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Otakutron

Post-Game Reveal

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Otakutron
Posted (edited)

The short version is that, when playing with the physical cards, you can always elect to reveal your hand, Prizes, even the contents and order of your deck to your opponent to help "explain" a win or loss.  You can't do that in the PTCGO.  You cannot even look at your own Prizes or the contents/order of your deck after you lose.  That... seems like an easily remedied issue, even if it barely counts as a problem.

 

Though I do know some dubious in-game behaviors stem from folks playing out as much as they can of their hand and/or deck instead of just quickly wrapping up the game because they want to know or show.  This can be very frustrating if you're winning and your opponent starts to do this; ignoring times when they stumble onto a win (good for them?), you just have to sit there and wait before you can claim the win you've earned because your only other option is to concede. @_@

 

So... why not add options to let your opponent View such things after the match?  Doing it this way, you don't even have folks being forced to view such things and slowing down the game.  Those who care can look so long as those who also care have allowed it; everyone else proceeds the same as it works now.  The only hangup I can think of is how the game goes from the "playing the game" screen to the "results" screen.

 

So, what does everyone else think?

 

Note: Rephrased below, as well as including a suggestion from @Sakura150612

Edited by Otakutron
Added note to the end, corrected some comma usage.
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RobRatt

In the real world, my opponent has touched my cards, and vice versa.  During the setup and game, we've exchanged glances, smiles, and conversation about our lives to some degree.  It's one of the things I love about playing Pokémon, and there have been many fun dinners and sightseeing excursions with "new" friends because of it.

 

Online?  ...Not so much.  I don't know that cartoon picture with a weird name (xyz123?).  We haven't communicated, at all, or built any type of relationship.  Unless I wanted to copy his deck idea, which good players would have turned off, I can't imagine EVER wanting to see his hand or prizes after the game was over.  Who would care?  ...Onto the next game.

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Sakura150612

Haven't played it in a while, but there's this online Yugioh game that (IIRC) has a replay function. You can save any game you want as a replay and then revisit it whenever you want to analyze the game.

 

The reason your suggestion reminded me of this is because when in this replay mode you could choose to watch the game from your opponent's perspective (that, or simply watch the game with both hands exposed. Forgot which one it was).

 

Doubt they'll ever make it, but such a replay mode would be interesting to have here. It would cover what you're suggesting as well.

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SandaledOtter
2 hours ago, RobRatt said:

Unless I wanted to copy his deck idea, which good players would have turned off, I can't imagine EVER wanting to see his hand or prizes after the game was over.  Who would care?  ...Onto the next game.

 

Good PLAYERS play well, and revealing the contents of their decks after the match shouldn't affect that.

If they're good players, they would beat someone who plays poorly and is using the exact same deck.

If anything, allowing worse players to see their decks is a helpful and friendly gesture, allowing others a chance to see what they could do to improve themselves.

Keeping your deck hidden even after beating your opponent? Find the opposites of the above adjectives.

 

 

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RobRatt
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, SandaledOtter said:

If anything, allowing worse players to see their decks is a helpful and friendly gesture, allowing others a chance to see what they could do to improve themselves.

Keeping your deck hidden even after beating your opponent? Find the opposites of the above adjectives.

 

As long as I've been playing, my Deck List Sharing option has been set to "Share in Friend Battles" only.  The other choices are Share With Everyone, or Do Not Share.  Why would this be different?

 

Since PTCGO is also a testing ground (and practice) for real-life play, should it be mandatory to "share your deck" with everyone?  Would that be fair?  If someone lives in Europe, and preparing for Worlds on another continent (airfare, hotel, etc.), should they be expected to expose all 60 cards to anyone and everyone on the VS Ladder?

 

Helpful, friendly gesture?  To who?  We deserve choices.

 

Edited by RobRatt
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Otakutron
2 hours ago, RobRatt said:

Helpful, friendly gesture?  To who?  We deserve choices.

 

Everything I suggested required you "opt in", so that players like you wouldn't have to change at all.

 

5 hours ago, RobRatt said:

Unless I wanted to copy his deck idea, which good players would have turned off, I can't imagine EVER wanting to see his hand or prizes after the game was over.  Who would care?  ...Onto the next game.

 

Answered the later comment first because it was more important, but this isn't insignificant.  It makes me wonder if you understood the suggestion.

 

While I did reference the frustration that can be alleviated by letting your opponent know the exact situation, the main thing is creating an option so players can better understand the board state in end game.  If my opponent had bad luck and several key cards were Prized, I get to learn that.  If I only barely won, but you wouldn't know without seeing my opponent's hand, I can learn that.

 

Since you have no interest in it, though, no worries.  Even if folks like it and it was implemented by the Dev Team, as long as it matches how I suggested it, it would be purely optional.  You don't want folks seeing any of your virtual cards not already revealed in the match?  Then they aren't allowed to look.  If you don't care what your opponent had in hand, you aren't forced to look, either.

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RobRatt
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Otakutron said:

Everything I suggested required you "opt in", so that players like you wouldn't have to change at all.

 

<snip>

 

Since you have no interest in it, though, no worries.  Even if folks like it and it was implemented by the Dev Team, as long as it matches how I suggested it, it would be purely optional.  You don't want folks seeing any of your virtual cards not already revealed in the match?  Then they aren't allowed to look.  If you don't care what your opponent had in hand, you aren't forced to look, either.

 

As well, in a real-world event, I've never seen someone ask, "Hey, can I see your hand, prizes, and discard pile?" after the game is over.  That would be comical in a tournament.  Especially asking the players with Top Cut aspirations.

