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Legacy Format Needs Some Changes


Startropic1
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Important Note:  Legacy format is something that is exclusive to PTCGO, and thus is ruled by the makers of this video game, and not the physical card game itself.

 

I'm noticing an issue with the legacy format, but I'm not certain of the best solution for it.

 

Legacy is meant for keeping older cards alive, and let's be honest some of those really old Pokemon from the early days of the game can't begin to compete with EX Pokemon--or at least some of them.     There are some older EX pokemon that have lower HP (below 150HP) and/or use attacks that do significantly less than 100 damage.

 

Thus, we have a dilemma.  Keeping those high powered EX cards in Legacy makes a lot of those older Pokemon unplayable, greatly shrinking the poole of viable Pokemon for that format,  however at the same time there are very low powered EX Pokemon from yesteryear that are good for Legacy but would be trounced if mixed in with the modern stuff found in standard/expanded.

 

The only thing I can think of is to maybe have another format exclusively for all the pre-EX Pokemon.

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The legacy format has problems, but not those that you mentioned.

 

As with every format, you'll only be able to play a fraction of the available cards, this is true for any constructed format ( just look at the amount of Pokemon that never see play in Standard / Expanded. That was also true for the old Unlimited format ( although you could argue that Legend Pokemon, as well as certain Pokemon Prime saw more play in that format, compared to Legacy, where we usually only see Celebi Prime and Lugia Legend).

 

Bottom line, ******* Pokemon from HGSS to LT are completely useless and are thus rightfully discard as unplayable thrash in the format.

 

However, speaking of the problems that Legacy is currently facing, their have been a lot of worrying trends as of late.

 

First of all it has become seemingly impossible to get a Legacy event running. Even if the game hands out insane packs (i.e. PF and HGSS – UD), queues wont fill up in a reasonable amount of time. I have my own theories why this is occurring, though I can honestly just speculate.

An even greater problem that the format was inevitably bound to face is the lack of new input. Being a non-rotating format, it seems that by now every tier 1 – 2 deck has been explored and refined, leaving only a bunch of whacky tier 3 -4 decks to be explored (i.e. Lost World, Magmortar Mill, etc.). Unlike Unlimited, we won't see any changes to the format in the distant future and even as a Legacy enthusiast myself I have to admit that the format as grown rather boring over the last few months.

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perhaps to fresh up the game a little bit we should have a few xy era cards be legal for a short amount of time. For example we could have 1 week where battle compressor,muscle band, sky field and xerneas are legal for 4 days and then the other 3 days are just legacy as it is now.

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There are three ways to fix the Legacy problem:

 

1) Cycle in the next set after Black & White: Legendary Treasures (XY Base would be first and add later) into Legacy format every time a new set in introduced in Standard/Expanded.

 

2) The most unrealistic idea: Add a previous set from HGSS (Platinum: Arceus would be first and add earlier) when a new set is added in Standard/Expanded.

 

3) Change Legacy to be Unlimited format but without any banned cards. Personally, I like this one most.

 

It's honestly that simple.

Edited by srsrox
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There are three ways to fix the Legacy problem:

 

1) Cycle in the next set after Black & White: Legendary Treasures (XY Base would be first and add later) into Legacy format every time a new set in introduced in Standard/Expanded.

 

2) The most unrealistic idea: Add a previous set from HGSS (Platinum: Arceus would be first and add earlier) when a new set is added in Standard/Expanded.

 

3) Change Legacy to be Unlimited format but without any banned cards. Personally, I like this one most.

 

Startropic1 has already mentioned a key factor that makes Legacy quite unique: it's exclusive to the online game ( as was Unlimited prior, as the “real” Unlimited is usually considered base set onwards).

 

I really like the idea of cycling cards into the format, however then we also need to talk about a potential ban cards, (FoGP, LTC, etc.). I'd imagine that this would also work as an incentive to generate more players, as you'd have more overlaps between Expanded and Legacy (especially neat for new players, who can't really invest into three different formats.

 

As much as I'd like to see DP era cards in the game (just imagine the decks you could build with Broken Time Space....), I'd say the chances of seeing this are below 0%.

