[CARD] Jirachi promo not protecting against loss of abilities from shadow stitching

[freezekent]

I'm playing Marshadow toolbox online with jirachi promo in the discard (the one with the stardust attack) -- opponent has splash energy on their frogadier.

Using the Jirachi Promo's stardust attack (text: "Discard a Special Energy attached to your opponent's Active Pokémon. If you do, prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this Pokémon during your opponent's next turn.") I remove the splash energy on the frogadier.

Next turn, opponent upgrades their frogadier and plays Greninja's shadow stitching attack (text: "Until the end of your opponent's next turn, each Pokémon your opponent has in play, in his or her hand, and in his or her discard pile has no Abilities. (This includes cards that come into play on that turn.").

My reading of the text (and the entire reason I used jirachi's stardust attach rather than knocking out the frogadier) was that my Marshadow would keep its abilities after shadow stitching (similar to how Magearna-EX can protect against losing abilities from shadow stitching). But my marshadow still lost its ability.  

[SandaledOtter]

This could be the same as the known damage reduction bug:

 

Attack effects that create a damage reduction effect on the attacking Pokemon, such as Golisopod-GX's Armor Press attack, are removed at the end of the attacking player's current turn, rather than at the end of the opponent's next turn.

...but affecting something other than damage reduction.

 

Or it could be related to Marshadow, as there have been borrowed attack effect transference issues. I took a quick look at the KI post and didn't see any current ones.

[graywh]

At first, I thought this was a bug.  But it looks like it is working as intended.

 

 

Q. If I have Suicune with the "Wind Charm" Ability Active and my opponent attacks with Greninja's "Shadow Stitching", are all my Abilities turned off including "Wind Charm", or does "Wind Charm" prevent "Shadow Stitching" from disabling my Pokemon's Abilities?

A. Wind Charm prevents Shadow Stitching from disabling your Pokemon's Abilities. However, if Suicune goes to the Bench, Wind Charm's effect goes away and your Pokemon will no longer have Abilities that turn. Suicune also does not protect any Pokemon not already in play. (BREAKpoint FAQ; Feb 11, 2016 TPCi Rules Team)

Q. If Bronzong with the "Metal Fortress" Ability is in play, are benched Pokemon protected from Greninja's "Shadow Stitching" attack? If so, does it also protect Pokemon that come into play on the bench during the opponent's turn?
A. If Bronzong is on the Bench, all benched Pokemon are protected, including ones put into play after the attack has happened (for example, Shaymin-EX's "Set Up" Ability will work in this scenario); however, the Active Pokemon is not protected, even if it goes to the Bench it will not get its Ability back. If Bronzong is Active and has its Metal Fortress shut off, the Benched Pokemon are not protected; even if it moves to the Bench, it will not get its Ability back. Finally, if Bronzong is on the Bench and becomes the Active Pokemon during your turn, it loses its Ability and the Benched Pokémon are no longer protected. (Jun 23, 2016 TPCi Rules Team)

 

These rulings indicate that your Pokemon can lose its protection from an opponent's attack effect during your turn.  It seems weird to me.

[Mod_GuruLot]

 

I'm playing Marshadow toolbox online with jirachi promo in the discard (the one with the stardust attack) -- opponent has splash energy on their frogadier.

Using the Jirachi Promo's stardust attack (text: "Discard a Special Energy attached to your opponent's Active Pokémon. If you do, prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this Pokémon during your opponent's next turn.") I remove the splash energy on the frogadier.

Next turn, opponent upgrades their frogadier and plays Greninja's shadow stitching attack (text: "Until the end of your opponent's next turn, each Pokémon your opponent has in play, in his or her hand, and in his or her discard pile has no Abilities. (This includes cards that come into play on that turn.").

My reading of the text (and the entire reason I used jirachi's stardust attach rather than knocking out the frogadier) was that my Marshadow would keep its abilities after shadow stitching (similar to how Magearna-EX can protect against losing abilities from shadow stitching). But my marshadow still lost its ability.  

 

Hello there Freezekent, 

 

Thanks for reporting this issue to us! I'm passing it along to the developers for their review. Your input is awesome! 

