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Rolci

Escape Rope pulls in Primal Groudon from bench???

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Rolci
Posted (edited)

Hello. I encountered a bug in the game just now when my opponent used escape rope which successfully pulled in my Primal Groudon from the bench. Primal Groudon is well-known to have a "stop" ability which clearly states: "Whenever your opponent plays a Trainer card (excluding Pokemon Tools and Stadium cards) prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokemon." In the game I just played a Trainer card was played and it DID HAVE an effect on Primal Groudon, in spite of the stop rule saying "prevent ALL effects". It doesn't say "all effects except those that affect this Pokemon and another", it says all (with the stated exception in mind, which does not apply in this case). Can you please fix this? Thank you.

Edited by Rolci

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RobRatt
Posted (edited)

From the bench?  This isn't a bug.

 

Q. If I use Escape Rope but my opponent's Active Pokemon has the "Omega Barrier" Ancient Trait does he or she have to switch it? Or if they have a Pokemon with "Omega Barrier" on the bench can he or she choose that and not switch it to Active?

A. If your opponent has an Active Pokemon with "Omega Barrier", then Escape Rope's effect will be blocked. If a Pokemon with "Omega Barrier" is on the bench, choosing that Pokemon will not stop the effect as the Active was the target of Escape Rope. (Primal Clash FAQ; Feb 5, 2015 TPCi Rules Team)

 

On the other hand, if Primal Groudon is Active, it's still possible to push it to the bench.

 

Q. If my opponent's Active Pokemon has the "Omega Barrier" Ancient Trait, can I use Lysandre to switch one of my benched Pokemon with it?
A. If your opponent's Benched Pokemon has "Omega Barrier", then Lysandre's effect will be blocked. But choosing a Benched Pokemon without "Omega Barrier" will cause it to switch with the Active Pokemon because the Benched Pokemon is the target of Lysandre. (Apr 9, 2015 TPCi Rules Team)

 

Omega Barrier doesn't stop EVERYTHING, every time.

 

Edited by RobRatt

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Rolci
Posted (edited)

Well, rules are rules. Thanks for the reply. But I still maintain in this case: however clear they are making the "rule", the statement on the card itself will always remain even clearer:

 

"... prevent ALL effects of that card done to this Pokemon."

 

All. Not "all, unless we come up with a by-rule to say otherwise". - All should mean all. Always. - My opinion stands. The pulling-in was unfair. But they call the shots.

 

As a side-note, upon closer inspection of the text on Escape Rope it states:

 

"Each player switches their Active Pokémon with 1 of their Benched Pokémon. Your opponent switches first. (If a player does not have a Benched Pokémon, that player doesn't switch Pokémon.)"

 

For all practical purposes, I did not have a benched pokemon, not one that could be affected by trainers, based on Barrier effects. - So the "doesn't switch" stipulation should have had full sway. - No trainer should ever be able to affect a pokemon that has Omega Barrier.

 

Finally, Rob, quoting what you state about Escape Rope, where you say "as the Active was the target of Escape Rope", again I cannot agree. - It does not say on the card what the target is, since there will be a place switch the benched pokemon is as much a target as the active. Not only that, if you think about it, in the majority of cases Escape Rope is used either to switch your own pokemon for strategic purposes, or to "lysandre in" the opponent's benched pokemon for execution. - It is very rare that someone "targets the opponent's active pokemon" to remove danger. If anything, the game should have an artificial intelligence to see this and determine what the ACTUAL target is. If the active pokemon is unable to attack (for example it would need energy to do so but has none) it is clear that it cannot possible be the real target. In that case the AI should not allow tampering with Omega Barrier. Of course, for that the devs should smarten up the game a few notches. Until they do that, they will take the easy way out and make by-rules with added "explanations" (excuses). We need a smarter game.

 

Sorry that came out long-winded. I am just upset at the unfairness. No one likes to lose a 10-streak.

Edited by Rolci
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SandaledOtter
Quote

Each player switches his or her Active Pokémon with 1 of his or her Benched Pokémon. (Your opponent switches first. If a player does not have a Benched Pokémon, he or she doesn't switch Pokémon.)

