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King-Magikarp

Alolan Diglett LOT 122 Call for family when bench full

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King-Magikarp

You are able to use Alolan Diglett's LOT #122 Call for family attack when your bench is full. The game will not allow you to add to your bench when full but since it is public knowledge that you have a full bench you should not be able to use the attack at all.

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Sakura150612

Is there any situation where this makes a difference though? With stuff like trying to use Sycamore with no cards left on your deck there are scenarios where it would make a difference (thinking very specifically of attacks like Granbull's All Out, or effects where something happens when you and your opponent have the same number of cards, or your hand size affects the result of the turn in one way or another).

 

With this though, I cannot think of a single scenario where using Call for Family while having a full bench would change anything at all in terms of results. Besides wasting 5 seconds once, not much of anything happens.

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RobRatt

While you can't use Abilities and Trainers for no effect, there are many times when you're allowed to Attack with no results.  You should still have the option to Attack for nothing, otherwise it would be confusing to players.

Another example:

When your opponent has flipped heads on their Agility attack, meaning they can't be damaged on your turn.  I don't see any harm in the card "wiggling" and doing nothing when I try.

There are many other Attacks that do nothing, even though you can still call them, because of a status condition, or special effect.  Often, players don't even realize their Attack is pointless until they've called it.  It has always happened this way, even in real-world games.  Many games are won (or change direction) because an opponent misplays, and calls an Attack with no result.

Edited by RobRatt
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King-Magikarp

Is there any situation where this makes a difference though? With stuff like trying to use Sycamore with no cards left on your deck there are scenarios where it would make a difference (thinking very specifically of attacks like Granbull's All Out, or effects where something happens when you and your opponent have the same number of cards, or your hand size affects the result of the turn in one way or another).

 

With this though, I cannot think of a single scenario where using Call for Family while having a full bench would change anything at all in terms of results. Besides wasting 5 seconds once, not much of anything happens.

 

 

While you can't use Abilities and Trainers for no effect, there are many times when you're allowed to Attack with no results. You should still have the option to Attack for nothing, otherwise it would be confusing to players.

 

Another example:

 

When your opponent has flipped heads on their Agility attack, meaning they can't be damaged on your turn. I don't see any harm in the card "wiggling" and doing nothing when I try.

 

There are many other Attacks that do nothing, even though you can still call them, because of a status condition, or special effect. Often, players don't even realize their Attack is pointless until they've called it. It has always happened this way, even in real-world games. Many games are won (or change direction) because an opponent misplays, and calls an Attack with no result.

 

A ) You cant use Brooklet Hill with a full bench as it is public knowledge that your bench is full. Call for family is the same thing. Just like how you can not play Nest Ball with a full bench or Target Whistle if your opponent has a full bench.

 

B ) It has been ruled though with other cards though like Brooklet Hill where if your bench is full you can not use the effect of that card. Call for family is the same. The difference between agility and call for family is that with agility you can still use an attack like Power Heater or Sky Return for the effect of the attack even though it does no damage. Sky Return for example from Shaymin EX returns this pokemon and all cards attached to it to your hand. Regardless of whether or not you do damage the effect still resolves as the returning effect is not on the defending pokemon but your active. Agility blocks damage and effect done to this pokemon, so in the case with Sky Return it ONLY blocks the 20 damage. The difference is that the game itself knows that the player using call for family has a full bench and since you cant add to a maxed out bench you cant use the attack.

Edited by King-Magikarp

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Sakura150612

Again, other than saving you 5 seconds there really is no change between being able to use an attack for no effect and not attacking at all. Personally, I don't want them to start messing with the programming so that attacks that do no effects to be unusable, only for cards to end up unusable by accident (bugs) when they should have had an effect.

 

Don't fix what isn't broken; they have enough work to do fixing actual bugs which impact the game. It's better if they spend their time fixing actual problems than trying to enforce a formality (just look at what happened to Deulge because they tried to apply the exact words of the card instead of leaving it alone and fine as it was).

Edited by Sakura150612

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XK920XK

you can use "call for family" even if your bench is full, unlike brooklet hill, call for family is an attack.  you may however not put a pokemon on your bench and then shuffle your deck afterwards. 

 

a good scenario to where you may want to use the call for family attack even though it does nothing is if you knew what your cards were on top of your deck and want to randomize it.

 

call for family is an attack thats been around for like ~10 years (if not longer) and its always been like this. the rules team already declared it legal to use the attack even if bench is full.

