Public Opinion on First Turn decks

[Cisqoe]

Last time it was 'Guzma', now i'm looking for what the community think about decks that are designed to win before the other player has had a chance to draw a card, on their first turn (fast raid).. or even second (night march).

 

For me, I like seeing the combination and string of cards that come together to make such a thing possible, my only issue is that the people using these cards are just ripping it from a guide somewhere instead of actually coming up with it themselves. To the first person who created the deck it is a big well done, but to the copycats... yikes.

 

The deck style is an interesting concept but I still feel like any deck being able to reach 120+ damage in the first turn of the game is a bit rough.. at that point its no longer about the player's skill or the fun of the match its just mechanically following a recipe of cards laid out by others before you.

 

Before any one comes in trying to roast me, let it be known I can beat night march (as much as I hate it the deck) and fast raid but as anyone knows.. if you don't have good initial draw luck your games basically over, particularly when there's a 190 damage fast raid coming your way first turn like what happened to me the other day hahaha 

 

So what do you all think in general? Don't need to address my points and feel free to disagree im just sparking conversation. Newcomers and especially veteran player opinions would be well appreciated

 

And as a side question - Should a fast raid win against a player before that player has drawn a card effect their win streak online?

[XK920XK]

Sounds like you are bitter about people who netdeck. You brought up the subject multiple times. Youre title should just say "Public opinion on net decks"

 

Back to your other subject, donk decks are just gimmicks, there is a reason why no player has succeeded or even come close to in recent memory with a donk deck at a real event.

 

Night march is a deck that has survived for many years, its great for the game, especially the online game. It a deck thats affordable for new players to go against some of these new behemoth EX GX and soon Tag Team cards.

 

Donk decks, Stalls, Mills are great for the game, gives the game a new set of challenge away from the conventional load energy and attack. 

 

Fast raid is just like any other turn one deck, a win is a win. Wouldnt be fair to single out a deck.

[Sakura150612]

I'll stand by my position that any strategy that leads you to victory is a valid one. This doesn't mean I have fun playing against every single deck, but even if I don't enjoy watching my opponent play Solitary, it still a valid strategy. In that sense, I agree with XK9. 

 

That said, I really don't like donk decks after all xd It's not unfair, but it's completely non-interactive. If your opponent pulls the donk, you lose before you can do anything. If they don't get the donk, they auto-lose because those decks are terrible if they can't FTK you, so there's not much for you to do anyway if you survive the donk. Tbh, I don't even know if it's efficient to play donk decks on the ladder anymore. To me at least, it seems more profitable to play a good, consistent deck that can get you some good winstreaks going. Playing donk decks is probably even less than a 50/50, since you have to go first (most people won't make you go first when they win the coin flip), and even then, if they bench some pokemon you can't don't either. It's true all your games will be fast, but the way I see it, you're doomed to earn 10 points at a time, when you could otherwise be earning 30-40 points in a single game if you keep a winstreak going.

 

TL;DR, I dislike donk decks, but I don't think they're a problem. It's a legit strategy so it is what it is. 

 

About netdecking, I don't think that's a problem either. A while ago a guy came claiming that it's "negative player experience", but never came back to check on his own thread after he found no support. There really is nothing wrong with people taking another person's deck and trying it out. If they want to succeed at it they'll have to come up with their own variation anyway. Then there's also the fact that it helps new players that don't have any experience or knowledge to build an "original deck", so going with something well known and tested is a much better choice.

 

You're not really just "following a recipe" and riding it to victory either. Adapting to each individual situation and consistently winning against many different decks, including the ones that counter you, takes a lot of knowledge, experience and it also takes skill. If I insisted on discarding everything turn 1 on Night March to attack for 190 damage even against Trevenant, Toad and Night March mirror matches, I would lose just about all of those games. Being flexible with the exact composition of your deck and being able to adapt to the conditions of each game is harder than repeating the exact same recipe every time. Knowing the weaknesses of your own deck, teching out your deck correctly, choosing a proportion of cards that will carry you through as many different situations as possible without bricking your deck, all of those are more complex and "copy the deck --> spam it and win".