That is Escape Rope targeting the Active Pokemon.

 

Quote

Switch 1 of your opponent's Benched Pokémon with his or her Active Pokémon.

That's Lysandre targeting the benched Pokemon.

 

The Pokemon referenced first after "switch" is the direct object of the verb switch, and therefor the target of the card.

 

I often wonder if sentence diagramming is still taught in school, not that that would always help with an international population which has differing rules for sentence construction.

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RobRatt
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rolci said:

Sorry that came out long-winded. I am just upset at the unfairness. No one likes to lose a 10-streak.

 

Hey, I totally understand.  I remember vividly the first day I played against Primal Groudon, at a major Regionals.  If I had won the 9th game, I would have made Finals.  When I tried to Lysandre the first time, and couldn't, that confused feeling swept over me, "HUH?"  I didn't have a firm grasp on these technicalities either, and now I would've used Escape Rope.  I came close to beating him still, but I would have won had I been more familiar with the rulings.  We were a long way from home, so it was disappointing, and expensive.

 

Which brings up the point, please realize that those "quotes" are not mine, but the official rulings of TPCi, regardless of playing Online or off.  The Online game matches real-world play (except for the bugs, of course), so it's not a matter of better A.I. (or a smarter game).  You can find these rulings yourself by googling PokeGym Compendium.

 

Finally, SandaledOtter is correct, and now maybe you can see that Escape Rope (and related cards) do actually"target" a specific card (Active or benched).

 

Edited by RobRatt

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Mod_Alder

Hello trainers, thank you everyone for helping out a fellow trainer, I know I have gotten confused on rulings like this before.

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Rolci
Posted (edited)

Thanks for the replies, I accept the rulings, as they currently stand. Which, as we know, are themselves subject to change all the time.

 

I remember when I was using a Suicune deck to counteract EXes, and my strategies used to rely on my Blasto EX's ability to switch to Suicune when facing elimination, by using Rapid Spin, until one day it no longer switched. The explanation for the change was that Suicune's ability did not state "by the opponent's Pokemon-EX", it said "by Pokemon EX", which apparently meant the opponent's OR my own. Fair enough, I thought. I did raise complaint in a ticket, to no avail.

 

Regarding the brilliant logic (and sarcastic remarks) SandaledOtter was using trying to educate an English teacher in English syntax, I would invite you to attempt to construct a sentence where both pokemon are subjects of the verb "switch". It would sound awkward due to the different positions the Pokemon are holding, which must be stated to achieve the desired effect. "Each player switches two of their Pokemon, one of which must be the active Pokemon." You see, even though you simply want to create a switching of places between two Pokemon, one of which should be your active, but both of whom are equal objects, the simplest "plain English" way to express this concisely in a short sentence on a card is by mentioning the two Pokemon separately, unavoidably placing one before the other in the sentence. That does not mean that one becomes "more of an object" than the other. It is just a more natural-sounding way to say "both players switch two of their own Pokemon, one of which must be their active Pokemon".

 

To further highlight the fact that the first Pokemon following the verb "switch" cannot possibly be the object of the switching, refer back to the above example involving Blasto-EX and Suicune. If your logic were valid the object in Blasto's attack "switch this Pokemon with 1 of your benched Pokemon" would be Blasto itself, therefore the attack's nature would negate Suicune's ability and Suicune would be switched. Which it no longer is.

 

Please excuse my not having been taught sentence diagramming in my school, I was born and raised in a rural part of a non-English speaking country, therefore English is not my native language. I was 8 when I had to learn for the first time that the whole world does not speak "my" language and my chosen foreign language was German at that time. I had no clue about English even existing for many more years to come. No need to offend people you know nothing about.

 

It should be no more possible to affect Primal Groudon with Escape Rope than to affect Suicune with Rapid Spin. If Suicune remains unaffected, so should Primal Groudon. End of story.

