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Looking for a Standard T1 Deck to Use


M_Red_DragonO1

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samuraison

What's a bacon bird? XD Very odd slang names for a TCG

Yveltal. Its underside looks like a piece of bacon and now you can't unsee it.

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SO my T1 M Mewtwo Y/Garbodor Deck ran out of gas and just kept losing, even to **** decks. So i am wondering of what other standard T1 decks that are out there that wins games like mine used to? Bad e

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M_Red_DragonO1

Yveltal. Its underside looks like a piece of bacon and now you can't unsee it.

I don't see how Yveltal can be better than M Mewtwo Y. Used to run one back in the first XY series way before M Mewtwo was around. It was good back then

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samuraison

I don't see how Yveltal can be better than M Mewtwo Y. Used to run one back in the first XY series way before M Mewtwo was around. It was good back then

See my quote above (#24) and you'll understand why. Yveltal can also run Garb or its baby form as support.

Edited by samuraison
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samuraison

I perfer garbodor

Are you reading what I write? Garb = garbodor.

 

Have fun finding this T0 deck because you don't want to change decks. You want us to make Mewtwo better.

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Bacon bird won some tourneys recently and really benefited from the rotation more than Mewtwo.

1) No tool removal means bacon bird has as much HP as Bluetwo with ffb which can't be removed.

2) doesn't require evolving so no spirit link.

3) doesn't require a stadium to do his attacks so you can run delinquent

4) if bacon bird gets in trouble, it can move energy with his 2nd attack

5) all his old checks ( mega Man, dendene) rotated out. Lightning decks are the new grass deck.

All of this plus bacon bird being on the ladder a while ago and the promo version made him easy to get. That's why you see him more now

Yes but that doesn't explain why if I switch back to lucario then the roles reverse again and mewtwo is back to mr popular while bacon bird is back to billy no mates lol. The game definitely matches you against your nemesis deck when you start winning too often. Unless of course I have really bad luck and only play decks on the days their number one nemesis is getting a lot of game time ( I don't think it's this answer).

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Sakura150612

Yes but that doesn't explain why if I switch back to lucario then the roles reverse again and mewtwo is back to mr popular while bacon bird is back to billy no mates lol. The game definitely matches you against your nemesis deck when you start winning too often. Unless of course I have really bad luck and only play decks on the days their number one nemesis is getting a lot of game time ( I don't think it's this answer).

 

It never ceases to amaze me how people continue to fall for the same trappings over and over again. This, my friend, is what we call "confirmation bias", and it's the #1 source (with the gambler's fallacy being a close second) of salty qq threads in this forum.

 

When you play a couple hundreds of games with a deck, record the matchup and the outcome for each one, and you can tell me with a 99% degree of certainty that you're getting bad matchups for no apparent reason (if your nemesis just so happens to be a popular deck then the explanation is a simple as there being more people who play that than decks that would have an even matchup with you), then you cannot prove that the system is rigged.

 

For starters, that doesn't make a lick of sense. Why would anyone set up the game to match you with counter decks all the time? There's literally no reason for that. Second, it's not possible for the game to set up things so that everyone gets to play against a counter, because obviously one of the 2 players must be the one countering the other, so your opponent is getting easy matchups for no apparent reason.

 

I do not understand why people keep spreading these stupid rumors. It's been proved by experience several times over that the only deciding factor in matchmaking is your MMR. Your deck, the deck of your opponent, your w/l ratio for that particular decks, none of them mater.

 

How about we start trying to make sense here? These discussion go absolutely nowhere, because while you guys are walking around in circles trying to fight a phantom the game continues to work as intended and no one will do anything to fix it, because there's nothing to fix in the first place.

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ChrisElPirate

Everything about this subject screams, "I used to play Night March because it won all the time and can't find anything that good ever since it rotated out". Trading Card Games by nature try to avoid making cards that can be put together in such a way that they create a deck that beats absolutely every thing. Decks that are that powerful (like Night March) are typically a result of an oversight when constructing new cards for new sets.

 

Personally, I don't ***** lot of stock in what is considered "tier 1" and what isn't. Some of the decks I've had the most success with are basic upgrades of Theme decks. In fact, I personally have a lot more success playing my upgraded Sky Guardian deck that my Rainbow Road deck.

 

I like to look at deck building as an experimental process, try new and crazy things. Who knows, maybe you'll be the one to stumble across the new "tier 1" deck. After all, popular archetypes and deck lists don't just materialize out of nowhere, someone has to be the innovator.

 

"Adopt what is useful, discard what is not, and add what is uniquely your own."

 

- Bruce Lee

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It never ceases to amaze me how people continue to fall for the same trappings over and over again. This, my friend, is what we call "confirmation bias", and it's the #1 source (with the gambler's fallacy being a close second) of salty qq threads in this forum.