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King-Magikarp

Again, other than saving you 5 seconds there really is no change between being able to use an attack for no effect and not attacking at all. Personally, I don't want them to start messing with the programming so that attacks that do no effects to be unusable, only for cards to end up unusable by accident (bugs) when they should have had an effect.

 

Don't fix what isn't broken; they have enough work to do fixing actual bugs which impact the game. It's better if they spend their time fixing actual problems than trying to enforce a formality (just look at what happened to Deulge because they tried to apply the exact words of the card instead of leaving it alone and fine as it was).

 

So your saying that that's okay to have things that violate rules just because they may mess up other things?

 

 

you can use "call for family" even if your bench is full, unlike brooklet hill, call for family is an attack.  you may however not put a pokemon on your bench and then shuffle your deck afterwards. 

 

a good scenario to where you may want to use the call for family attack even though it does nothing is if you knew what your cards were on top of your deck and want to randomize it.

 

call for family is an attack thats been around for like ~10 years (if not longer) and its always been like this. the rules team already declared it legal to use the attack even if bench is full.

 

The attack has the same text as Nest Ball:

Nest Ball text: "Search your deck for a Basic Pokémon and put it onto your Bench. Then, shuffle your deck."

Diglett text: "Search your deck for a Basic Pokémon and put it onto your Bench. Then, shuffle your deck."

 

You cant play Nest Ball if your bench is full and its the same for the attack. It doesn't matter how long the attack has been in the game and rulings can change to better match the intended rulings from Japan. You also do not source where they made this ruling. What you are saying does not match with what is actually ruled officially. Your logic is saying that just because it is an attack it can be used even though you are unable to fulfill the attack. There is no period between search your deck and put a basic pokemon onto you bench and as such you must be able to complete the action to be able to use the attack. I just spoke with a PTO and confirmed that in fact you are unable to use the attack if the bench is full.

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SandaledOtter

So your saying that that's okay to have things that violate rules just because they may mess up other things?

 

 

 

The attack has the same text as Nest Ball:

Nest Ball text: "Search your deck for a Basic Pokémon and put it onto your Bench. Then, shuffle your deck."

Diglett text: "Search your deck for a Basic Pokémon and put it onto your Bench. Then, shuffle your deck."

 

You cant play Nest Ball if your bench is full and its the same for the attack. It doesn't matter how long the attack has been in the game and rulings can change to better match the intended rulings from Japan. You also do not source where they made this ruling. What you are saying does not match with what is actually ruled officially. Your logic is saying that just because it is an attack it can be used even though you are unable to fulfill the attack. There is no period between search your deck and put a basic pokemon onto you bench and as such you must be able to complete the action to be able to use the attack. I just spoke with a PTO and confirmed that in fact you are unable to use the attack if the bench is full.

The compendium is currently unreachable from here, but has been cited as having record of an official ruling stating that Call for Family can be used with a full bench.

 

You can try to search it yourself, or wait until someone else is able to reach it an give the exact source of the ruling.

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XK920XK

So your saying that that's okay to have things that violate rules just because they may mess up other things?

 

 

 

The attack has the same text as Nest Ball:

Nest Ball text: "Search your deck for a Basic Pokémon and put it onto your Bench. Then, shuffle your deck."

Diglett text: "Search your deck for a Basic Pokémon and put it onto your Bench. Then, shuffle your deck."

 

You cant play Nest Ball if your bench is full and its the same for the attack. It doesn't matter how long the attack has been in the game and rulings can change to better match the intended rulings from Japan. You also do not source where they made this ruling. What you are saying does not match with what is actually ruled officially. Your logic is saying that just because it is an attack it can be used even though you are unable to fulfill the attack. There is no period between search your deck and put a basic pokemon onto you bench and as such you must be able to complete the action to be able to use the attack. I just spoke with a PTO and confirmed that in fact you are unable to use the attack if the bench is full.

just because you dont like a ruling doesnt mean its wrong, my source as i stated in my original post comes right from the rules team. there is only 1 official rule team. that team makes the gameplay rules for all regions. you can even use this as a reference (Supreme Victors FAQ; Aug 27, 2009 PUI Rules Team) that will show you the exact answer to your question. so unless the rules has changed in the last 8 days (last time it was updated) then it is what it is.

Edited by XK920XK
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King-Magikarp
XK920XK, on 10 Nov 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

 

just because you dont like a ruling doesnt mean its wrong, my source as i stated in my original post comes right from the rules team. there is only 1 official rule team. that team makes the gameplay rules for all regions. you can even use this as a reference (Supreme Victors FAQ; Aug 27, 2009 PUI Rules Team) that will show you the exact answer to your question. so unless the rules has changed in the last 8 days (last time it was updated) then it is what it is.