 

As for Unlimited: Once again, I strongly believe that Unlimited as a community driven format would work out perfectly. While the idea of a banlist feels kinda counter intuitive to the format (you have unlimited possibilities, well, except for those cards...), something I argued strongly against during the beginning of the Shiftry era, participating in Matthew's Unlimited tournament, that featured quite a large ban list:

 

 

 

Archeops NV

Decidueye GX

Flareon PLF

Forretress FLF

Joltik PHF (Night March)

Latios EX

M Rayquaza EX RS (Colourless)

Seismitoad EX

Shiftry NXD

Tsareena SM

Trevenant XY

Vespiquen AO

Vileplume UD

Vileplume AO

Weavile PLF

Wobbuffet PHF

G-Booster

Scoop Up Cyclone

Primal Groudon EX + Scramble Switch [in the Same Deck].

Sableye DEX + Life Dew [in the Same Deck].

 

 

 

While I don't agree with every choice he made, it was still one of the best tournaments I played in a long time, with seemingly endless possibilities and a variety of creative decks.

 

If we somehow manage to bring back Unlimited and create a rotating ban list ( i.e. create a poll once every month to decide which card leave the ban list and which cards are added to the list, based on a selection of potential candidates) that'd be awesome.

Additionally, bringing back Unlimited would also re-install a casual format in the lower ELO levels, something that PTCGO is severely lacking as of late.

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If we somehow manage to bring back Unlimited and create a rotating ban list ( i.e. create a poll once every month to decide which card leave the ban list and which cards are added to the list, based on a selection of potential candidates) that'd be awesome.

Additionally, bringing back Unlimited would also re-install a casual format in the lower ELO levels, something that PTCGO is severely lacking as of late.

I agree with you, however I don't think that a poll to vote on a ban list would be a good idea. Sadly the ptcgo community can be toxic just like any other online game its nothing that we can control and when people lose they get mad. Whats very likely to happen is that players will vote out all of the decks they don't like witch would oftin be "meta decks"; I think it should be the developer's choice.

 

Speaking of a ban list for unlimited I think it should look something like this

 

Trump card

First ticket

archleops NV

shiftry NXD

Vileplume UD (only this vileplume not the AO one)

 

Small but effective as those are the 5 cards that could severely limit the format. I put no item locking cards on the list and that is because I believe know that item lock can be good for the game it promotes skillful deck building and its not unbeatable (hex, ranger, promo tina etc).

Yes FOGP can be used for a t1 item lock so I put the UD vileplume on the list however that is because there is no easy counter;the other vileplume people beat it before and in a format with more consistency options it can be beat again. Donking is still possible so I put first ticket on the list giving donk decks an very low win rate; less then 30% sense they need to go first, vs a single active pokemon and then hit the donk witch is not always easy. With FOGP shiftry should be banned for its donking ability as well although even if FOGP was banned shiftry would see no play anyways. Trump card and archleops are banned for the same reasons as they are in expanded.

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Yeah, you are right. There are definitely some problems with creating a public poll ( the least of them being the fact that the forum isn't really the most crowded place).

However, I do believe that the PTCGO staff is capable of creating a system that would allow a community driven poll, without being overrun by trolls. The mere idea of having an actual impact on the format would arguably motivate players to engage in a serious discussion.

As for the ban list: It boils down how “competitive” the format is going to be. Matthews list is focused on creating a middle ground, were everyone is able to play their deck, without having to worry about a bunch of party ******* (although he managed to created quite the cancerous deck himself^^). Personally I don't mind those cards (given that I played every **** Toad variant in all of the formats, that shouldn't come as a surprise), but I wouldn't be upset either, if they were banned.

 

Edit: Oh, and don't ban LTC. The card is the backbone of so many creative decks :D.

Edited by Felidae_
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An even greater problem that the format was inevitably bound to face is the lack of new input. Being a non-rotating format, it seems that by now every tier 1 – 2 deck has been explored and refined, leaving only a bunch of whacky tier 3 -4 decks to be explored (i.e. Lost World, Magmortar Mill, etc.). Unlike Unlimited, we won't see any changes to the format in the distant future and even as a Legacy enthusiast myself I have to admit that the format as grown rather boring over the last few months.