 

On the other hand, if my opponent -- after the game -- wanted to explain the "what if's" of why he lost (and could have won), that would depend entirely on the repertoire we shared and how friendly he was during the match.  More often than not, I'm going to politely tell him I need to take a leak.

 

With that said, does anyone think that Development is going to bring in a game feature that doesn't exist in real play?  Or at all, even if it did?

 

Edited by RobRatt

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Sakura150612
32 minutes ago, RobRatt said:

 

With that said, does anyone think that Development is going to bring in a game feature that doesn't exist in real play?  Or at all, even if it did?

I mean, most of the stuff that we ever suggest will never see the light of day. That's just how the cookie crumbles. It's still worth it to post suggestions and discuss them though. We haven't had any luck in some fronts (such as anything regarding the chat), but on others I'm pretty sure they've incorporated player feedback (such as the changes to the VS Ladder).

 

Although unlikely I don't think online-exclusive features are out of the question. I'd consider Legacy as one such feature, given that it's not an actual format that's played IRL (at least not as far as I know).

 

This isn't exactly what Otakutron was talking about, but I do think that a replay saving system would be pretty neat. If people don't want to show their hands or decks you could make it so that you can't see the opponent's view in the replay for people who have Deck Sharing deactivated. You'd only be able to see your opponent's stuff if they opt into sharing it, and you'll always be able to watch your own moves if you feel like reviewing a past game.

 

Probably never gonna happen considering there are simpler things that people want but haven't been done, but I'll drop the suggestion anyways :P

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Otakutron

As @RobRatt seems so confused about what I stated in my original post, I'm going to rephrase it now.  After all, he may not be alone in his confusion, and I myself am confused at the direction he has taken things, which suggests I was not as clear as I thought with the opening post.  I do realize I presented it from a particular perspective, which may be the problem.  Though, I am pretty sure at least part of it is how RobRatt and I just don't get along and approach things differently. ;)

 

The Pokémon TCG includes many intentional elements of built-in chance.  Besides the almost universal TCG factor of having a sufficiently randomized deck from which the player draws cards, there is also the Prize mechanic.  Typically, what applies to your opponent applies to you in the inverse e.g. if Player 1 has a key card Prized, that is to Player 1's detriment but player 2's benefit.

 

During the game, a competent player will gain at least a rough idea of what cards are in their Prizes and what is in their deck.  They usually won't know the order of the remaining cards in their deck, however.  Sometimes, even a skilled player will lose before they have the chance to deduce what is where, or card effects within the game can alter what they had already learned.

 

When playing with the physical cards, after the game is over you may simply look at your own Prize cards.  You may look at the contents (and order) of your remaining deck.  You can take your time to explore exactly what is in your discard pile, consider what is in your hand, and contemplate your side of the field.  Exactly how useful this information is can vary; for some it will only be confirming the obvious, but for others, seeing is believing... or at least, comprehension.  You cannot do this with the PTCGO, however; when the game is over, the game is over and your virtual cards are all cleared away immediately.

 

If your opponent is able and willing after the game concludes you may also study their side of the field, even look at what they had in their hand, their Prizes, and their deck.  With the physical TCG, your opponent's cards are stuck there while you look, and there is a risk you could steal or damage them.  Your opponent may also wish for the contents of their deck to remain secret, or at least, as secret as something you're using to play a game with others can remain.

 

So, the original proposal was to let players explore the end-state of the board if they wished.  You shouldn't need to ask yourself for permission to look at your own cards.  Rather than asking your opponent each and every time, it would simply be an option that by default would be set to "No".  For players with zero interest in this feature, that means they would at worst have to click one more "Done" button to advance to the next screen... and maybe not even that, if it could simply be added to the current Results screen, letting someone "go back" and look at these things.  I would like to amend that option, to include the full-on "Replay" feature mentioned by @Sakura150612

 

Something I shouldn't have focused on so heavily in the original post was really a fringe benefit.  I accept responsibility for messing that up.  Besides helping one learn more from an individual match, it can satisfy one's own curiosity and also provide a means of clarifying one's own position to an opponent who cares to look at such things.  Right now, one has no way of knowing if your opponent does or doesn't care about such things, so either you play out your final hand or you don't... and if you do, it can come across as rather obnoxious.

 

Something @RobRatt brought up which confused me is this talk of "events".  I don't think of the Reward Ladder in the PTCGO as being a Regional Championship.  Or even a League Cup.  To me, this is the online version of Pokémon League.  At League, you didn't have to show your opponent anything that wasn't directly part of gameplay, but you did have the option of showing them your hand after the game was over, either because they wanted to see, you wanted to show, or both.  With the PTCGO, even with a friend-versus-friend, non-ranked, no-rewards game, you can't do this... and I certainly remember doing that with my friends (and even just acquaintances) as we tried to learn the game and get better.

 

TL;DR Version:

 

Give players the chance to at least look at their own stuff after the game.  If both players are willing, let them look at each others' stuff and even watch a replay of the game, from both sides (as Sakura150612 suggested).  The game logs just aren't detailed enough to provide the desired data.

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Felidae_
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Otakutron said:

 

TL;DR Version:

 

Give players the chance to at least look at their own stuff after the game.  If both players are willing, let them look at each others' stuff and even watch a replay of the game, from both sides (as Sakura150612 suggested).  The game logs just aren't detailed enough to provide the desired data.

You usually know the important card in your prize cards by turn 1, so I really don't see a point of looking at them after the game ^^.

 

As for the rest of the suggestion: I personally don't want / need it, nor do I see the benefit.

However, if it remains optional and it helps some players, by all means go ahead :D.

Edited by Felidae_
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