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Knockout Challenge Solution (Loser Prize Compensation)


MysterQ
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A common complaint is that completing KO challenges are too difficult because people concede.

There are also some complaints about prizes for losing player. The wheel is gone, players now get VS points if they take a prize. 

 

Maybe, losing player should get VS points for each prize the OPPONENT takes. 

This encourages the losing player to keep playing. He can concede and get 0points or he can wait 5minutes and get 6points. This also means the other player gets 6 knockouts for any challenge.

Maybe the losing player will also be able to win. Right now, if I am losing I just concede. I get nothing for playing more. But this also means I never get practice in fighting back. Maybe if they are encouraged because even if they lose they get something, we might help people get better. I have seen some people say they just try to get a knockout very fast then concede.

 

To be honest, this still isn't a great solution.

For anyone grinding, it is still better to concede (10seconds) and hope you win the next match (10points), rather than spending 5 minutes and getting 6loser points.

At the same time, maybe the opponent is not nice. He might stall or play slow. So that 5 minute victory may drag out into 10. All he has to do is attack for knockout, but he may play a bunch of useless cards.

At the same time, if you try to keep fighting back. You are extending your game. This is still a good thing! but it is sadly inefficient and means your opponent will likely spend more time thinking.

 

The problem is the game encourages speed and grinding.

But, I think I like this direction. If we can come up with a good reward for each prize the opponent takes. I think it can reward losers, encourage full gameplay, and help with knockout challenges. I don't think 6vs points is a lot, but maybe some people do.

 

I think this direction should be looked into. Of course, if losers get better rewards than winners, then that is a problem. But honestly, this is a F2P game. Why not give the loser rewards, it will encourage them and keep people playing more.

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Maybe, losing player should get VS points for each prize the OPPONENT takes. 

 

This would just encourage people to build decks full of 30-50 HP Pokemon to grind the ladder rewards.

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This would just encourage people to build decks full of 30-50 HP Pokemon to grind the ladder rewards.

Let them then.

 

 

 

Does that hurt anyone at all? It would still take a VERY long time to get 2000 that way (over 300 games). It is much better to actually go for winstreaks.

 

But if someone wants to get the prize that way, then let them. Who does it hurt?

Edited by MysterQ
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Let them then.

 

 

 

Does that hurt anyone at all? It would still take a VERY long time to get 2000 that way (over 300 games). It is much better to actually go for winstreaks.

 

But if someone wants to get the prize that way, then let them. Who does it hurt?

Are you just playing devils advocate here, you been complaining about how people are hitting 4k vs points with this current ladder and want ladder reset or bonus awards. Now you think people should get even more VS points? You complained about people conceding and have a hard time completing challenges but yet you posted how you concede when you see someone ultraball to lele to brigette.  Are you just trying to stir things up or just bored and posting random stuff on here.

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XK920XK, on 13 Nov 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

 

Are you just playing devils advocate here, you been complaining about how people are hitting 4k vs points with this current ladder and want ladder reset or bonus awards. Now you think people should get even more VS points? You complained about people conceding and have a hard time completing challenges but yet you posted how you concede when you see someone ultraball to lele to brigette. Are you just trying to stir things up or just bored and posting random stuff on here.

No, it is a legitimate starting suggestion.

 

YES, it is a problem that people have excess ladder points.

But, giving the losing player more points isn't going to have big impact at all. When I played, I was easily streaking 30points per win often... vs 6points for a loss. Those 6 points won't matter in the grand scheme of things (because people who get 2000 can get more than 2000 usually).

 

YES. Many people complain about opponents conceding and stopping knockout challenges. That is why it is a problem that needs a solution. Even I complained about it awhile back.

YES. I still (would) concede instantly. Because sadly it is better to concede and try to win than waste time on a losing game. But for some people, maybe they want to play out a losing game, so this is a potential solution. Maybe the game was close, but suddenly went downhill. They could concede instantly, or wait a minute and let the opponent get a KO so they get an extra vs point.

 

In my mind, it is a useless reward. But some people would like it. And it is trying to fix a problem. And again it is a starting point. Maybe not vs points, maybe add something else, etc. The point is I think rewarding the loser for the opponent taking prizes is the best direction to go. It doesn't matter if you spend 5 minutes in game, if you take 3 prizes yourself etc.

As for a *****. Who cares. Who is it hurting if it is abused a little? Again it is a very small prize anyways. And in the end, it lets the other player play out his game.

 

I appreciate that you remember my posts though lol. I don't play anymore, but I want to if the game (gave me Lele lol). But the forums HAVE resulted in some of my small suggestions being fixed. And I still have nothing else to do and don't mind giving feedback.

Edited by MysterQ
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Im not saying that what you wrote in wrong or anything, im just trying to figure what you are getting at.  Please keep in mind the game developers are human too and im sure have many things to get done.  If we as players throw out all these ideas and a lot of these ideas are counter intuitive it just makes things harder to get done.  I dont agree with everything thats been done but i do love that fact the developers have spent their time into improving the game over the course ive been here.  They cannot make everyone happy, Im sure what they are doing is for the general player base and not the few.