This.

 

The latest (great) Legacy challenge made it clear why I don't play Legacy casually. I'm not that deep into Legacy, but I have lately managed to put together some decks I thought to be interesting to play and tried those. Not surprisingly I was stomped by VirGenCel, Empoleon, Garchomp+Altaria dragon deck, different variants of TDK etc. Gave up, played a few tournaments and grinded the the rest with LandoGarb and RayEels.

 

Interestingly kid had much more fun with the challenge. Simple water deck we built of the very limited cards available was decent enough. Propably because of the low ELO and influx of similar new Legacy players.

 

Faced a cheapish Plasma Eevee variation and actually managed to build it with a little help and lots of wasted coins trying trade that one missing Ninetales. :) Now the kid would like to know how to get those "cute Eevee sleeves".

 

--

 

Anyway, I'd be delighted to play during "Rogue Legacy deck weekend". Temporarily suspending the tier1 (tier2?) decks could bring more interesting match ups for higher ELO players as well.

 

Note: I have no idea how feaible that would be in practice.  :P

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<snip>

 

Now the kid would like to know how to get those "cute Eevee sleeves".

 

There aren't any tradable Eevee sleeves or deck boxes. Same with most of the "eeveelutions."

 

They were in the Shop for a long time, for Tokens only (no Gem purchases / tradable), and haven't been available for about a year or so.

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I will love a formate with HGSS to BW Nobel Victory.

 

Noble Victory is the last BW set that have no EX card's.

Will be interesting to have a Nobel Victory turnement for 1-2 weeks.

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I will love a formate with HGSS to BW Nobel Victory.

 

Noble Victory is the last BW set that have no EX card's.

Will be interesting to have a Nobel Victory turnement for 1-2 weeks.

The only issue with that is that we already know what happened in that format so we would still see the same problem we have with legacy now and that is the metagame getting stale.

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I will love a formate with HGSS to BW Nobel Victory.

 

Noble Victory is the last BW set that have no EX card's.

Will be interesting to have a Nobel Victory turnement for 1-2 weeks.

So, 2011 World Championship ?

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So, 2011 World Championship ?

Yes!

Legacy 2011 ;)

 

A new rotation system for Legacy turnement? So every 2 week they rotate the Legacy format.

From the years: 2011-2014 World Championships.

That will make 4 different Legacy formates...

Week 1-2 - 2011 World Championships

Week 3-4 - 2012 World Championships

Week 5-6 - 2013 World Championships

Week 7-8 - 2014 World Championships

Edited by settlers25
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Yes!

Legacy 2011 ;)

 

A new rotation system for Legacy turnement? So every 2 week they rotate the Legacy format.

From the years: 2010-2014 World Championships.

That will make 5 different Legacy formates...

Week 1-2 - 2010 World Championships

Week 3-4 - 2011 World Championships

Week 5-6 - 2012 World Championships

Week 7-8 - 2013 World Championships

Week 9-10 - 2014 World Championships

I'll leave this discussion to bigger brains than mine.  But just to point out, Hawaii 2010 decks can't be duplicated in-game, since it was Diamond & Pearl Format (DP-on).  ...The first Worlds possible is 2011 (HGSS-on).

Edited by RobRatt
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I'll leave this discussion to bigger brains than mine. But just to point out, Hawaii 2010 decks can't be duplicated in-game, since it was Diamond & Pearl Format (DP-on). ...The first Worlds possible is 2011 (HGSS-on).

Ups... That was a mistake ;) Sorry...

Or they can realise the Diamond & Pearl cards :D

They was in the system in the Alpha state of the game ;)

Edited by settlers25
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To be honest, I think Legacy could do with a restriction system (certain cards have a point value and decks can't be used if they go beyond a certain point total) similar to Japan's Hall of Fame/Palace format but it would need some fixes due to Palace being a DP-on format.

Edited by grriffinn
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I'll leave this discussion to bigger brains than mine.  ....

 

^^

 

I think that asking for a rotating Legacy format in public "Events" is too much to wish for and will never happen.