 

Now, I can't give you a very objective opinion on Night March since that's literally the only deck I play, but I don't think you're right on calling it a "turn 1" deck. Turn 1 is just the big setup, but you can hardly say you've won or lost the game on the first turn as Night March, and honestly, if as the Night March player you think you won turn 1 because you attacked for 190 damage you are gravely mistaken. For all you know, your opponent will bring out an Oricorio next turn and KO all your pokemon simultaneously. Or, if you carelessly spend your 4 Battle Compressors turn 1 and your opponent gives you the old one-two punch with Lele into Karen, you're pretty much donezo. If your deck usually loses hard to Night March, it on you to play at least 1 tech card that counters Night March, and if you don't that's simply your own fault there's no excuse to not run at least a single Oricorio in your deck. You don't even need to attach energy, use their own Dimension Valley against them and attack with 0 energies. You'll pretty much never see a NM deck use Karen themselves, so if they discard 9+ Pokemon it's a done deal, there's nothing they can do to stop you from taking 2-3 KOs a turn.

 

So yeah, games against NM are hardly over on the first turn even if they manage to go second and discard 9+ Pokemon right off the bat.

[Felidae_]

Kinda odd that you bring up decks like Latios Donk and Night March, which I wouldn't have considered as turn 1 win decks at all.

 

The only consistent deck that could achieve this in recent years was obviously Shiftry and TPCI pulled the ban hammer on that pretty quickly. As someone who comes from MtG I sometimes can't believe how fast one can cycle through his entire deck in a single turn, yet seemingly is unable to accomplish anything with it .

The new turn 1 deck with Unown is too inconsistent and can be countered by numerous cards, while any other versions of the archetype suffer the same fate. If Unlimited where a thing it would look different, as you can easily set-up the combo there on your first turn, though then we'd arrive at the same meta as Shiftry, where you have 40%combo decks, 40% anti combo (quad Wobbufet) and 10% players who actually want to play, being forced to concede indefinitely until they meet each other.

 

I like creativity and I wish Pokemon would utilize more valid ways to win the game, but in a game that has so little interactions it's difficult to find the right balance.

 

That being said, if a deck is broken as **** you can be **** sure that I'll play it .

[Cisqoe]

Just giving examples guys! Not everyone on here is a long time veteran, i'm a very casual player I don't know all the terminology or best examples I'm just providing a conversational point

Maybe next time I'll separate myself from the post a little further as this has become so specific to what I'm saying directly despite me trying to generalize the topic.

 

Also, the 'net decking' thread is a good idea  

[Sakura150612]

Just giving examples guys! Not everyone on here is a long time veteran, i'm a very casual player I don't know all the terminology or best examples I'm just providing a conversational point

Maybe next time I'll separate myself from the post a little further as this has become so specific to what I'm saying directly despite me trying to generalize the topic.

 

Also, the 'net decking' thread is a good idea

 

Oh, don't let this get to you though. I think you were pretty reasonable about your opinion and you're willing to listen to what others say, which puts you several levels above the people who post a "X is OP plz ban" qq thread, insult everyone who disagrees and then quit to never be seen again. And believe me, we've seen A LOT of those.

 

At the very least, I won't think poorly of you because of this thread. I think it's cool that we can discuss topics like these. It can help others to find a new perspective on certain cards or decks. Of course, trying to be neutral about it does help. But again, I don't think you've done anything wrong by making this thread.

 

EDIT: If there is any term or concept you don't understand, just ask. No one is going to criticize you for not knowing (at the very least I won't). Being a casual player is perfectly fine, but if you're given the chance to learn something new, there's no reason for you to not ask. So go ahead, I won't bite, I swear :3

Edited November 24, 2018 by Sakura150612

[Chasista]

Not always possible of course, it's luck dependant but, a thing that became like a mantra to me and I repeat, unwittingly in 1st turn every game (going 1st or 2nd, no matter what) is: Cover you bench.

 

Of course if you got only 1 Basic and going 2nd, you can loose before doing nothing. But sometimes, if you suspect your active is going to ge KOed before you can play, you need to bench that Lele-GX or Shaymin-EX although not using'em to get something. Sad, but still you will be able to play the game.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Chasista

[SuperStone]

The only consistent deck that could achieve this in recent years was obviously Shiftry and TPCI pulled the ban hammer on that pretty quickly.

I mean, it wasn't that quick.  Unlimited was unplayable for a long time before they got rid of it.

 

I think the only card, recently, that they've been fast about banning was the Trump Card, after a couple of regionals happened with all the problems the card brings.

[Dave230]

Yikes decks centered around guzz lord gx can be scary if you don't have the cards. Luckily most of the time it's the only card.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Dave230

[Dave230]

Also about net decking I've done it before and trust me just cause it's a great deck doesn't mean it's going to work for you. A novice will lose even with the best deck in the world whatever that may be. Especially if they don't know how it works. Learned that the hard way.

[Chasista]

What about this one I just met around Pheromosa GX?

