[Bug] Shedinja (LOT) attaching with Nincada (LOT) to Pokemon

[ApertureB]

Hey,

 

I may be wrong on this, but I and others are playing with Shedinja from lost thunder and when using its ability "Vessel of Life" it also attaches the Nincada it evolved from as well.

 

The card on the text reads, "Once during your turn (before your attack), you may discard all cards attached to this Pokémon and attach it to one of your Pokémon as a Pokemon Tool Card. If the Pokémon this card is attached to is Knocked Out, your opponent takes 1 fewer Prize card"

 

From my understanding, this wouldnt be a bug because im referencing older cards like Splash Energy picking up the entire evolution line and cards like AZ picking up the entire evolution line as well even though both cards state "Discard all cards attached to this card".  But I have had many people tell me that this shouldnt be the case and PTCGO is in the wrong.

 

I guess this is also a ruling question in disguise, sorry for the large amount of information but its incredibly important to figure if this is intended or not because it can change the viability of certain decks if so.

 

Thanks

Edited November 22, 2018 by ApertureB

[Chasista]

Nincada is not an attached card to discard when ability is used. Must be attached too, although being irrelevant in play.

 

I don't know how the game shows it attached to active but in bench, once evolved, the pokémon is not Nincada anymore, is Shedinja. When you attach the Shedinja via ability, tools and energies are discarded and rest of cards are moved, although Nincada shouldn't be visible, but for information about who evolved from.

 

So I guess you're saying there's no bug in game, and according your info, I don't see any.

[playhavock]

its intended. cards attached would be energy/tools, not pokemon.

[ApertureB]

Im just looking for an official ruling, as a very large part of the competitive community does not believe both Nincada and Shedinja are attached and many of the Japanese players are saying that as well, if this would be played in regionals and such if I would definitely need an official ruling because it is super strong with Lost March.

 

So can anyone help with the official ruling?

Edited November 27, 2018 by ApertureB

[Sakura150612]

Im just looking for an official ruling, as a very large part of the competitive community does not believe both Nincada and Shedinja are attached and many of the Japanese players are saying that as well, if this would be played in regionals and such if I would definitely need an official ruling because it is super strong with Lost March.

 

So can anyone help with the official ruling?

If it doesn't already exist in a compendium somewhere, you won't have much luck finding an official ruling here. Sometimes I've found official rulings being cited in places like Reddt and Poke Beach, but those are pretty much just google search results. If our friend google doesn't give an answer within the first page or so, the ruling is either hidden really deep down in some random compendium or it just doesn't exist at all.

 

I don't think you'll find much with regards to Shedinja LOT due to how new it is, but you could try searching for the ruling of a different card with a similar functionality (I'm thinking of Electrode EVO here, but it might still not be exactly the same since it attaches itself as an energy rather than a tool).

Edited November 27, 2018 by Sakura150612

[RobRatt]

Im just looking for an official ruling, as a very large part of the competitive community does not believe both Nincada and Shedinja are attached and many of the Japanese players are saying that as well, if this would be played in regionals and such if I would definitely need an official ruling because it is super strong with Lost March.

 

So can anyone help with the official ruling?

Right upfront, I'll tell you that I don't know the "official" answer, and I'm just as curious what it will be.  The official source, the Compendium (which Sakura mentioned), hasn't been updated since November 2nd.  This situation hasn't been ruled on yet.

 

When it's all said & done, I think it will closely follow the ruling for Rescue Scarf...

 

Rescue Scarf (Tool) >>  If the Pokémon this card is attached to is Knocked Out by damage from an attack, put that Pokémon into your hand.  (Discard all card attached to that Pokémon.)

 

The official ruling on Rescue Scarf is...

 

Q. If an evolved Pokemon is Knocked Out with Rescue Scarf attached to it, do you get to put all of the evolution stage cards and Basic Pokemon card back into your hand, or just the highest stage Evolution card?