 

If only we could have "private Events"  where (selected) players would be able to organise tailor-made tournaments within a range of adjustable pre-established criteria (such as: # of participants, structure, format...).

 

This and a "spectator view mode" were my first wishes/suggestions since I play this game.

As far as I am aware, allowing players to organise their own "private events" within the ptcgo client, was never seriously considered.

 

As for the "spectator view mode", I think it was mentioned some time ago as being in development

Edited by iyado166
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If only we could have "private Events"  where (selected) players would be able to organise tailor-made tournaments within a range of adjustable pre-established criteria (such as: # of participants, structure, format...).

To quote myself from the latest feedback thread ( September)

 

Wow, another visual update that no-one asked for and that ultimately serves no real purpose. Meh.

 

Who cares about a spectator mode, improvements for the trading system, refinement of the reward ladder, additional tools to manage your collection, or, God forbid, something really creative (i.e. how about a tool to create a custom tournament grid for private events ? ).

 

Also, the quest continues: ELO leader boards, make it happen.

 

 

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Interesting conversation!  I don't want to set much in the way of expectation that things will change in Legacy, but we do understand some of the problems the format is experiencing (especially the lack of tournament events firing off due to volume).  Keep it going, maybe a silver bullet will bubble to the top?

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I don't have any ideas for saving legacy. The format is very static, and apart from increasing rewards i doubt anything will pique interest in the format.

 

Although, i'd like to see a rotating format including old packs (let's for the sake of explanation call it "mystery")

 

every month, the mystery format would change to include a fixed number of sets from hgss base to current (crimson invasion)

 

legacy itself has 16 sets in it, so say this format would contain 13 random sets (3 from hgss era, 5-6 from expanded, 4-5 from standard)

 

So every month (or maybe the week before the change) the mystery format would be revealed and everyone would be able to change their decks to match the new format.

 

The benefits i can see of this over legacy are:

 

1. includes some newer sets (so newer players despite not having some older cards can still attempt to participate- whereas they absolutely couldn't in legacy)

 

2. keeps the format rotating so it never gets stale (in legacy the decks you go up against get pretty predictable and the outcome is also fixed most of the time before the coinflip itself)

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I don't have any ideas for saving legacy. The format is very static, and apart from increasing rewards i doubt anything will pique interest in the format.

 

Although, i'd like to see a rotating format including old packs (let's for the sake of explanation call it "mystery")

 

every month, the mystery format would change to include a fixed number of sets from hgss base to current (crimson invasion)

 

legacy itself has 16 sets in it, so say this format would contain 13 random sets (3 from hgss era, 5-6 from expanded, 4-5 from standard)

 

So every month (or maybe the week before the change) the mystery format would be revealed and everyone would be able to change their decks to match the new format.

 

The benefits i can see of this over legacy are:

 

1. includes some newer sets (so newer players despite not having some older cards can still attempt to participate- whereas they absolutely couldn't in legacy)

 

2. keeps the format rotating so it never gets stale (in legacy the decks you go up against get pretty predictable and the outcome is also fixed most of the time before the coinflip itself)

A rotating Legacy format, as iyado166 already pointed out, would be an issue due to tournaments. Adding new cards also makes it sound like Legacy would just become Expanded-lite despite its intentions of attracting newer players to the format. 

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A rotating Legacy format, as iyado166 already pointed out, would be an issue due to tournaments. Adding new cards also makes it sound like Legacy would just become Expanded-lite despite its intentions of attracting newer players to the format.

i'm sorry, i can't seem to figure out why this would be a problem. If you could explain it to me that'd be nice.

 

If i may explain, the reason i think the mini format i'm suggesting would be more successful than expanded is that expanded has too many "must run" cards. For example every deck must run 2-3 tapu lele/jirachi, 1+ shaymins, 3-4 vs seeker, 1 lysandre, 1 guzma, 4 ultra balls, 3-4 sycamores, 3-4 N's

 

That's already 20 cards of your deck which is 100% fixed. Based on the sets rotating into and out of format (in an unpredictable manner) there would be a lot more incentive to mess with the standard supporter line, the commonly used items and more. Just because they won't be available in the format.

