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SirCharles91

Will this deck ever be competitive against tier 1 deck?

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SirCharles91

****** Elenco carte del mazzo del Gioco di Carte Collezionabili Pokémon ******

 

 

Pokémon - 15

 

* 1 Poipole LOT 107
* 1 Poipole FLI 55
* 2 Naganadel LOT 108
* 4 Vulpix di Alola GRI 21
* 2 Wooper DRM 25
* 1 Ninetales di Alola BUS 28
* 2 Ninetales di Alola-GX GRI 22
* 2 Quagsire DRM 26

 

 

Training cards - 34

 

* 3 Acqua Patch GRI 119
* 1 Master Ball PLB 94
* 1 Brooket Hill GRI 120
* 1 Viridian Forest TEU 156
* 2 Professor's mail XY 123
* 2 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 2 Chioce band GRI 121
* 2 Lylia SUM 122
* 1 Brigette BKT 134
* 1 Builder of Apricorn CES 124
* 4 Cynthia UPR 119
* 1 Field blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzman BUS 115
* 3 Elisir Max BKP 102
* 2 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 3 Sub Ball PRC 125
* 3 Vs Seeker PHF 109

 

 

Energies - 11

* 11 Energia Acqua  3

Totale carte - 60

 

The fact is: i loose a lot of games i play (i've only won only 60% of the games). Will this deck, with some changes maybe, will ever be competitive against the most powerful decks? If you don't use Archie's Blastoise list, quagsire + naganadel + alolan vulpix is crucial to play a fast game and try to compete against strong decks like Reshiram & Charizard, Darkrai, ecc. 

If the answer is no: what's the point of this game? Play with the same 4-5 best current lists, or being smashed out without any hope?

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SKBellmore

I think if you want this deck to be competitive, you have to move your focus away from Ninetales. I would start off smaller, using stuff like TEU Lapras, LOT Onix, and then eventually Magikarp & Wailord GX, and use Archie’s Ace In The Hole to use stuff like Kingdra GX. 

 

You have a solid trainer line. Increase your counts of Brigette so you have a greater chance of getting it T1. Also I would recommend Battle Compressor as it can put you Energy in the discard to retrieve with Naganadel. It can also find Supporters if you have VS Seeker in hand.

 

Good luck with your deck!

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MasterJediAdam

(Apart for winning) how consistent is your engine? I immediately notice that you only have 6 draw supporters. While you do have 3 VS Seekers, that feels low. Also, if your principle attacker is Alolan Ninetales GX, having only 2 seems too few. Having the non-Gx version seems good, but it is so easy to play around with Guzma in expanded format forever. Naganadel is good for pulling energy, but is not a phenomenal attacker. 

 

At at a minimum, I would recommend maximizing your principle attacker, and if you want to use the non Gx, then include a Ditto <>. Since you playing expanded, Octillery is a great way to get more cards. I would also look at the mix of draw supporters. 

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Sniperi96
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, SirCharles91 said:

If the answer is no: what's the point of this game? Play with the same 4-5 best current lists, or being smashed out without any hope?

META itself stands for most effective tactics available. Tier 1 decks are tier one because they are the most optimized and well-rounded decks, not that there would be anything specifically saying that deck x is tier 1 and deck y is tier 2.

That being said there is always room for innovation. And quite rarely are the lists same even with tier one decks, for instance compare lists between thunderbuddies and turbopikarom. Both decks use pikarom but another has taken focus on bringing pikarom up asap while other uses more flexible strategy switching between using zapdos, pikarom and jolteon-gx. Also players often tend to tech cards further dividing lists from each other. I think ( and you may very well disagree) the best way to innovate is take one tier 1 and start experimenting with it: What's making the deck so good, what are the key components for success, can these components be transfered to another deck and is there room for innovation in this tier one deck. For instance zoroark variants have transformed over time drastically while still using the strenght of soroark:having really consistent draw engine which also can attack. Zoroark being good draw engine itself doesn't make specific decklist, it's doorway for strategies taking advantage of it's strenght. In same way I wouldn't say you should necessarily lock yourself out from idea of testing for instance Archie. Just because there are certain lists doesn't say you can't make your own using the same idea, aka abusing archie  and deluge to quickly load an attacker.