 

That is 9 years ago. :/ Here is the relevant ruling from http://compendium.pokegym.net/ (Site is down due to wildfires in CA)

 

"Q2: Can I use Brooklet Hill to search through my deck even if my Bench is full?

 

A2: No. Since your Bench is already full, it’s public knowledge that Brooklet Hill (a Trainer card) won’t have any effect, so you cannot search your deck."

 

June 27th, 2017

 http://compendium.pokegym.net/rulingsnews/last-minute-rulings-before-2017-naic/

 

Retrieved: 11/10/2018 @ 11:44 PM EST

Edited by King-Magikarp
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XK920XK

That is 9 years ago. :/ Here is the relevant ruling from http://compendium.pokegym.net/ (Site is down due to wildfires in CA)

 

"Q2: Can I use Brooklet Hill to search through my deck even if my Bench is full?

 

A2: No. Since your Bench is already full, it’s public knowledge that Brooklet Hill (a Trainer card) won’t have any effect, so you cannot search your deck."

 

June 27th, 2018

 http://compendium.pokegym.net/rulingsnews/last-minute-rulings-before-2017-naic/

 

Retrieved: 11/10/2018 @ 11:44 PM EST

you do realize thats the exact place i got my info from right?

 

Q. If my bench if full can I still use "Call for Family" to search my deck?

A. Yes, you could search your deck, but not put out any Pokemon. (Supreme Victors FAQ; Aug 27, 2009 PUI Rules Team)

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King-Magikarp

you do realize thats the exact place i got my info from right?

 

Q. If my bench if full can I still use "Call for Family" to search my deck?

A. Yes, you could search your deck, but not put out any Pokemon. (Supreme Victors FAQ; Aug 27, 2009 PUI Rules Team)

Yes I did, They changed the ruling. That ruling is over 9 years old and they changed the ruling. Again I point to the text on both Diglett and Nest Ball. They are the EXACT same, so why would you be able to use the attack if not be able to play Nest Ball?

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Sakura150612

Why are you making such a fuss over a formality? We, as players, have absolutely nothing to gain from them rendering Call for Family unusable with a full bench. Take a look at this (http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/66283-257-known-issues/), and tell me if you think they should still spend time and effort changing this while there is a very long list of game-impacting bugs pending for a fix. No, just no. Not worth it, leave it as it is. There is zero merit in nitpicking something that is completely devoid of importance such as this.

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King-Magikarp

Why are you making such a fuss over a formality? We, as players, have absolutely nothing to gain from them rendering Call for Family unusable with a full bench. Take a look at this (http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/66283-257-known-issues/), and tell me if you think they should still spend time and effort changing this while there is a very long list of game-impacting bugs pending for a fix. No, just no. Not worth it, leave it as it is. There is zero merit in nitpicking something that is completely devoid of importance such as this.

 

Because it isn't working as it should >.> This sub forum is for reporting bug and errors which is what I am doing. You are at this point saying that I shouldn't be posting error or bugs just because they have a long list of stuff pending. Then what is the point in having a method for players to post threads raising issues with errors in the game.

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Sakura150612

I simply think that you're nitpicking on a minuscule detail that is not even clear whether it's a bug or not. I cannot comprehend what bothers you so much about this, that's all.

 

EDIT: The last time "Call for Family" was specifically mentioned in a ruling it said that you're allowed to use it anyways. AFAIK, any given ruling in pokemon stands unless it's specifically declared obsolete, which has not being the case for "Call for Family". Usually it's the older card (or effect in this case) that sets the precedent for newer cards, but that doesn't stop newer cards with similar effects (Brooklet Hill to follow your example) from working under a different ruling without the previous ruling on the first card becoming obsolete by default. So the ruling isn't as clear as you think. This really is a minor technicality that sits on a grey area.

Edited by Sakura150612

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Wolfgirl08

They are the EXACT same, so why would you be able to use the attack if not be able to play Nest Ball?

Because using a Trainer card for no effect and attacking for no effect are two completely different things. As explained earlier, there is no fundamental difference between attacking for no effect and having it fail, fizzle out due to a bad target, etc.

 

As long as you meet the requirements to perform an attack, you can do the attack and you do as much as you are able to do. An attack will let you know if you can't use it. 

 

Also, I will point out that it is not uncommon for old rulings to be found in the Compendium. Only when a ruling has been updated is the date changed. So a 9-year-old ruling simply means that the ruling hasn't changed in the 9 years since it was made.

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