 

This would help some decks and hurt some decks. But the monthly (or so) random rotation of sets would help people's deckbuilding and keep the format spiced up

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- A rotation Legacy ladder will be nice.

- A random 3 HGSS set + 3 BW set.

 

A formate of a type where et chance after 2 weeks. Thet will prevent players from using a default deck for all Legacy Turnements? (Just like i always use Gen-Vir-Cel)

 

The problem with this is it req a lot of coding to add this to the game... :(

Edited by settlers25
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i'm sorry, i can't seem to figure out why this would be a problem. If you could explain it to me that'd be nice.

 

If i may explain, the reason i think the mini format i'm suggesting would be more successful than expanded is that expanded has too many "must run" cards. For example every deck must run 2-3 tapu lele/jirachi, 1+ shaymins, 3-4 vs seeker, 1 lysandre, 1 guzma, 4 ultra balls, 3-4 sycamores, 3-4 N's

 

That's already 20 cards of your deck which is 100% fixed. Based on the sets rotating into and out of format (in an unpredictable manner) there would be a lot more incentive to mess with the standard supporter line, the commonly used items and more. Just because they won't be available in the format.

 

This would help some decks and hurt some decks. But the monthly (or so) random rotation of sets would help people's deckbuilding and keep the format spiced up

setters25 kind of pointed it out one issue. It's an unnecessary, rotation-level load of coding plopped onto the dev team's lap and one that would happen every month. 

 

 

The bit about there being "a lot more incentive to mess with the standard Supporter line" kind of wishful thinking, with the amount of reprints spread around the various sets there are going to be cards that will stay in the format. And if they don't, players will just swap out the now-banned cards for others with similar effects. Standard goes through the same thing every year and making a format do that every month will just annoy people at best or cause people to abandon the format at worst. 

 

Two other issues that completely blew over my head were availability and discussion of said format. The former subject is easily fixed by having more Legacy products in the shop, I know a LOT of us would love to see a product that mimics the old World of Illusions box due to that one has a guaranteed Celebi Prime in it. The matter of discussion is more problematic. We've seen in the past as to how much vitriol can be thrown around when it comes to discussing rotations and that happens yearly, can you imagine how bad it could get if it happened on the last week of every month?

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setters25 kind of pointed it out one issue. It's an unnecessary, rotation-level load of coding plopped onto the dev team's lap and one that would happen every month. 

 

 

The bit about there being "a lot more incentive to mess with the standard Supporter line" kind of wishful thinking, with the amount of reprints spread around the various sets there are going to be cards that will stay in the format. And if they don't, players will just swap out the now-banned cards for others with similar effects. Standard goes through the same thing every year and making a format do that every month will just annoy people at best or cause people to abandon the format at worst. 

 

Two other issues that completely blew over my head were availability and discussion of said format. The former subject is easily fixed by having more Legacy products in the shop, I know a LOT of us would love to see a product that mimics the old World of Illusions box due to that one has a guaranteed Celebi Prime in it. The matter of discussion is more problematic. We've seen in the past as to how much vitriol can be thrown around when it comes to discussing rotations and that happens yearly, can you imagine how bad it could get if it happened on the last week of every month?

yeah i suppose the first two points could be a death sentence to the idea. I was wondering about the second myself while suggesting.

 

About the rotation however, i'd like to point out that the variety of decks shrinks a lot every rotation due to the lack of playable cards. Although in the format i'm suggesting, there would be swaps of some good cards for others (practically every set has at least one amazing card) That should alleviate the massive feeling of loss that a person has when say shaymin rotates or you lose vs seeker from standard etc. (since you might get another card like archie's ace in the hole or tapu lele)

 

And about the problem of availability, let me remind you that this is a replacement to legacy. I mean it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to anyone who played legacy (as well as allows players who are newer to join in the fun- although without some older cards) Although i do admit a monthly deck change might be too much. I just took one month as an arbitrary time gap to prevent formation of a super stable meta.

 

I do agree though that the idea is far less appealing to me now that you've pointed out the major flaws

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