Edited by Rolci
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GR0
Posted (edited)

There's a difference between effect and consequence. Escape Rope's effect is to switch your active Pokemon. As in: the effect only affects your active Pokemon. It gets sent back to the bench as it isn't unaffected by Items. The consequence of having no more active Pokemon is that you need to send in another one, and this can't be your previous Pokemon because the keyword used, switching, forces you to select another. This isn't the effect of Escape Rope, but simply a consequence of having your active Pokemon sent back to the bench so Primal Groudon can be selected, unlike something like Lysandre that works vice-versa (effect being to send a benched Pokemon as active, consequence being you can't have 2 active Pokemon thus need to return the previous active).

Not the proper terms, just a clarification in my own words.

Edited by GR0

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Rolci
8 minutes ago, GR0 said:

There's a difference between effect and consequence. Escape Rope's effect is to switch your active Pokemon. As in: the effect only affects your active Pokemon. It gets sent back to the bench as it isn't unaffected by Items. The consequence of having no more active Pokemon is that you need to send in another one, and this can't be your previous Pokemon because the keyword used, switching, forces you to select another. This isn't the effect of Escape Rope, but simply a consequence of having your active Pokemon sent back to the bench, unlike something like Lysandre that works vice-versa (effect being to send a benched Pokemon as active, consequence being you can't have 2 active Pokemon thus need to return the previous active).

Not the proper terms, just a clarification in my own words.

 

Same difference again. So if effects are negated while consequences are okay then why does a Blasto-EX's Rapid Spin attack not negate a benched PB Suicune's ability as a consequence? Why do they not switch places like they used to?

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SandaledOtter
5 hours ago, Rolci said:

Thanks for the replies, I accept the rulings, as they currently stand. Which, as we know, are themselves subject to change all the time.

 

I remember when I was using a Suicune deck to counteract EXes, and my strategies used to rely on my Blasto EX's ability to switch to Suicune when facing elimination, by using Rapid Spin, until one day it no longer switched. The explanation for the change was that Suicune's ability did not state "by the opponent's Pokemon-EX", it said "by Pokemon EX", which apparently meant the opponent's OR my own. Fair enough, I thought. I did raise complaint in a ticket, to no avail.

 

Regarding the brilliant logic (and sarcastic remarks) SandaledOtter was using trying to educate an English teacher in English syntax, I would invite you to attempt to construct a sentence where both pokemon are subjects of the verb "switch". It would sound awkward due to the different positions the Pokemon are holding, which must be stated to achieve the desired effect. "Each player switches two of their Pokemon, one of which must be the active Pokemon." You see, even though you simply want to create a switching of places between two Pokemon, one of which should be your active, but both of whom are equal objects, the simplest "plain English" way to express this concisely in a short sentence on a card is by mentioning the two Pokemon separately, unavoidably placing one before the other in the sentence. That does not mean that one becomes "more of an object" than the other. It is just a more natural-sounding way to say "both players switch two of their own Pokemon, one of which must be their active Pokemon".

 

To further highlight the fact that the first Pokemon following the verb "switch" cannot possibly be the object of the switching, refer back to the above example involving Blasto-EX and Suicune. If your logic were valid the object in Blasto's attack "switch this Pokemon with 1 of your benched Pokemon" would be Blasto itself, therefore the attack's nature would negate Suicune's ability and Suicune would be switched. Which it no longer is.

 

Please excuse my not having been taught sentence diagramming in my school, I was born and raised in a rural part of a non-English speaking country, therefore English is not my native language. I was 8 when I had to learn for the first time that the whole world does not speak "my" language and my chosen foreign language was German at that time. I had no clue about English even existing for many more years to come. No need to offend people you know nothing about.

 

It should be no more possible to affect Primal Groudon with Escape Rope than to affect Suicune with Rapid Spin. If Suicune remains unaffected, so should Primal Groudon. End of story.

 

It wasn't meant as sarcasm. Of course, sarcasm isn't easily detected on the internet. I do actually wonder that from time to time, while being aware that the non-English-first world will have a different level of experience with the language.

 

I wouldn't try to construct such a sentence, and the player would be made the target if neither of the cards were the target.

 

As for Blastoise and Suicune, I don't know. Your reasoning there seems sound, and I'd question if something was lost in translation from the intent of the original Japanese.

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