 

Please, always research your issue in the Known Issues Thread to make sure it isn't something our team is already working on. Yours has not yet been listed, as SandaledOtter correctly states.

 

Also, I have updated the title of your topic with the correct category.

 

Hope this helps!

[SandaledOtter]

At first, I thought this was a bug.  But it looks like it is working as intended.

...

 

These rulings indicate that your Pokemon can lose its protection from an opponent's attack effect during your turn.  It seems weird to me.

This doesn't seem to be related to that ruling, since this is an attack effect that should stop the effects of the shadow stitching attack, rather than an ability that can be turned off by it.

[RobRatt]

I'm playing Marshadow toolbox online with jirachi promo in the discard (the one with the stardust attack) -- opponent has splash energy on their frogadier.

Using the Jirachi Promo's stardust attack (text: "Discard a Special Energy attached to your opponent's Active Pokémon. If you do, prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this Pokémon during your opponent's next turn.") I remove the splash energy on the frogadier.

Next turn, opponent upgrades their frogadier and plays Greninja's shadow stitching attack (text: "Until the end of your opponent's next turn, each Pokémon your opponent has in play, in his or her hand, and in his or her discard pile has no Abilities. (This includes cards that come into play on that turn.").

My reading of the text (and the entire reason I used jirachi's stardust attach rather than knocking out the frogadier) was that my Marshadow would keep its abilities after shadow stitching (similar to how Magearna-EX can protect against losing abilities from shadow stitching). But my marshadow still lost its ability.

On your turn (#1), you use Marshadow's Ability to copy Jirachi's Stardust  ("Discard a Special Energy attached to your opponent's Active Pokémon.  If you do, prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this Pokémon during your opponent's next turn.").

 

Even being successful, wouldn't this effect only last until the end of your opponent's next turn?  So, even stopping the effect of Shadow Stitching on turn #2, (your opponent) -- meaning you could use your Ability -- wouldn't that end before it came back to your turn again?  Shadow Stitching would last all the way until the end of your next turn (#3).

 

I don't know, honestly.  These obscure situations make my head spin sometimes, and I'm just speculating (or maybe second-guessing).

Edited May 4, 2018 by RobRatt

[Chasista]

On your turn (#1), you use Marshadow's Ability to copy Jirachi's Stardust  ("Discard a Special Energy attached to your opponent's Active Pokémon.  If you do, prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this Pokémon during your opponent's next turn.").

 

Even being successful, wouldn't this effect only last until the end of your opponent's next turn?  So, even stopping the effect of Shadow Stitching on turn #2, (your opponent) -- meaning you could use your Ability -- wouldn't that end before it came back to your turn again?  Shadow Stitching would last all the way until the end of your next turn (#3).

 

I don't know, honestly.  These obscure situations make my head spin sometimes, and I'm just speculating (or maybe second-guessing).

 

 

That's very interesting.

 

If during opponent's next turn the effects of attacks are prevented, does the effects of attack really activate but prevented in that turn? Or does the prevention make the effect not be activated directly?

 

This is no brain in an effect lasting that turn (let's say healing some HP, is prevented) but activating or not would be the key for effects lasting more than that turn.

[freezekent]

Yes -- thinking about this more, I think it is working as intended due to the "turn-based" reading of the rules.  Jirachi's stardust special energy removal only prevents effects of attacks for my opponent's next turn, and the shadow stitching effect applies on my turn following that.  It would be nice to get a ruling on this in the compendium, since it seems the magearna/suicune situations are not the same as this.  

[SandaledOtter]

Yes -- thinking about this more, I think it is working as intended due to the "turn-based" reading of the rules.  Jirachi's stardust special energy removal only prevents effects of attacks for my opponent's next turn, and the shadow stitching effect applies on my turn following that.  It would be nice to get a ruling on this in the compendium, since it seems the magearna/suicune situations are not the same as this.  

Ah, but Shadow Stitching reads "Until the end of your opponent's next turn..." and not "During" or "on" it.

That means it begins immediately, when it should still be blocked.

 

Has anyone tested this without going through Marshadow?

Edited May 5, 2018 by SandaledOtter