Edited by Sniperi96
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SirCharles91
14 ore fa, SKBellmore ha scritto:

I think if you want this deck to be competitive, you have to move your focus away from Ninetales. I would start off smaller, using stuff like TEU Lapras, LOT Onix, and then eventually Magikarp & Wailord GX, and use Archie’s Ace In The Hole to use stuff like Kingdra GX. 

 

You have a solid trainer line. Increase your counts of Brigette so you have a greater chance of getting it T1. Also I would recommend Battle Compressor as it can put you Energy in the discard to retrieve with Naganadel. It can also find Supporters if you have VS Seeker in hand.

 

Good luck with your deck!

 

14 ore fa, MasterJediAdam ha scritto:

(Apart for winning) how consistent is your engine? I immediately notice that you only have 6 draw supporters. While you do have 3 VS Seekers, that feels low. Also, if your principle attacker is Alolan Ninetales GX, having only 2 seems too few. Having the non-Gx version seems good, but it is so easy to play around with Guzma in expanded format forever. Naganadel is good for pulling energy, but is not a phenomenal attacker. 

 

At at a minimum, I would recommend maximizing your principle attacker, and if you want to use the non Gx, then include a Ditto <>. Since you playing expanded, Octillery is a great way to get more cards. I would also look at the mix of draw supporters. 

 

Thanks for your help! I made some changes: 1) added Tapu Lele Gx; 2) added one Bridgette; 3) removed baby Alolan for another GX (but in some occasions, baby one would be crucial); 4) Added one more Lylia for draw consistency. I removed cards which are not crucial: choice band, builder of apricorn.

 

This is the deck now, do you think is better and do you have any other advice?

 

 

## Pokémon - 16

 

* 1 Poipole LOT 107
* 1 Poipole FLI 55

* 2 Naganadel LOT 108
* 1 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
* 4 Vulpix di Alola GRI 21

* 3 Ninetales di Alola-GX GRI 132
* 2 Wooper DRM 25
* 2 Quagsire DRM 26

 

 

## Trainers - 33

 

* 3 Acqua patch GRI 119
* 1 Master Ball PLB 94
* 1 Brooklet Hill GRI 120
* 1 Viridian Forest TEU 156
* 2 Professor's letter XY 123
* 2 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 2 Bridgette BKT 134
* 4 Chyntia UPR 119
* 1 Field Blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzman BUS 115
* 3 Elisir Max BKP 102
* 2 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 3 Lylia UPR 125
* 3 Sub Ball PRC 125
* 3 Vs Seeker PHF 109

 

## Energies - 11

 

* 11 Energia Acqua  3

 

 

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SKBellmore
2 hours ago, SirCharles91 said:

 

 

Thanks for your help! I made some changes: 1) added Tapu Lele Gx; 2) added one Bridgette; 3) removed baby Alolan for another GX (but in some occasions, baby one would be crucial); 4) Added one more Lylia for draw consistency. I removed cards which are not crucial: choice band, builder of apricorn.

 

This is the deck now, do you think is better and do you have any other advice?

 

 

## Pokémon - 16

 

* 1 Poipole LOT 107
* 1 Poipole FLI 55

* 2 Naganadel LOT 108
* 1 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
* 4 Vulpix di Alola GRI 21

* 3 Ninetales di Alola-GX GRI 132
* 2 Wooper DRM 25
* 2 Quagsire DRM 26

 

 

## Trainers - 33

 

* 3 Acqua patch GRI 119
* 1 Master Ball PLB 94
* 1 Brooklet Hill GRI 120
* 1 Viridian Forest TEU 156
* 2 Professor's letter XY 123
* 2 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 2 Bridgette BKT 134
* 4 Chyntia UPR 119
* 1 Field Blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzman BUS 115
* 3 Elisir Max BKP 102
* 2 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 3 Lylia UPR 125
* 3 Sub Ball PRC 125
* 3 Vs Seeker PHF 109

 

## Energies - 11

 

* 11 Energia Acqua  3

 

 

 

Looking better so far. Again, maybe add a single copy of LOT Onix or TEU Lapras, but this is good  if Ninetales is your one and only focus.