 

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 14

* 4 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 2 Pheromosa-GX UPR 158
* 4 Seviper BUS 50
* 4 Unown AOR 30

##Trainer Cards - 44

* 4 Bicycle PLS 117
* 4 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
* 4 Recycle EPO 96
* 2 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 4 Acro Bike PRC 122
* 3 Roller Skates XY 125
* 2 Hypnotoxic Laser PLS 123
* 4 PlusPower BLW 96
* 1 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
* 2 PokéNav CES 140
* 4 Super Scoop Up BUS 124
* 1 Professor Kukui SUM 148
* 2 Sky Field ROS 89
* 1 Choice Band GRI 121
* 2 Float Stone BKT 137
* 4 Ultra Ball FCO 113

##Energy - 2

* 1 Beast Energy {*} FLI 117
* 1 Grass Energy  1

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

I went second. I had only a 170HP EX as active. He spent like 4 minutes alone. 3 Shaymin were played and was able to use 5 times Plus power. He discarded an HypnoLaser, maybe he could have won if played because he had a couple Seviper in bench. . but he needed to search for Pheromosa with an UltraBall. He finally attacked for 110 burning around 25 cards of the deck or so.

 

I just got an Enhanced hammer, LostZoning the attached Beast energy. He conceded (and could've done before to hit as it was not a win and I see no way to recover the Plus powers so maximum hit is 30+30 poison if you are able to find the second HypnoLaser).

 

Probably the deck would be bettter with Virbank CG. Apart from that, after the first turn, going first and with a lonely active in front, the deck seems can't go ahead too much really. If I would started with a lonely 60HP basic would have been another story but you almost need the starts aligned to have a win, not because it's impossible but for the conditions you need to meet.

[Sakura150612]

What about this one I just met around Pheromosa GX?

 

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

 

##Pokémon - 14

 

* 4 Shaymin-EX ROS 106

* 2 Pheromosa-GX UPR 158

* 4 Seviper BUS 50

* 4 Unown AOR 30

 

##Trainer Cards - 44

 

* 4 Bicycle PLS 117

* 4 Trainers' Mail ROS 92

* 4 Recycle EPO 96

* 2 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130

* 4 Acro Bike PRC 122

* 3 Roller Skates XY 125

* 2 Hypnotoxic Laser PLS 123

* 4 PlusPower BLW 96

* 1 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92

* 2 PokéNav CES 140

* 4 Super Scoop Up BUS 124

* 1 Professor Kukui SUM 148

* 2 Sky Field ROS 89

* 1 Choice Band GRI 121

* 2 Float Stone BKT 137

* 4 Ultra Ball FCO 113

 

##Energy - 2

 

* 1 Beast Energy {*} FLI 117

* 1 Grass Energy  1

 

Total Cards - 60

 

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

I went second. I had only a 170HP EX as active. He spent like 4 minutes alone. 3 Shaymin were played and was able to use 5 times Plus power. He discarded an HypnoLaser, maybe he could have won if played because he had a couple Seviper in bench. . but he needed to search for Pheromosa with an UltraBall. He finally attacked for 110 burning around 25 cards of the deck or so.

 

I just got an Enhanced hammer, LostZoning the attached Beast energy. He conceded (and could've done before to hit as it was not a win and I see no way to recover the Plus powers so maximum hit is 30+30 poison if you are able to find the second HypnoLaser).

 

Probably the deck would be bettter with Virbank CG. Apart from that, after the first turn, going first and with a lonely active in front, the deck seems can't go ahead too much really. If I would started with a lonely 60HP basic would have been another story but you almost need the starts aligned to have a win, not because it's impossible but for the conditions you need to meet.

I played against that deck 2 or 3 times I think. The first time I faced it, I started with just a Tapu Lele-GX, and he managed to KO it somehow xd He actually burned his entire deck in 1 turn. Literally; he attacked me with zero cards left in the deck. He did get lucky with some coin flip items, so I dunno if they can always do that, but it was pretty nuts nonetheless. And you know what's sad? Right as I'm typing this, it seems I'm about to face a repeat but with Latidonk instead xd Even though I knew from the type distribution I still chose to make him go second because of greed (I need to go 2nd in Night March).

 

EDIT: Survived the T1 donk and proceeded to win the game. It was surprisingly close though, I thought it was over when he failed the donk.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Sakura150612

[Chasista]

...

 

EDIT: Survived the T1 donk and proceeded to win the game. It was surprisingly close though, I thought it was over when he failed the donk.

 

Gratz!

[Sakura150612]

Gratz!

