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Please, make a format with no EX/GX Pokemon allowed

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Th3-S

Pokemon TCG Online needs more formats to be honest. There's a huge gap between Theme format and the two formats, Standard and Extended. I haven't played Legacy and I can already tell that there's a lot of problems: few players, cards are harder to get, and with strong and rare cards **** still)  harder to get now. The game just basically discourages investing in it. Legacy is really only accessible for old players and collectors. 

 

I've played Pokemon TCG for quite some time ago, not one of the best but informed with how metas works. I'm new in Pokemon TCG Online and now I'm at the point between playing Theme decks and making my own deck (going for Standard or Expanded) and I can say is that it is NO LONGER FUN. I'm forced to grind in theme deck which is so BORING because you always see the same deck over and over and over and over (god I hate Relentless Flame) and over and over again due to imbalance of theme decks which is unavoidable. I use weaker decks lately just to get the chance to play other decks so that it won't get stale but I still end up playing between the same "meta" theme decks or the awful Mental Might deck which I feel bad for beating (seriously just remove or update the darn thing). If you try Standard or Legacy now there will be a huge gap between better players and decks. Like, how low in the "rankings" do you need to lose until you can play with someone with equal footing? It's at this point that I think new players will be more willing to quit unless it's their goal to collect cards.

 

For the time being (hopefully), despite having the advantages of being digital, Pokemon TCG Online fails to make the most out of it and its huge collection of cards. Though it's understandable that they're trying to be careful not to compete internally to avoid losing profits, I'm still having a hard time to justify investing money on the game on its current state. 

 

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Mod_GuruLot
13 minutes ago, Th3-S said:

Pokemon TCG Online needs more formats to be honest. There's a huge gap between Theme format and the two formats, Standard and Extended. I haven't played Legacy and I can already tell that there's a lot of problems: few players, cards are harder to get, and with strong and rare cards **** still)  harder to get now. The game just basically discourages investing in it. Legacy is really only accessible for old players and collectors. 

 

I've played Pokemon TCG for quite some time ago, not one of the best but informed with how metas works. I'm new in Pokemon TCG Online and now I'm at the point between playing Theme decks and making my own deck (going for Standard or Expanded) and I can say is that it is NO LONGER FUN. I'm forced to grind in theme deck which is so BORING because you always see the same deck over and over and over and over (god I hate Relentless Flame) and over and over again due to imbalance of theme decks which is unavoidable. I use weaker decks lately just to get the chance to play other decks so that it won't get stale but I still end up playing between the same "meta" theme decks or the awful Mental Might deck which I feel bad for beating (seriously just remove or update the darn thing). If you try Standard or Legacy now there will be a huge gap between better players and decks. Like, how low in the "rankings" do you need to lose until you can play with someone with equal footing? It's at this point that I think new players will be more willing to quit unless it's their goal to collect cards.

 

For the time being (hopefully), despite having the advantages of being digital, Pokemon TCG Online fails to make the most out of it and its huge collection of cards. Though it's understandable that they're trying to be careful not to compete internally to avoid losing profits, I'm still having a hard time to justify investing money on the game on its current state. 

 

 

Hello @Th3-S

 

Thank you for this constructive feedback regarding your in-satisfaction with the existing TCGO formats.

 

Our team is always working on improving the experience of our players.

 

I'll forward your comments to our development team so they can be taken into consideration.

 

Hope this helps!

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Srlojohn

I honestly think that Legacy is the solution to this,  both currently, and even more so with a change.

 

I was like you, and burned out with playing against one-hit KO decks, (Which i define as being defeated with in 2-6 turns) so, I tried Legacy.  I lost my first fight immediately, but had more fun than I had in ages. the thing about Legacy, is that one-hit KO's are practically impossible. Of the few EX's available, none have that kind of firepower, the other option, Pokemon ~Legends cards, are almost as rare, and you need both halves, but add a nice alternative. The thing about Legacy is, is that it plays host to lots of inconsistent, slow decks that would never survive in expanded or standard, because it's they're so slow. It's refreshing to play against strategies that have been so thought out. I'm not syaing that Standard or Expanded decks don't have carefully thought out strategies, oh no. I'm just saying the strategies don't focus on getting the super-card out and then wiping the floor. It's a quick-draw, while legacy is more of a maneuvering match, can you get the right pokemon in the right place, at the right time.

