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shinygeodude

[CARD] Giratina (97/214 LoT) can repeatedly use its ability in the same turn

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shinygeodude

Card: Giratina (97/214 LoT)
Expected Action: Its ability's description begins by saying, "Once during your turn". So if the same card returns to the discard pile during the turn (for example, with the effect of Giovanni's Exile), one should not be able to use that card's ability again for the rest of that turn.
Actual Action: This ability can be used an unlimited number of times, provided you can get the necessary cards in your hand to return them to the discard pile.
Steps to Reproduce: With a Giratina in your discard pile, activate its ability. Then use a card such as Giovanni's Exile or another method to return that same card to the discard pile. Note that that same card's ability is once again selectable.

Edited by shinygeodude
removed references to Exeggcute, since it was resolved

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RestlessThought

Not considered a bug with Exeggcute because it goes to your hand first. The hand is private knowledge, so can't say if it's the same Exeggcute, allowing a loophole that lets you use the same Exeggcute's ability repeatedly.

 

Giratina going from discard to bench repeatedly should count as a bug though, because both players can clearly see it's the same Giratina. It goes from one public knowledge area (discard) to another (bench).

 

Including a game log for Giratina using its ability twice in one turn below:

 

Spoiler

Game Log Output Begins Here:
    1. It is now RestlessThought's turn (Turn #1).
    2. RestlessThought drew VS Seeker.
    3. Ella drew a card.
    4. RestlessThought drew Faba.
    5. Ella drew a card.
    6. RestlessThought drew VS Seeker.
    7. Ella drew a card.
    8. RestlessThought drew Mysterious Treasure.
    9. Ella drew a card.
    10. RestlessThought drew Junk Arm.
    11. Ella drew a card.
    12. RestlessThought drew Exeggcute.
    13. Ella drew a card.
    14. RestlessThought drew Giratina.
    15. Ella drew a card.
    16. Exeggcute became RestlessThought's new Active Pokémon.
    17. RestlessThought drew Junk Arm.
    18. RestlessThought played Mysterious Treasure.
    19. RestlessThought drew Tapu Lele-GX.
    20. RestlessThought put Tapu Lele-GX onto the Bench.
    21. RestlessThought's Tapu Lele-GX used its Wonder Tag Ability.
    22. RestlessThought drew Giovanni's Exile.
    23. RestlessThought's Giratina used its Distortion Door Ability.
    24. Ella's Roggenrola had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    25. Ella's Diglett had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    26. RestlessThought played Giovanni's Exile.
    27. RestlessThought's Giratina used its Distortion Door Ability.
    28. Ella's Roggenrola had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    29. Ella's Diglett had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    30. You conceded the game.

Game Log Output Ends Here

*** Debug Game Log Output Begins Here ***

    Data For Entry Number: 1
    Log Entry: It is now RestlessThought's turn (Turn #1).
    No debug data found, likely this is an entry for drawing a card, displaying coin flip results, or a similar action.