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Felidae_

The three main problems of your deck:

 

  1. Expanded

 

There is no reason for your deck to be in Expanded. Get rid of those VS Seekers and play Standard.

Once the rotation happens you can focus on Expanded (as you are going to lose some key cards for your strategy), but until then you'll have a better time in the Standard format.

 

  1. A weak attacker

 

Unfortunately, Ninetales GX isn't the best attacker. No matter what you change within your deck, if you want to rely on this Pokemon you'll always be in a disadvantageous position.

If you want to focus on the card (maybe because you like the Pokemon, idk) I'd probably favour the non-GX version and only run a single copy of the GX card for a surprise snipe to the bench.

 

  1. A suboptimal trainer setup

 

In case you want to stick to Expanded, despite point 1), you need to play better cards. Expanded gives you access to a bunch of insanely strong supporters and the ability to use them over and over, thanks to VS Seeker. N, Colress, Faba, Juniper, just to name a few.

In addition, you should also realize that you are not the aggressor in most match-ups, as Ninetales is going to have a hard time going for a OHKO (no matter if its the normal or GX version). Thus, you need some tools to disrupt your opponent, in order to make up for the tempo lose of the second attack.

 

However, as mentioned earlier, for the time being I'd switch to Standard entirely, as I see no chance for this build in Expanded, once you reach a point where you play mostly against competent players with tier 1 meta decks.

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SirCharles91
1 ora fa, SKBellmore ha scritto:

 

Looking better so far. Again, maybe add a single copy of LOT Onix or TEU Lapras, but this is good  if Ninetales is your one and only focus.

 

I don't get the point in adding Onix: is for countering Zoroark?

The thing about Ninetales is that Alolan Vulpix is simply crucial for the consistency: without him i shouldn't have my bench with Quagsire and Naganadel ready on turn 2, and i'd have no chances against a lor of decks. 

 

Do you think i should add a Ditto <>? And if "yes", replacing which card?

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SKBellmore
Just now, SirCharles91 said:

 

I don't get the point in adding Onix: is for countering Zoroark?

The thing about Ninetales is that Alolan Vulpix is simply crucial for the consistency: without him i shouldn't have my bench with Quagsire and Naganadel ready on turn 2, and i'd have no chances against a lor of decks. 

 

Do you think i should add a Ditto <>? And if "yes", replacing which card?

Onix is for Zoroark and PikaRom and is used in most Quagsire/Naganadel based decks.

 

You can keep Alolan Vulpix in the deck. People play LOT Larvitar without Pupitar and Tyranitar.

 

I think a Ditto would be useful in your deck.

 

@Felidae_ gave you some awesome advice, so I suggest go checking it out and implementing it.

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SirCharles91
Posted (edited)
22 minuti fa, Felidae_ ha scritto:

The three main problems of your deck:

 

  1. Expanded

 

There is no reason for your deck to be in Expanded. Get rid of those VS Seekers and play Standard.

Once the rotation happens you can focus on Expanded (as you are going to lose some key cards for your strategy), but until then you'll have a better time in the Standard format.

 

  1. A weak attacker

 

Unfortunately, Ninetales GX isn't the best attacker. No matter what you change within your deck, if you want to rely on this Pokemon you'll always be in a disadvantageous position.

If you want to focus on the card (maybe because you like the Pokemon, idk) I'd probably favour the non-GX version and only run a single copy of the GX card for a surprise snipe to the bench.

 

  1. A suboptimal trainer setup

 

In case you want to stick to Expanded, despite point 1), you need to play better cards. Expanded gives you access to a bunch of insanely strong supporters and the ability to use them over and over, thanks to VS Seeker. N, Colress, Faba, Juniper, just to name a few.

In addition, you should also realize that you are not the aggressor in most match-ups, as Ninetales is going to have a hard time going for a OHKO (no matter if its the normal or GX version). Thus, you need some tools to disrupt your opponent, in order to make up for the tempo lose of the second attack.