 

As for the change, if they would add Diamond and Pearl cards, that would change things entirely. It could lead to very interesting match ups. (Shaymin lv.x/ Plasma Genesect-EX anyone?) It would give the format the one boost it needs to provide the variety that could change legacy for the better. it would add a large variety of powered-up cards, that could really mix things up. We never did get to see SP pokemon face Plasma pokemon, or EX face Lv.x as far as I recall. but that could be very interesting.

 

But that's just my 2 cents.

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Felidae_

D&P cards would be awesome, but then again Broken Time Space and Uxie are a bit too powerful.

 

If you look at the best decks in Legacy you'll find a lot that don't run any EX cards, or a “healthy” mix of EX and non-EX cards.

 

S Tier:

Empoleon,Dusknoir,Flygon – 0 EX cards

A Tier:

Weavile – 0 EX cards

Turbo Genesect – EX main attacker with non EX + EX support Pokemon

Team Plasma – non EX main attacker with EX support

RayEels – EX main attacker with non EX support

Sableye Garbodor – 0 EX cards

B Tier

Ninetales Amoonguss – 0 EX cards

Tool Drop – 0 EX cards

Dark Box – EX Main attacker and EX + non EX support

Turbo Blastoise / Turbo Feraligatr – EX main attacker with non EX support

Lugia Legend – non EX main attacker, support Pokemon depend on the version

Durant Mill – 0 EX cards

 

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Srlojohn
10 minutes ago, Felidae_ said:

D&P cards would be awesome, but then again Broken Time Space and Uxie are a bit too powerful.

 

If you look at the best decks in Legacy you'll find a lot that don't run any EX cards, or a “healthy” mix of EX and non-EX cards.

 

S Tier:

Empoleon,Dusknoir,Flygon – 0 EX cards

A Tier:

Weavile – 0 EX cards

Turbo Genesect – EX main attacker with non EX + EX support Pokemon

Team Plasma – non EX main attacker with EX support

RayEels – EX main attacker with non EX support

Sableye Garbodor – 0 EX cards

B Tier

Ninetales Amoonguss – 0 EX cards

Tool Drop – 0 EX cards

Dark Box – EX Main attacker and EX + non EX support

Turbo Blastoise / Turbo Feraligatr – EX main attacker with non EX support

Lugia Legend – non EX main attacker, support Pokemon depend on the version

Durant Mill – 0 EX cards

 

 

 

Exactly my point, the amount of EX use is severely limited, so if you don't want to deal with EX's all that much, go play Legacy.

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Otakutron
On 10/2/2019 at 11:31 AM, Th3-S said:

I'm forced to grind in theme deck which is so BORING because you always see the same deck over and over and over and over (god I hate Relentless Flame) and over and over again due to imbalance of theme decks which is unavoidable.

 

I haven't played the last few weeks... how much of this is just luck?

 

No, really.  Relentless Flame is heavily played, in part because "everyone knows" that it is the best Theme Format deck (at least, that is the advice we give new players).  Not surprise it is a major chunk of the metagame, but when I play, I actually don't encounter it as often as I'd expect given its lofty position in the metagame.  There are at least half a dozen Theme Decks for "competitive" Theme Format play, with about another half-dozen that are reasonable for a change of pace or to work on a challenge.

 

So... is it possible you're having a run of bad luck when it comes to matchups, and just keep getting stuck with Relentless Flame matchups?  I've been busy, so I haven't been playing as much for the past month, but when I play I usually do most of my grinding in the Theme Format.  It is completely possible a level of false diversity occurred just because folks were still trying out the two latest decks.

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SandaledOtter
On 10/2/2019 at 12:31 PM, Th3-S said:

Pokemon TCG Online needs more formats to be honest. There's a huge gap between Theme format and the two formats, Standard and Extended. I haven't played Legacy and I can already tell that there's a lot of problems: few players, cards are harder to get, and with strong and rare cards **** still)  harder to get now. The game just basically discourages investing in it. Legacy is really only accessible for old players and collectors.

 

PTCGO needs more work on all the rest of the app before it can support more formats. If it isn't good enough to attract enough people, giving everyone their own room to play in won't make sense.