    Data For Entry Number: 2
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew VS Seeker.
    Source: 
        Name: VSSeeker
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 109
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 3
    Log Entry: Ella drew a card.
    Source: 
        Name: Roggenrola
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 048
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 4
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Faba.
    Source: 
        Name: Faba
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Lost Thunder
        Set Number: 173
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 5
    Log Entry: Ella drew a card.
    Source: Card not revealed yet so there's no card data. This is likely from a draw card action. Player who performed this action: 
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 6
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew VS Seeker.
    Source: 
        Name: VSSeeker
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 109
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 7
    Log Entry: Ella drew a card.
    Source: Card not revealed yet so there's no card data. This is likely from a draw card action. Player who performed this action: 
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 8
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Mysterious Treasure.
    Source: 
        Name: MysteriousTreasure
        Set Name: <i>Sun & Moon—Forbidden Light</i>
        Set Number: 113
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 9
    Log Entry: Ella drew a card.
    Source: 
        Name: Spearow
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 078
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 10
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Junk Arm.
    Source: 
        Name: JunkArm
        Set Name: <i>HS—Triumphant</i>
        Set Number: 087
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 11
    Log Entry: Ella drew a card.
    Source: 
        Name: Diglett
        Set Name: <i>XY</i>
        Set Number: 058
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 12
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Exeggcute.
    Source: 
        Name: Exeggcute
        Set Name: <i>Black & White—Plasma Freeze</i>
        Set Number: 004
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 13
    Log Entry: Ella drew a card.
    Source: Card not revealed yet so there's no card data. This is likely from a draw card action. Player who performed this action: 
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 14
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Giratina.
    Source: 
        Name: Giratina
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Lost Thunder
        Set Number: 097
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 15
    Log Entry: Ella drew a card.
    Source: Card not revealed yet so there's no card data. This is likely from a draw card action. Player who performed this action: 
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 16
    Log Entry: Exeggcute became RestlessThought's new Active Pokémon.
    Source: 
        Name: Exeggcute
        Set Name: <i>Black & White—Plasma Freeze</i>
        Set Number: 004
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 17
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Junk Arm.
    Source: 
        Name: JunkArm
        Set Name: <i>HS—Triumphant</i>
        Set Number: 087
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 18
    Log Entry: RestlessThought played Mysterious Treasure.
    Source: 
        Name: MysteriousTreasure
        Set Name: <i>Sun & Moon—Forbidden Light</i>
        Set Number: 113
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 19
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Tapu Lele-GX.
    Source: 
        Name: TapuLeleGX
        Set Name: <i>Sun & Moon—Guardians Rising</i>
        Set Number: 060
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 20
    Log Entry: RestlessThought put Tapu Lele-GX onto the Bench.
    Source: 
        Name: TapuLeleGX
        Set Name: <i>Sun & Moon—Guardians Rising</i>
        Set Number: 060
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 21
    Log Entry: RestlessThought's Tapu Lele-GX used its Wonder Tag Ability.
    Source: 
        Name: TapuLeleGX
        Set Name: <i>Sun & Moon—Guardians Rising</i>
        Set Number: 060
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 22
    Log Entry: RestlessThought drew Giovanni's Exile.
    Source: 
        Name: GiovannisExile
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Unbroken Bonds
        Set Number: 174
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 23
    Log Entry: RestlessThought's Giratina used its Distortion Door Ability.
    Source: 
        Name: Giratina
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Lost Thunder
        Set Number: 097
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 24
    Log Entry: Ella's Roggenrola had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    Source: 
        Name: Roggenrola
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 048
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 25
    Log Entry: Ella's Diglett had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    Source: 
        Name: Diglett
        Set Name: <i>XY</i>
        Set Number: 058
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 26
    Log Entry: RestlessThought played Giovanni's Exile.
    Source: 
        Name: GiovannisExile
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Unbroken Bonds
        Set Number: 174
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 27
    Log Entry: RestlessThought's Giratina used its Distortion Door Ability.
    Source: 
        Name: Giratina
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Lost Thunder
        Set Number: 097
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Current Player

    Data For Entry Number: 28
    Log Entry: Ella's Roggenrola had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    Source: 
        Name: Roggenrola
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 048
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 29
    Log Entry: Ella's Diglett had 1 damage counters put on it from Distortion Door.
    Source: 
        Name: Diglett
        Set Name: <i>XY</i>
        Set Number: 058
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Actor: 
        Name: 
        Set Name: No Set Data
        Set Number: No Set Number
        Card Type: No Card Type
        Entity Name: PlayerEntity
        Owner: Opponent

    Data For Entry Number: 30
    Log Entry: You conceded the game.
    No debug data found, likely this is an entry for drawing a card, displaying coin flip results, or a similar action.

*** Debug Game Log Output Ends Here ***

*** Debug Current Game State Output Begins Here ***

*** Cards Data Begins Here ***

    P1 Cards In Deck Cards (Count: 44)

    P1 Cards In Discard (Count: 2) :
    Top Card #1 in card group: 
        Name: MysteriousTreasure
        Set Name: <i>Sun & Moon—Forbidden Light</i>
        Set Number: 113
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Card #2 in card group:     
        Name: GiovannisExile
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Unbroken Bonds
        Set Number: 174
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player

    P1 Active Pokemon (Count: 1) :
    Top Card #1 in card group: 
        Name: Exeggcute
        Set Name: <i>Black & White—Plasma Freeze</i>
        Set Number: 004
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player

    P1 Bench Pokemon (Count: 2) :
    Top Card #1 in card group: 
        Name: TapuLeleGX
        Set Name: <i>Sun & Moon—Guardians Rising</i>
        Set Number: 060
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player
    Card #2 in card group:     
        Name: Giratina
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Lost Thunder
        Set Number: 097
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Current Player

    P1 Cards In Prize Pile (Count: 6) :
    Card 1 not yet revealed
    Card 2 not yet revealed
    Card 3 not yet revealed
    Card 4 not yet revealed
    Card 5 not yet revealed
    Card 6 not yet revealed

    P1 Cards In Hand (Count: 5) :
    Top Card #1 in card group: 
        Name: VSSeeker
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 109
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Card #2 in card group:     
        Name: Faba
        Set Name: Sun & Moon—Lost Thunder
        Set Number: 173
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Card #3 in card group:     
        Name: VSSeeker
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 109
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Card #4 in card group:     
        Name: JunkArm
        Set Name: <i>HS—Triumphant</i>
        Set Number: 087
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player
    Card #5 in card group:     
        Name: JunkArm
        Set Name: <i>HS—Triumphant</i>
        Set Number: 087
        Card Type: TrainerCard
        Entity Name: TrainerCard
        Owner: Current Player

    P2 Cards In Deck Cards (Count: 47)

    P2 Cards In Discard (Count: 0) :