 

However, as mentioned earlier, for the time being I'd switch to Standard entirely, as I see no chance for this build in Expanded, once you reach a point where you play mostly against competent players with tier 1 meta decks.

 

Thanks for the opinions. The reasons i play in expanded are: 1) Dive balls: a water deck simply needs them, no other things to say. 2) Elisir max is too important, due to the fact water types have no great energy acceleration and elisir max simply gives that little bit you need.

Anyway, i've built a version for standard, but the results are not very different from the expanded version. I think you're right: Alolan Ninetales is simply not so good, comparasing with other main attackers. The fact is that water type has not those so great main attackers: Wailord & Magikarp GX is difficult to set up, because for having Quagsire and Naganadel ready in bench at turn 2 you need Alolan Vulpix and most of the decks can hit really hard even on turn 2 or 3, and W&M is 3 prices. 
If i'm missing something, please don't esitate to tell me

Edited by SirCharles91

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SirCharles91
7 minuti fa, SKBellmore ha scritto:

Onix is for Zoroark and PikaRom and is used in most Quagsire/Naganadel based decks.

 

You can keep Alolan Vulpix in the deck. People play LOT Larvitar without Pupitar and Tyranitar.

 

I think a Ditto would be useful in your deck.

 

@Felidae_ gave you some awesome advice, so I suggest go checking it out and implementing it.

I trust you, and the next question is: which cards do i take out for Ditto and Onix?

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WingsofFire1014

Lose a Professor's Letter.

 

Lose an Aqua Patch, because as far as I can see, Ultra Balls are the only way that you are going to get them into your discard pile. so it is not super necessary to run 3 copies.

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SKBellmore
24 minutes ago, SirCharles91 said:

I trust you, and the next question is: which cards do i take out for Ditto and Onix?

Thanks! I think @WingsofFire1014 has the answers your asking me for.

 

9 minutes ago, WingsofFire1014 said:

 as far as I can see, Ultra Balls are the only way that you are going to get them into your discard pile. so it is not super necessary to run 3 copies.

Ninetales GX’s main attack discards 2 energy.

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SirCharles91
Posted (edited)
12 minuti fa, SKBellmore ha scritto:

Thanks! I think @WingsofFire1014 has the answers your asking me for.

 

Ninetales GX’s main attack discards 2 energy.

 

Playing with this deck i'v realized that professor's letter is crucial in many situations! Acqua patch too, if i could i'd run 4 copies! It's simply a problem to put in Onix and Ditto, i can try in standard format, or replacing other cards but i don't know which of them :(

Edited by SirCharles91

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WingsofFire1014

How about you remove the Bridgette's?! You have Brooklet Hill and other ways to get your Pokemon. 

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SirCharles91
Posted (edited)
11 ore fa, Felidae_ ha scritto:

The three main problems of your deck:

 

  1. Expanded

 

There is no reason for your deck to be in Expanded. Get rid of those VS Seekers and play Standard.

Once the rotation happens you can focus on Expanded (as you are going to lose some key cards for your strategy), but until then you'll have a better time in the Standard format.

 

  1. A weak attacker

 

Unfortunately, Ninetales GX isn't the best attacker. No matter what you change within your deck, if you want to rely on this Pokemon you'll always be in a disadvantageous position.

If you want to focus on the card (maybe because you like the Pokemon, idk) I'd probably favour the non-GX version and only run a single copy of the GX card for a surprise snipe to the bench.

 

  1. A suboptimal trainer setup

 

In case you want to stick to Expanded, despite point 1), you need to play better cards. Expanded gives you access to a bunch of insanely strong supporters and the ability to use them over and over, thanks to VS Seeker. N, Colress, Faba, Juniper, just to name a few.

In addition, you should also realize that you are not the aggressor in most match-ups, as Ninetales is going to have a hard time going for a OHKO (no matter if its the normal or GX version). Thus, you need some tools to disrupt your opponent, in order to make up for the tempo lose of the second attack.

 

However, as mentioned earlier, for the time being I'd switch to Standard entirely, as I see no chance for this build in Expanded, once you reach a point where you play mostly against competent players with tier 1 meta decks.