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Im not saying that what you wrote in wrong or anything, im just trying to figure what you are getting at.  Please keep in mind the game developers are human too and im sure have many things to get done.  If we as players throw out all these ideas and a lot of these ideas are counter intuitive it just makes things harder to get done.  I dont agree with everything thats been done but i do love that fact the developers have spent their time into improving the game over the course ive been here.  They cannot make everyone happy, Im sure what they are doing is for the general player base and not the few.

Right.

I am overall a fan of the developers. That is the only reason I continue to make suggestions. Even if the suggestion doesn't work, it is a starting point.

 

A Red, said he was concerned about people cheating with this. But I don't see the big deal with that.

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the big deal is that most games are centered around an "invest time to improve your kit" core

 

what you're suggesting allows a person to make an incredibly simple bot to just keep clicking end turn until they lose. What this does is:

 

a. completely ruin the progression of the game-

since nobody ends up missing any cards. Just imagine if you started out one of the pokemon video games with a mewtwo level 50. It's not everything, but the power you get stomping everything is bound to get boring. Even against actual players, the level of competitiveness stems out of the rewards gained. And if you freely give them that, what's the point of continuing the game?

 

b. ruin the spirit of the game-

this is supposed to mimic the irl pokemon trading card game and virtually be a testing grounds (along with a secondary function as an independent game)

 

promoting people conceding over a long time fulfills neither of the above functions

 

c. ruin the market value-

pokemon tcgo is a trading card game. A game which is built around buying some cards, and trading for the ones you want/need. By essentially giving out rewards to players who bot (not arguing why that's just wrong again) you're decreasing the demand for said cards drastically. This again removes the "collector" and "trader" aspect of the game- and from personal experience, i've seen that the collectors and the traders are the ones who normally stick around the longest.

 

don't get me wrong, challenges are important to finish. But they are what they're called. "challenges"

 

The devs don't need to spoonfeed people challenge prizes, and definitely not by giving out rewards to people who exploit the system

 

I'm not against the occasional free win, but come on, all of us know that if this was implemented unaltered, "the occasional free win" would be replaced by "the occasional good game"

Edited by awesome_guy
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the big deal is that most games are centered around an "invest time to improve your kit" core

 

 

 

what you're suggesting allows a person to make an incredibly simple bot to just keep clicking end turn until they lose. What this does is:

 

 

 

a. completely ruin the progression of the game-

 

since nobody ends up missing any cards. Just imagine if you started out one of the pokemon video games with a mewtwo level 50. It's not everything, but the power you get stomping everything is bound to get boring. Even against actual players, the level of competitiveness stems out of the rewards gained. And if you freely give them that, what's the point of continuing the game?

 

 

 

b. ruin the spirit of the game-

 

this is supposed to mimic the irl pokemon trading card game and virtually be a testing grounds (along with a secondary function as an independent game)

 

 

 

promoting people conceding over a long time fulfills neither of the above functions

 

 

 

c. ruin the market value-

 

pokemon tcgo is a trading card game. A game which is built around buying some cards, and trading for the ones you want/need. By essentially giving out rewards to players who bot (not arguing why that's just wrong again) you're decreasing the demand for said cards drastically. This again removes the "collector" and "trader" aspect of the game- and from personal experience, i've seen that the collectors and the traders are the ones who normally stick around the longest.

 

 

 

don't get me wrong, challenges are important to finish. But they are what they're called. "challenges"

 

 

 

The devs don't need to spoonfeed people challenge prizes, and definitely not by giving out rewards to people who exploit the system

 

 

 

I'm not against the occasional free win, but come on, all of us know that if this was implemented unaltered, "the occasional free win" would be replaced by "the occasional good game"

Ohhh I love this.

 

 

 

Do normal players know how to make bots? Even if incredibly simple, I would say many people would not do this. You are right SOME people would ***** this. That might? be bad. But the normal player base would not ***** this. And if anything, as a normal player I would not be upset vs an occasional free win.

 

Find a system to catch the bots, not the players who play fairly.

 

 

 

It does not! ruin progression of the game.

 

Every card?!? I WISH, I WISH. Seriously at best they get 2000 ladder points, which gives like 12 packs and that is every 21 days. They are not going to suddenly unlock everything.

 

But you are right, someone who uses this, might not have fun clearing out the ladder (if anyone finds it fun after the first few runs).

 

 

 

HA! HA!

 

Bored of having every card in the game? Of having a competitive deck? Talk to any player at a high ELO. Why do you think they continue to play the game despite having every card? You cant even play the game until you get cards.

 

If anything it feels terrible to get stomped by a meta deck when you have a pile of bad cards.

 

You are right, some people may get bored of playing Garde.... well if they have every card they can play a fun GX deck next.... then maybe test Salazzle.... then back to Garde. But for some reason you have more fun losing??

 

 

 

I will admit. It is fun "cracking' packs and progressing your collection that way. Except not if there is never any progress made. It just becomes pointless.

 

 

 

Virtual testing ground.... YES. So give people more access to cards, and let them get intense testing in. Do you think the low people can actually test anything.

