inclined to start the discussion again, as that format would feature much more trainer cards then what we see in Legacy at the moment.

I might have to repeat myself again, but we already played the HGSS-XY RS format. Are you suggesting that none of us knew how to build decks back then and that we missed broken and disruptive combos out of ignorance?

 

Hex Maniac: Was it? I can hardly recall many complains about the card. Hex Lock is only good if you got a draw engine on your own and you only got this when Zoroark GX was introduced. Otherwise you hardly saw anyone going for this as it meant sacrificing your supporter for the turn over and over again.

 

As for Red Card see my comment above.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Otakutron

Thanks for explaining and expanding upon so much.  I'm not going to quote each and everything.  Sometimes, because I agree, or at least agree to disagree.  Other times because there isn't much point in me quoting the entire thing; a sentence will suffice so you can follow what it is I am saying.  If you think I overlooked something though, go ahead and ask.

 

2 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

Again, I'd heavily disagree with you here. What are new folks going to do, re-invent the wheel? There is no innovation because the card pool doesn't allow any more innovation (when I say innovation I refer to anything that can reliably tackle the best decks in the format). 

 

If buy "re-invent the wheel" you mean "Play using a deck they know works, maybe with some minor tweaks." then... yes.  Not everyone gets the same thrill from building something new, or maybe it is more accurate that people do but they also just get a thrill from playing something that works.  There are some decks I've played that are tedious to run even when they're winning.

 

If I really want to play something different... I accept it probably isn't going to work, because this is a TCG; if the play-testers didn't figure out something at least resembling my idea when these cards were first being tested, they may have failed at their jobs. ;)  I don't think I can change your mind, in the sense you like what you like.  I'm just pointing out it may not be the crisis you think it is.

 

2 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

Here is the catch though: Unlimited back in the days was exactly that semi casual format...

 

If you experienced that, you may have gotten lucky.  The Unlimited Format was for folks who wanted to play the most busted decks they could, even on the PTCGO.  I didn't play it all that often for that very reason.  I am aware, maybe it was I who had the abnormal experience, but I wanted to let you know my own experience.

 

As a slight tangent, what I thought I knew about the game in 1999 is different than what I thought I knew about the game by 2001 and you'd better believe that was different than what I thought about the game by 2014.  Things haven't shifted as much over the last five years, but I'm just saying; how we remember a past Format or time period may be inaccurate, either because we're remembering incorrectly or because we just didn't understand what was really going on at the time.

 

3 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

I hate this line of argument so much, because that is precisely what is wrong with the way TPCI bans cards. I come from Magic, a game that I've been playing competitively now for 14 years.

Unless a card is so cancerous that it wraps an entire format, WotC will give players time to test counter measurements and let the format roll out. If something is deemed to strong, then we can discuss about a ban.

 

I am familiar with the company and the game of which you speak; there are reasons I don't play them, and one is I just don't enjoy it as much as you do.  Games with near opposite philosophies can successfully compete with each other, technically co-existing because not everyone enjoys the same things.  If you want a company slow to ban cards... seriously, you know Pokémon's history with card bans, right?

 

Nothing was banned until over two years into the game.  Then - barring some questionable promos - one card was banned, and over a year later, a second that was from the same set.  Those two rotated from the Standard Format, and nothing else was banned until 2015.  A 12-year gap!  Lysandre's Trump Card broke that streak, and it was pretty clearly going to break the Format unless enough competitive players got it in their heads that it wasn't good or something ultimately more broken crowded it out.  Neither happend, and so a card released in November of 2014 was banned in June of 2015.  I lost track of how long it has been since we had a card banned in the Standard Format; nothing is banned right now, and I think it has been that way since XY - Phantom Forces (LTC's set) rotated.

 

Even if I shared your philosophy when it comes to bannings... the Expanded Format is the slower approach.  Stuff is banned there because they've been causing problems, and it has finally gotten to the point it cannot be ignored.  Sometimes over here, but also in Japan.

 

3 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

...but especially the Expanded format has gone above and beyond in recent times to straight up ban everything that resembles any form of disruption. 

 

Because Pokémon is not like many other games.  The cards that have been banned have been banned because they can wreck an opponent's hand before that player ever has a turn.  I'd rather they just all received a massive errata (and a reprint, even if as a limited run promo) just stating they cannot be used on a player's first turn, or with an alternate first turn effect.  Then again, I'd also rather the powers-that-be stopped printing Pokémon capable of attacking on a player's first turn for damage to prevent donks, as opposed to completely doing away with T1 attacks.  If a special rule had to be passed, I'd rather it was something like "Ignore all damage done by attacks on a player's first turn." so that each player had a full turn of setup before they could start slugging it out, but that is because I think most of the game's balance issues are about its pacing.