 

Following your advice, i created this standard version of the deck. What do you think about? I'm thinking about adding a baby alolan ninetales and taking out a choice band, giving the fact that in many situations it would be crucial

 

 

##Pokémon - 18

 

* 1 Ditto {*} LOT 154
* 1 Onix LOT 109
* 1 Poipole FLI 55
* 2 Naganadel LOT 108
* 1 Volcanion {*} FLI 31
* 4 Vulpix di Alola GRI 21

* 3 Ninetales di Alola-GX GRI 132
* 2 Wooper DRM 25

* 2 Quagsire DRM 26

* 1 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60

 

 

##Carte Allenatore - 31

 

* 4 Acqua patch GRI 119
* 2 Lady FLI 109
* 1 Brooklet Hill GRI 120
* 1 Viridian forest TEU 156
* 2 Rescue stretcher GRI 130
* 4 Ultra Ball DEX 102
* 4 Minor Ball SUM 123
* 1 Builder of Apricorn CES 124
* 4 Cynthia UPR 119
* 1 Field blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzman BUS 115
* 1 Choice band GRI 121
* 4 Lylia UPR 125

 

##Energia - 11

* 11 Energia Acqua  3

 

Totale carte - 60

 

Edited by SirCharles91

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SirCharles91
Posted (edited)
18 ore fa, Felidae_ ha scritto:

The three main problems of your deck:

 

  1. Expanded

 

There is no reason for your deck to be in Expanded. Get rid of those VS Seekers and play Standard.

Once the rotation happens you can focus on Expanded (as you are going to lose some key cards for your strategy), but until then you'll have a better time in the Standard format.

 

  1. A weak attacker

 

Unfortunately, Ninetales GX isn't the best ************ matter what you change within your deck, if you want to rely on this Pokemon you'll always be in a disadvantageous position.

If you want to focus on the card (maybe because you like the Pokemon, idk) I'd probably favour the non-GX version and only run a single copy of the GX card for a surprise snipe to the bench.

 

  1. A suboptimal trainer setup

 

In case you want to stick to Expanded, despite point 1), you need to play better cards. Expanded gives you access to a bunch of insanely strong supporters and the ability to use them over and over, thanks to VS Seeker. N, Colress, Faba, Juniper, just to name ****** **

**

***** ************************************************************************************** Ninetales is going to have a hard time going for a OHKO (no matter if its the normal or GX version). ****************************************************** order to make up for the tempo lose of the second attack.

 

*********** mentioned earlier, for the time being I'd switch to Standard ************ I see no chance for this build in Expanded, once you reach a point where you play mostly against competent players with tier 1 meta decks.

 

Following your advice, i created this standard version of the deck. What do you think about? 

 

 

##Pokémon - 18

 

* 1 Ditto {*} LOT 154
* 1 Onix LOT 109
* 1 Poipole FLI 55
* 2 Naganadel LOT 108
* 1 Volcanion {*} FLI 31
* 4 Vulpix di Alola GRI 21

* 3 Ninetales di Alola-GX GRI 132
* 2 Wooper DRM 25

* 2 Quagsire DRM 26

* 1 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60

 

 

##Carte Allenatore - 31

 

* 4 Acqua patch GRI 119
* 2 Lady FLI 109
* 1 Brooklet Hill GRI 120
* 1 Viridian forest TEU 156
* 2 Rescue stretcher GRI 130
* 4 Ultra Ball DEX 102
* 4 Minor Ball SUM 123
* 1 Builder of Apricorn CES 124
* 4 Cynthia UPR 119
* 1 Field blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzman BUS 115
* 1 Choice band GRI 121
* 4 Lylia UPR 125

 

##Energia - 11

* 11 Energia Acqua  3

 

Totale carte - 60

 

 

Edited by SirCharles91

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SirCharles91

Thanks to everyone for the help! Today with this deck i literally kicked ***** and won 8 games in a row in standard mode!

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SKBellmore
4 hours ago, SirCharles91 said:

Thanks to everyone for the help! Today with this deck i literally kicked ***** and won 8 games in a row in standard mode!

Nice! I hope I speak on behalf of everyone when I say I’m glad I was of help.

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