A. All of them go to back into your hand. (Dragons Exalted FAQ; Aug 23, 2012 TPCi Rules Team)

 

Seems to me that the precedent is clear, and the Pokémon underneath go together.  We'll have to wait and see what the bosses say, eh?

 

On a sidenote, I think you're overplaying how important this idea will be in Lost March.  From what I've seen so far, you'll have better luck with support cards like Trumbeak, Natu, Marshadow, and Oranguru.

Edited November 27, 2018 by RobRatt

[ApertureB]

Right upfront, I'll tell you that I don't know the "official" answer, and I'm just as curious what it will be.  The official source, the Compendium (which Sakura mentioned), hasn't been updated since November 2nd.  This situation hasn't been ruled on yet.

 

When it's all said & done, I think it will closely follow the ruling for Rescue Scarf...

 

Rescue Scarf (Tool) >>  If the Pokémon this card is attached to is Knocked Out by damage from an attack, put that Pokémon into your hand.  (Discard all card attached to that Pokémon.)

 

The official ruling on Rescue Scarf is...

 

Q. If an evolved Pokemon is Knocked Out with Rescue Scarf attached to it, do you get to put all of the evolution stage cards and Basic Pokemon card back into your hand, or just the highest stage Evolution card?

A. All of them go to back into your hand. (Dragons Exalted FAQ; Aug 23, 2012 TPCi Rules Team)

 

Seems to me that the precedent is clear, and the Pokémon underneath go together.  We'll have to wait and see what the bosses say, eh?

 

On a sidenote, I think you're overplaying how important this idea will be in Lost March.  From what I've seen so far, you'll have better luck with support cards like Trumbeak, Natu, Marshadow, and Oranguru.

 

Main thing people are saying is that Shedinja's wording is discard then attach while the others are move then discard. Its a weird order of operations thing I believe or at least seems to be.  It might simply be that difference that makes the difference.

 

Nincada/Shedinja is searchable through nearly every single search card that Lost March plays, adds 40 damage to the lost zone for free when paired with a Skiploom if it attaches Nincada as well, and its ability essentially gives it free retreat.  Currently though in real life TCG majority of players do not believe it functions this way and as such is not allowed in many events.  Its quite an important ruling in my opinion.

 

Edit: Just recieved word from the Judges at the Roanoke TCG Regional that Nincada is discarded while Shedinja is attached.  This was made between rounds 1 and 2 and thus this is an actual bug.

 

OFFICIAL RULING IS THIS IS A BUG

 

Thanks everyone for the help.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ApertureB

[RobRatt]

Edit: Just recieved word from the Judges at the Roanoke TCG Regional that Nincada is discarded while Shedinja is attached.  This was made between rounds 1 and 2 and thus this is an actual bug.

 

OFFICIAL RULING IS THIS IS A BUG

 

Thanks everyone for the help.

It may very well be this way, but the Judges from one event (even a Regionals) are NOT an "official ruling."  You'll want to see it in the Compendium (at PokeGym) or see it written on this main site.  The only time I would believe a Head Judge ruling as "set in stone" might be if I heard it directly (first-hand) from BDS or PokePop.

[JBergs]

Main thing people are saying is that Shedinja's wording is discard then attach while the others are move then discard. Its a weird order of operations thing I believe or at least seems to be.  It might simply be that difference that makes the difference.

 

Nincada/Shedinja is searchable through nearly every single search card that Lost March plays, adds 40 damage to the lost zone for free when paired with a Skiploom if it attaches Nincada as well, and its ability essentially gives it free retreat.  Currently though in real life TCG majority of players do not believe it functions this way and as such is not allowed in many events.  Its quite an important ruling in my opinion.

 

Edit: Just recieved word from the Judges at the Roanoke TCG Regional that Nincada is discarded while Shedinja is attached.  This was made between rounds 1 and 2 and thus this is an actual bug.

 

OFFICIAL RULING IS THIS IS A BUG

 

Thanks everyone for the help.

 

I believe the ruling is wrong because Nincada is the basic/base Pokèmon and therefore applies to *THIS* Pokèmon from the text in Vessel of Life.