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Otakutron
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, SandaledOtter said:

 

PTCGO needs more work on all the rest of the app before it can support more formats. If it isn't good enough to attract enough people, giving everyone their own room to play in won't make sense.

 

Yup. After that, then the Dev Team might have some wiggle room with respect to Formats, but even then, what can and cannot easily be done with the actual PTCGO program matters as well, in addition to what might further improve the experience for others.  Heh, it may also be difficult as some of us are really partial to "our" ideas... and since these ideas are in "competition", it can make it harder to focus folks around just one really good option.

Edited by Otakutron

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Th3-S
10 hours ago, SandaledOtter said:

 

PTCGO needs more work on all the rest of the app before it can support more formats. If it isn't good enough to attract enough people, giving everyone their own room to play in won't make sense.

 

True. What I'm trying to say is that there's not enough incentives to keep playing as things can get stale and you're forced in a very linear experience. It's just that there is a large gap between Theme decks and both Standard and Expanded that can potentially turn off new players. I know I would if I'm not too keen in collecting and hoping that improvements would come soon. Just one of my observations as a guy that went back to Pokemon TCG and disappointed on the digital version.

 

11 hours ago, Otakutron said:

No, really.  Relentless Flame is heavily played, in part because "everyone knows" that it is the best Theme Format deck (at least, that is the advice we give new players).  Not surprise it is a major chunk of the metagame, but when I play, I actually don't encounter it as often as I'd expect given its lofty position in the metagame.  There are at least half a dozen Theme Decks for "competitive" Theme Format play, with about another half-dozen that are reasonable for a change of pace or to work on a challenge.

 

It's just personal hate for Relentless Flame really hehe. Relentless Flame is still reliant on luck but it is one, if not the most, annoying deck in theme deck. I'm more of a Blazing Inferno user where you at least need to plan your moves and seeing a deck where you almost insta-win just by placing a card (Charizard) is kinda infuriating. Losing to a Mental Might deck is more manageable for me lol.

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Otakutron
6 hours ago, Th3-S said:

It's just personal hate for Relentless Flame really hehe. Relentless Flame is still reliant on luck but it is one, if not the most, annoying deck in theme deck. I'm more of a Blazing Inferno user where you at least need to plan your moves and seeing a deck where you almost insta-win just by placing a card (Charizard) is kinda infuriating. Losing to a Mental Might deck is more manageable for me lol.

 

Thanks for clarifying. XD I favor Blazing Volcano for my fire needs as well.  Forgive me if I sound like a broken record, but did you notice the comment about 30-Card?

 

It does not solve the problem of spreading the user base too thin, and I don't know how hard it actually would be to add to the existing PTCGO.  It could also backfire, as we don't know exactly how halving deck-size will affect the metagame, but odds seem good it would be distinct enough from the main game to be enjoyable, if only because a lot of powerful cards would drop to two-per-deck instead of three or four.  It just seems like a natural stepping stone for players on their way to Standard.

 

30-Card also has the benefit of not being something truly new; there were official rules for 30-card as recently as 2017, IIRC.  It wasn't something you could use for a Regional Championship or the like, but it was recognized for use in official Side Events.

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Th3-S
15 hours ago, Otakutron said:

It does not solve the problem of spreading the user base too thin, and I don't know how hard it actually would be to add to the existing PTCGO.  It could also backfire, as we don't know exactly how halving deck-size will affect the metagame, but odds seem good it would be distinct enough from the main game to be enjoyable, if only because a lot of powerful cards would drop to two-per-deck instead of three or four.  It just seems like a natural stepping stone for players on their way to Standard.

 

I haven't really tried a half deck but it does sound interesting if implemented. One of the early problems that I perceive with new players is their lack of cards in terms of reliable numbers. A well functioning 60-card deck would require the maximum of 4 or 3 duplicate cards with some basically unusable if you don't hit that number. Meta is very interesting but I think the Japanese scene would already have the experience as it seems to be popular there. In terms of rewards I'm just not sure how it will be implemented to maintain the optimal player count for each game format though a huge restructuring (and other parts of the game) is needed if so.

 

This might be going far from the topic but I was wondering about the Double Battle format. It kinda sucks that it never got far or improved and feels like a format that would have added more unpredictability, variation and decision making to the game. It doesn't have to be two vs two players but just two Pokemon as an active just like in the main videogames (its so good that its an official tournament staple).