Thank you xD I was so nervous though, I could not believe the exact same thing was going to happen again right as I was typing about it. I made the same mistake, too. I sort of realized the deck my opponent was going to use based on the deck types, but I still chose to go 2nd thinking "what are the chances that I get only 1 basic Pokemon, again?". And lo and behold, I got to start with a single Lele, again. This time I got lucky he couldn't KO her xd But it was looking reaaally close to being an exact repeat of the last time.

[Chasista]

Yes, same happened to me. Oh that bad starting hand only with a (insert Tech EX/GX here) not useful for its purpose: Lele, Shaymin, or any other. And it's the only starter it could have resist that 1st attack.

 

It's hilarious.

[SuperStone]

So the advantage is another 30 damage from Beast energy over the 10 guaranteed damage fast raid has over... Wow, they just plain reused the name.  They're twins!  Same HP, too.

 

I just wonder what will happen if they ever make an electric one... who can use Electropowder.  They should basically never miss a donk then, but will donkable situations be common enough to make it rise above a laddering deck?

Edited December 2, 2018 by SuperStone

[Sakura150612]

So the advantage is another 30 damage from Beast energy over the 10 guaranteed damage fast raid has over... Wow, they just plain reused the name.  They're twins!  Same HP, too.

 

I just wonder what will happen if they ever make and electric one... who can use Electropowder.  They should basically never miss a donk then, but will donkable situations be common enough to make it rise above a laddering deck?

It's hard to say. At the very least, I think donk decks are too luck reliant to be good at anything other than laddering. The coin flip is a 50/50, and almost all of the decks will go first if given a choice. Then your opponent has to get unlucky and start with a single Pokemon. My guess is that they can't get a successful donk in more than 30% of their games, which no amount of consistency cards will raise since it depends on factors beyond your control. Winning with these decks when you miss the donk isn't easy, so I just can't see someone taking this to big tournaments over other more consistent meta decks.

 

Heck, even as a laddering deck it's not that efficient anymore since the introduction of winstreak bonuses. It's better to just play a good deck with a higher winrate.

[Zyragoon]

volcanion prism star can get you a turn one dunk. i actually nearly did it earlier today actually. if i were to have gotten one more aqua patch then i would have done it ,but i wasn't lucky. i still won the game, but just as a warning for anyone who sees a volcanion prism. 

[Sakura150612]

volcanion prism star can get you a turn one dunk. i actually nearly did it earlier today actually. if i were to have gotten one more aqua patch then i would have done it ,but i wasn't lucky. i still won the game, but just as a warning for anyone who sees a volcanion prism. 

To clarify, when we talk about "donk" decks, we mean decks that can attack when you go first, and the donk is only consiered successful if you can KO all of your opponent's Pokemon before they get to play their first turn. This means your opponent has to start with only 1 Basic Pokemon in their hand, because AFAIK it's impossible to take multiple KOs in your first turn if you went first. Shiftry NXD used to be able to do it because you could force multiple Pokemon to return to your opponent's hand using FotGP in combination with Devolution Spray and Super Scoop-Ups. Now, for the donk to succeed you have to meet these two basic conditions: 1) You must go first (against most match-ups, this means you must win the coin flip); 2) Your opponent must start with a single Basic Pokemon.

 

So, Volcanion Prism Star can't donk. It can't attack if you go first, and the ability doesn't help either because your opponent should have no Pokemon in their bench in order for the donk to succeed.

[Zyragoon]

Oh ok well thanks for the clarification.

[Chasista]

New try with Latios EX.

 

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 15

 

* 2 Latios-EX ROS 101
* 1 Oranguru SUM 113
* 3 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 4 Seviper BUS 50
* 1 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 137
* 4 Unown AOR 30

##Trainer Cards - 41

* 4 Mysterious Treasure FLI 113
* 2 VS Seeker PHF 109
* 1 Rotom Dex SUM 131
* 2 Choice Band GRI 121
* 4 Acro Bike PRC 122
* 2 Switch BCR 135
* 4 Super Scoop Up FFI 100
* 1 Professor Sycamore XY 122
* 4 Hypnotoxic Laser PLS 123
* 4 PlusPower BLW 96
* 3 Virbank City Gym PLS 126
* 1 Scoop Up Cyclone PLB 95
* 1 Professor Kukui SUM 148
* 1 AZ PHF 91
* 3 Ultra Ball ROS 93
* 1 Red Card XY 124
* 1 Devoured Field CIN 93
* 2 Muscle Band XY 121

##Energy - 4

* 4 Double Dragon Energy ROS 97

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

Opponent got no lasers but Virbank. 2 Seviper+another Latios EX in bench. Got 2 KOs on basics.

I had 6 Marchers in discard. At my second Battle compressor once I needed just one more marcher for 1HKOs (with Choice), he conceded.