 

4 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

As for Archeops I can only repeat myself: Night March and Yveltal decks will use it (although Yveltal would be much happier about Gallade to build one of the strongest deck the Standard format has ever seen), but it will essentially be a silver bullet. Useful in some match-ups and useless in other. If the card oulw have been a problem prior to S&M we would have seen a ban or at least some complaints about it.

 

We did see complaints about it.  Well, I did.  Considering you're the guy who wants players to be given time to find natural counters for "problem" cards and combos, shouldn't you give players time to discover problem cards and combos? ;)  You also cited two decks that were very strong, often dominant, during their tenure and you plan on adding the cards that made them dominant to Legacy, so I don't find this a compelling argument.

 

4 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

Ghetsis: First of all you only draw one card per item shuffled away. What I refered to when I mentioned the number of Ghetsis played in the format is the likelihood to hit the card turn one ( or rather the resources you have to invest on this gamble). In an HGSS-XY format I'm inclined to start the discussion again, as that format would feature much more trainer cards then what we see in Legacy at the moment.

I might have to repeat myself again, but we already played the HGSS-XY RS format. Are you suggesting that none of us knew how to build decks back then and that we missed broken and disruptive combos out of ignorance?

 

Sorry about messing up on Ghetsis' effect; it was a silly mistake born of how my mind process's the effect; each Item Ghetsis shuffles away is a "-1" for that player, which is seen as a "+1" for the player using Ghetsis.  Each card drawn is seen as a "+1" for that player as well, so each is a "+2" in terms of gross card advantage.

 

I stand by the rest.  We have Jirachi-EX and we have both Level Ball and Ultra Ball in the Legacy Format already.  We'd be adding Battle Compressor and VS Seeker.  However, the new T1 rules post-Sword & Shield make this a moot point even for a discussion of a hypothetical Format.

 

I mentioned this earlier but no, I do not think you and your friends goofing around in the PTCGO Unlimited Format were ruthlessly competing against each other because you've stated how many "fun" decks you used, decks that I wasn't seeing or at least hearing about when people talked about what was tearing things up back then.  I could simply be ignorant, but it really sounds like rose-colored glasses tinting your memories of your early (earlier?) days in the game.  Ask yourself this: if there were high stakes on the games you played, would you have always run the same deck?  If "No", then do you think your friends may have been doing the same?  So... how many games out of your "sample" do you think involved less-than-highly-competitive decks?

 

4 hours ago, Felidae_ said:

Hex Maniac: Was it? I can hardly recall many complains about the card. Hex Lock is only good if you got a draw engine on your own and you only got this when Zoroark GX was introduced. Otherwise you hardly saw anyone going for this as it meant sacrificing your supporter for the turn over and over again.

 

Again, this says more about your memory or your own skill (at the time) than about Hex Lock.  Zoroark-GX wasn't the first supplemental draw Ability.  Do you remember why Shaymin-EX (ROS) was so expensive back in the day?  That's right, so many decks were using it to improve their opening setups, so that an Ultra Ball (or other search) could function as an out to a draw effect, and let them burn their Supporter on something other than draw power.  It didn't happen every game, but it was hardly an uncommon play for someone to drop a Shaymin-EX or three on their first turn before using their Supporter on Hex Maniac so you couldn't do the same.

 

Hex Maniac was a loose staple during its tenure; there were times when decks weren't running a copy, but much of the time they were.  A few would run more, but most ran one and three-to-four VS Seeker.  They also ran their supplemental draw effects you forgot about.  Some were Item-based draw options.  Most were Abilities you've blanked from your mind, like that of Shaymin-EX (ROS) or Octillery (BKT).  It also may not have been as common as you remember because we're dealing with a combo where all the pieces?  They're already in most decks; they just don't get used in that manner until they run into an Ability-reliant deck where it matters.

 

My apologies as once again, this is much messier than I liked.  I actually have been typing this for the last two hours, when I was supposed to be taking out the trash.  I kind of need to go now. XP  Before that, I really am trying to keep things courteous.  Yeah, I am challenging some of your claims.  Maybe in the end, you'll prove me wrong, but with what I got, I've got to challenge them.  You remember it one way, I remember it another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...