 

Also in discussion of new formats, why not just implement new and experimental formats to Friend vs Friend matches where it doesn't affect the main game to at least have some way to gather data and feedback?

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Srlojohn
7 hours ago, Th3-S said:

I haven't really tried a half deck

 

I have, and it's a lot of fun. When I got my first theme deck, my sister and I both played this format ALOT. (though we didn't know it had a name or anything.) Also keep in mind, this was a crappy little theme deck, where you could occasionally end up with truly useless cards. It would probably be even better with a constructed deck.

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Otakutron
8 hours ago, Th3-S said:

This might be going far from the topic but I was wondering about the Double Battle format. It kinda sucks that it never got far or improved and feels like a format that would have added more unpredictability, variation and decision making to the game. It doesn't have to be two vs two players but just two Pokemon as an active just like in the main videogames (its so good that its an official tournament staple).

 

The "Play! Pokémon Pokémon Trading Card Game Tournament Rules and Formats" .pdf had rules for

  • 2-On-2
  • 30-Card
  • Team Battle

For their "unsanctioned fun formats" as recently as the November of 2017 update.  You can find the current version of this document - which lacks these rules - and a bunch of other useful official stuff here.  Always good to make sure you've got the latest instruction booklet, Ban List, etc.

 

I'd love Team Battle to make a comeback; I played that way back when it was first introduced under WotC, and the rules were later revised under Nintendo/TPCi... but I suspect that would be really hard to code.  Even 2-on-2 and... well, I played that while it was new as well; you don't get two attacks so it is kind of lame unless you've got potent "While Active" Abilities, in which case it then becomes a little too good. XP  I haven't played either in about 15 years though, so who knows if it holds true now.

 

Anyway, you bring up a fantastic point: anything like this should debut just as an option for the non-ladder modes.  If it catches on there, then maybe it could replace or join what we already have, but that's a good way to test it.  Something from past discussions on this matter is keeping Theme, Standard, and Expanded (for Ladder and Events) year round but having a variable fourth Format.  A month of Legacy, a Month of 30-Card, etc.  Or two months.  Or three months. Etc.  Whatever makes it worthwhile.

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Raticate555
Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2019 at 3:04 AM, Otakutron said:

This thread reminded me of something else that has been proposed, and which might be a better solution for those that want a format without Pokémon-EX/GX for new players, budget players, or bored players:

 

30-Card

 

Though you won't find it there anymore, the official Pokémon TCG Rules & Formats document used to include rules for a few "fun" Formats that were not available for sanctioned main events but were permissible for their side events (side events not affecting rankings).  30-Card was one of these.  The difference between this and the "normal" version of Standard or Expanded is

  • 30-Card decks instead of 60 (duh)
  • 2-Copy Rule instead of 4-Copy Rule
  • 3 Prizes instead of 6 Prizes

Decks simply cannot contain as many cards, and thus should be easier to build, barring bizarre metagame induced "hiccups".  A new player that doesn't yet have four [insert staple] will only need two of it, assuming it is still a staple here.  With only three Prize cards, you simply lose if your Tag Team Pokémon is KO'd (barring certain combos).

This would be a ton of fun with Blacephalon GX and Beast Ring!

Edited by Raticate555
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Th3-S
8 hours ago, Raticate555 said:

This would be a ton of fun with Blacephalon GX and Beast Ring

 

I think that might be a bit too broken in that kind of format. Some cards would be unusable or just banned in a Half Deck format to make things a bit more stable but I don't have any info for the Half Deck scene.

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Otakutron
18 hours ago, Raticate555 said:

This would be a ton of fun with Blacephalon GX and Beast Ring!

 

9 hours ago, Th3-S said:

 

I think that might be a bit too broken in that kind of format. Some cards would be unusable or just banned in a Half Deck format to make things a bit more stable but I don't have any info for the Half Deck scene.

 

Therein lies the rub.  Raticate555 brings up an excellent point; there are some Prize-dependent effects that become ridiculous.  Granted, some also become useless.  The kicker is I don't know if the Dev Team could get permission to create - and then spare the resources to manage - their own Banned List for such a Format.