    P2 Active Pokemon (Count: 1) :
    Top Card #1 in card group: 
        Name: Spearow
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 078
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent

    P2 Bench Pokemon (Count: 2) :
    Top Card #1 in card group: 
        Name: Roggenrola
        Set Name: <i>XY—Phantom Forces</i>
        Set Number: 048
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent
    Card #2 in card group:     
        Name: Diglett
        Set Name: <i>XY</i>
        Set Number: 058
        Card Type: Pokemon
        Entity Name: Pokemon
        Owner: Opponent

    P2 Cards In Prize Pile (Count: 6) :
    Card 1 not yet revealed
    Card 2 not yet revealed
    Card 3 not yet revealed
    Card 4 not yet revealed
    Card 5 not yet revealed
    Card 6 not yet revealed

    P2 Cards In Hand (Count: 4) :
    Card 1 not yet revealed
    Card 2 not yet revealed
    Card 3 not yet revealed
    Card 4 not yet revealed

    All Player Area, Out Of Play Cards: (Count: 0) :

    All Player Area, Stadium Cards: (Count: 0) :

    All Player Area, Active Trainer: (Count: **** **

**

****** Cards Data Ends Here ***


*** Debug Current Game State Output Ends Here ***

Versions Data:
Client Version: 2.65.1.4419
Server Version: 2.65.0.4547
Bundles Version: 1950
Archetypes Bundle Version: 12950
Localization Bundle Version: 12859
Current Game ID: 81ea4580-ceb4-11e9-a9b0-22000a90103b

 

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RestlessThought

Found the ruling:

 

Quote

Q. If I use Exeggcute's "Propagation" Ability to retrieve it from the Discard Pile into my hand, then use something like Ultra Ball or Computer Search to discard Exeggcute, would I be able to use "Propagation" again to retrieve it from the Discard Pile?
A. Yes, whenever Exeggcute is in the Discard Pile, you may use Propagation during your turn as long as its Ability has not been disabled. (Plasma Freeze FAQ; May 16, 2013 TPCi Rules Team)

 

http://compendium.pokegym.net/compendium-bw.html

Edited by RestlessThought

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shinygeodude

I see, thank you. In my last experience against an Exeggcute deck, however, my opponent was able to use its ability more than 4 times in one turn, which obviously meant he was using the same one more than once. I didn't realize that was actually legal. It doesn't solve the Giratina question though, as you mentioned.

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Mod_GuruLot
8 hours ago, RestlessThought said:

Not considered a bug with Exeggcute because it goes to your hand first. The hand is private knowledge, so can't say if it's the same Exeggcute, allowing a loophole that lets you use the same Exeggcute's ability repeatedly.

 

Giratina going from discard to bench repeatedly should count as a bug though, because both players can clearly see it's the same Giratina. It goes from one public knowledge area (discard) to another (bench).

 

Including a game log for Giratina using its ability twice in one turn below:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Hello RestlessThought, 

 

You're right! Thank you for providing the game log that explains it all. 

 

Hope this was very helpful for the fellow trainer shinygeodude. 

 

 

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Mod_GuruLot
10 hours ago, shinygeodude said:

Cards: Exeggcute (4/116 PLF, 102/101 PLB) & Giratina (97/214 LoT)
Expected Action: Both of the above cards have abilities that allow them to be removed from the discard pile. Both of the abilities' descriptions begin by saying, "Once during your turn". So if the same cards return to the discard pile during the turn (for example, with the effect of Ultra Ball or Giovanni's Exile, among others), one should not be able to use those cards' abilities again for the rest of that turn.
Actual Action: These abilities can be used an unlimited number of times, provided you can get the necessary cards in your hand to return them to the discard pile.
Steps to Reproduce: With either of these cards in your discard pile, activate its ability. Then use a card such as Ultra Ball, Giovanni's Exile, etc. to return that same card to the discard pile. Note that that same card's ability is once again selectable.

 

Hello shinygeodude, 

 

I've edited the title of your topic to match the format used in this sub. Thanks!

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shinygeodude

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I went ahead and updated the post to remove the references to Exeggcute, since it was resolved, and to make clear that there's still a problem with Giratina.

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armlessturtle

There is no problem with "Distortion Door". When a Pokémon leaves play, it loses all memory of what it did and what happened and is treated as a new object. That you "see it" go from play->discard->play as the same card is not relevant. The "Once per turn" on these types of cards is a misnomer, and is probably just a template for abilities that are manually activated.

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shinygeodude
On 9/5/2019 at 9:28 AM, armlessturtle said:

There is no problem with "Distortion Door". When a Pokémon leaves play, it loses all memory of what it did and what happened and is treated as a new object. That you "see it" go from play->discard->play as the same card is not relevant. The "Once per turn" on these types of cards is a misnomer, and is probably just a template for abilities that are manually activated.

That's...odd. Doesn't seem right to me. Not that I don't believe you. Thanks for the answer.

Edited by shinygeodude

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