 

 

 

Who cares about this secondary trade market?

 

One, I have already showed that this method isn't going to massively increase cards. Heck any prize is still tradelocked.

 

Players can still collect. They can still trade, but maybe they won't need to setup these "trading companies." Trade X card for X card instead of X card for 20packs.

 

Also, if you are so concerned about a secondary market (that ptcgo does not profit from), they still have ridiculous 100+pack costumes, rare promo cards, rare boxes. Additionally, if new players only get access to standard card, then old players actually get MORE value for staying longer because now they have out of print cards to trade ****** they get on the ladder prize).

 

 

 

It is not meant to be a challenge because people concede. I am glad you at least tried to argue real points instead of this.

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i admit the game can be quite stifling to a newcomer, but that's only if you don't go through the proper steps. The game's elo system is pretty good so unless you're skipping some steps here and there- skipping theme battles or actually switching from a better to a worse deck, you shouldn't be stomped.

 

also, i'm not sure if you were there during the shiftry meta? if you were you'd know just how many bots were running around. The numbers i'd counted were in the hundreds (and that's just the players in a close enough elo range in a certain period of the day)

 

i do have arguments against the rest of your points, but i think we're viewing this from opposite ends of the spectrum. You made some pretty valid sounding points, but from where i am (3.5 years of gameplay) i'm not sure i can agree with your views or even explain my views on this to you. If you do wish to continue, i'll go ahead, but it'll be long, and probably very boring :P

 

i wouldn't mind agreeing to disagree for the moment though

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i admit the game can be quite stifling to a newcomer, but that's only if you don't go through the proper steps. The game's elo system is pretty good so unless you're skipping some steps here and there- skipping theme battles or actually switching from a better to a worse deck, you shouldn't be stomped.

 

also, i'm not sure if you were there during the shiftry meta? if you were you'd know just how many bots were running around. The numbers i'd counted were in the hundreds (and that's just the players in a close enough elo range in a certain period of the day)

 

i do have arguments against the rest of your points, but i think we're viewing this from opposite ends of the spectrum. You made some pretty valid sounding points, but from where i am (3.5 years of gameplay) i'm not sure i can agree with your views or even explain my views on this to you. If you do wish to continue, i'll go ahead, but it'll be long, and probably very boring :P

 

i wouldn't mind agreeing to disagree for the moment though

I agree, no solution is perfect. This idea just came up randomly while I was answering another thread, and I really liked the direction it was going.

 

I think it is better for the fair players to support them. Then we can find ways to fix cheaters, rather than letting fair players have a bad experience. Not that it is terrible right now, but I think things could improve. I think coming into discussions worrying about cheaters (while valid) is just a copout way to end all discussions of improvement.

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Bots pretty much destroyed the Legacy format for months and your idea would literally kill every format, dramatically speaking.

 

The biggest problem with your suggestion (even though the intention is good, like most of your input) is that you simply fail to view the bigger picture. Take a step outside of your own environment and try to figure out if your idea benefits everyone, or just a specific audience. After that, try to figure out if there is a way to ***** that system ( and you can trust the older users on this: every time a game mechanic was broken, players used it to their own advantage: 2 minute instant concede, Combee self kill, genting, botting, the list goes on and on).

 

After careful consideration you hopefully realize that your idea would tackle a rather small problem of the game (you don't have to complete KO challenges in a single day, after getting to a level where you can store challenges and honestly no one forces you to do them at all), while simultaneously create a system that is opt to create a new bread of bots, spammers and stallers, who'd try to use the system to their advantage.

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To be honest, I have seen quite of your posts and responses and I have to say that I question your intention of your threads, sorry. I can see you are quite mad about the game, which I am too but in different aspects, but are you geniunely trying to solve the problem or just randomly posting things without any thinking. 

 

I understand that it might be hard to start off. I have mentioned in my other threads that many features on the PTCGO feeds the rich but isolates the poor. However, nothing can be perfect and we have to consider other aspects to prevent trade-offs. 

 

Your intention is good, but maybe its better to come up with other solutions that take account of other aspects.

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To be honest, I have seen quite of your posts and responses and I have to say that I question your intention of your threads, sorry. I can see you are quite mad about the game, which I am too but in different aspects, but are you geniunely trying to solve the problem or just randomly posting things without any thinking. 

 

I understand that it might be hard to start off. I have mentioned in my other threads that many features on the PTCGO feeds the rich but isolates the poor. However, nothing can be perfect and we have to consider other aspects to prevent trade-offs. 

 

Your intention is good, but maybe its better to come up with other solutions that take account of other aspects.

That is why we post on boards. Boards are designed to discuss and refine ideas.

 

i can appreciate people's feedback in this thread as well. I will say I do not like using "cheating as an argument because mostly it shuts down all discussion without opening new ideas (ways to fix things and limit cheating), but in this case some of the concerns may be valid. 

But again, rather than just say people would cheat, I would hope we could figure out ways to limit cheating rather than shut down discussion.

 

Edit: and not mad at the game. bored of the game.

mad at the userbase on the forums. and no shame in admitting it.

Edited by MysterQ
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