 

At the same time, I'm not sure about the Theorymon.  Normally, your 60 card deck drops to a 46 card deck, as you need to set aside 6 Prize cards, take your opening hand of 7 cards, and then you'll draw 1 card at the start of your turn.  In 30-card, you you only need to put out 3 Prize cards but you still have an opening hand of seven cards, plus your standard draw for the turn, leaving you with just a 19 card deck!

 

Yes, your deck doesn't have to last as long because you only need to take 3 Prizes, but let that sink in.  Barring other effects...

  • You get one use of Custom Catcher, max.
  • A TAG TEAM Pokémon being KO'd instantly wins the game.
  • Any other Pokémon-GX being KO'd instantly drops you to your last Prize.
  • Effects that require a player has four (or more) players can't be used.
  • Effects that require a player have three Prizes can be used immediately...
  • ...but also can't be used if you take even one more Prize.
  • Effects that require one or two Prizes have a very small activation window.

So yeah, while Ultra Beasts are still very tempting, I'm not so sure about Pokémon-GX, especially TAG TEAMs.  Rip through your deck for an explosive opening - Blacephalon-GX or anything else - and Magcargo-GX may become a staple.  I mean, when we're starting with an effective 19 card deck, you just try to keep a Slugma and/or Ditto {*} in play until your opponent hits 5 or fewer cards remaining, then "Burning Magma-GX" sets you up to win as soon as your opponent goes (and then fails) to draw on the next turn.

 

Please do not take this as a full rebuttal.  Blacephalon-GX may still be utterly broken.  I really don't know.  I'd love to find out, though. :)

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Srlojohn
1 hour ago, Otakutron said:

You get one use of Custom Catcher, max.

Agreed.

 

1 hour ago, Otakutron said:
  • A TAG TEAM Pokémon being KO'd instantly wins the game.
  • Any other Pokémon-GX being KO'd instantly drops you to your last Prize. 

Which would result in the goal of this topic. An almost EX/GX free environment, because it's too risky to use them.

 

1 hour ago, Otakutron said:
  • Effects that require a player has four (or more) players can't be used.
  • Effects that require a player have three Prizes can be used immediately...
  • ...but also can't be used if you take even one more Prize.
  • Effects that require one or two Prizes have a very small activation window.

 

Which means you have to be much more strategic about it. Also, if it does result in a EX/GX free environment as I mentioned above, that window would be extended because in general KO's would be less frequent.

 

1 hour ago, Otakutron said:

opening hand of seven cards

 

When my sister and I did this, we cut the starting hand in half, so that you only started with 4 cards, giving more wriggle room, and extending the game time.

 

All in all, fair points, that would require some tweaking to answer well. I think that in the end we would end up with a very strategic format, where ever move counts, because you have a very short time to get things prepared, and to strike at your opponent. You would have to think long and hard about each card you play, as a mistake could mean the end of a game for you.

 

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Otakutron

As most of the post was just us agreeing, I'm not going to quote everything Srlojohn said.  I just wanted to clear up something:

 

22 hours ago, Srlojohn said:

When my sister and I did this, we cut the starting hand in half, so that you only started with 4 cards, giving more wriggle room, and extending the game time.

 

As a reminder, seven is from the "official" rules for this fun format.  If you'd like a copy of them, let me know and I'll share them via a Private Message.  Sadly, as stated earlier, the rules for 2-On-2, 30-Card, and Team Battle are no longer part of the official .pdf that used to contain them.

 

Of course, nothing says that a hypothetical 30-Card Format would have to follow those rules exactly, though doing so is probably the best starting point.  Should you and your sister try it out anymore, let me know how a five-card opening hand fares; just my gut feeling about what would work best. ;)

 

30-Card really does look like a possibly solution to players becoming frustrated by how far away they are from having enough hard-to-get cards (because it is not truly about Pokémon-EX/GX) to build the competitive decks they wish to play.  On the other hand, those who just want non-competitive decks to become competitive?  They have about as much hope with either approach, which isn't much. XP

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Srlojohn
2 hours ago, Otakutron said:

hould you and your sister try it out anymore, let me know how a five-card opening hand fares; just my gut feeling about what would work best. ;)

Why not. We probably will, if only fort the novelty of it. My sister and i are both lacking in energy, so half decks make things a lot easier. This isn't a problem online, but a definite problem in the real world.

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