 

When you play a couple hundreds of games with a deck, record the matchup and the outcome for each one, and you can tell me with a 99% degree of certainty that you're getting bad matchups for no apparent reason (if your nemesis just so happens to be a popular deck then the explanation is a simple as there being more people who play that than decks that would have an even matchup with you), then you cannot prove that the system is rigged.

 

For starters, that doesn't make a lick of sense. Why would anyone set up the game to match you with counter decks all the time? There's literally no reason for that. Second, it's not possible for the game to set up things so that everyone gets to play against a counter, because obviously one of the 2 players must be the one countering the other, so your opponent is getting easy matchups for no apparent reason.

 

I do not understand why people keep spreading these stupid rumors. It's been proved by experience several times over that the only deciding factor in matchmaking is your MMR. Your deck, the deck of your opponent, your w/l ratio for that particular decks, none of them mater.

 

How about we start trying to make sense here? These discussion go absolutely nowhere, because while you guys are walking around in circles trying to fight a phantom the game continues to work as intended and no one will do anything to fix it, because there's nothing to fix in the first place.

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I've played this game a lot over the last few months and like I say when I play one deck (doesn't matter which) you tend to see a lot more of the deck that best counters it. I'm on the last prize or two on the verses list as well as playing regular tournements, (several 24 ticket wins and many 8 ticket wins over last few weeks). I'm by no means upset about not having enough wins, as I say I tend to win about 70% of matches with various decks, I have greninja and talonflame, lucario-ex, trevenant break, garchomp decks ect and I only started played several months ago so that's testimony to how much I've played (haven't spent a penny), I also own every theme deck that's been available over that time (lots) and the exact same thing happens in theme. You play water, boom every other match is grass. You play fire, boom water etc. It happens in all the verses modes.

 

What I find really funny is that I seem to win far more during tournaments when the matchmaking isn't throwing you lemons than I do in verses. I smashed a yveltal/darkrai deck in the final of an eight ticket tournament with trevenant just this morning (not bragging as I lose to this deck more often than win). My point is the matchmaking throws you lemons. That's my belief, I didn't ask you to believe it just stating what I believe. If you think the game isn't sometimes weighed against you then that's fine but personally from the trends I see I think that it is. Again I'm not saying it's a fact just what I see.

Edited by Millard4
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samuraison

I've played this game a lot over the last few months and like I say when I play one deck (doesn't matter which) you tend to see a lot more of the deck that best counters it. I'm on the last prize or two on the verses list as well as playing regular tournements, (several 24 ticket wins and many 8 ticket wins over last few weeks). I'm by no means upset about not having enough wins, as I say I tend to win about 70% of matches with various decks, I have greninja and talonflame, lucario-ex, trevenant break, garchomp decks ect and I only started played several months ago so that's testimony to how much I've played (haven't spent a penny), I also own every theme deck that's been available over that time (lots) and the exact same thing happens in theme. You play water, boom every other match is grass. You play fire, boom water etc. It happens in all the verses modes.

What I find really funny is that I seem to win far more during tournaments when the matchmaking isn't throwing you lemons than I do in verses. I smashed a yveltal/darkrai deck in the final of an eight ticket tournament with trevenant just this morning (not bragging as I lose to this deck more often than win). My point is the matchmaking throws you lemons. That's my belief, I didn't ask you to believe it just stating what I believe. If you think the game isn't sometimes weighed against you then that's fine but personally from the trends I see I think that it is. Again I'm not saying it's a fact just what I see.

The thing is until we (the players) get word from them (mods, programmers) that they match decks like that on purpose, we have no proof. When everyone was playing crushing current in theme, the main counter are, you guessed it, water and lightning decks.

 

Your 10 or so matches a day ain't enough to say that this absolutely is programmed in. Just know that for every person playing a tier 1 deck, there's someone who built a counter to that tier 1 deck.

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Felidae_

To lazy to quote so:

 

@Sakura: Guess I'll have to write it then ;)

 

@Dragon: I'd have to agree with you: the official sites are quite slow in updating tournament results / top 8 deck lists, hence I'd advise you to check out other sites, not sanctioned by TPCI, i.e. 60 cards (where I write from time to time, insert free advertisement here), pokebeach, thecharizardlongue, sixprizes and so forth.

 

@Millard: I'd kindly advise you to check out this thread: http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/49046-the-elo-matchmaking-system/ I thing it will clear some things up, regarding difference in tournament vs. ladder play, match making and other issues.

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SandaledOtter

What I find really funny is that I seem to win far more during tournaments when the matchmaking isn't throwing you lemons than I do in verses.

 

There is no matchmaking in tournaments. In versus there is, so you go against people at your level. So that only means you're running into worse players in tourneys.

 

In the past 3 days I've played 49 vs matches, and my darkness-weak deck has faced darkness decks 7 times. Mostly because Yvaltal is hot right now, though one of them was an imaginative deck that used pokemon that change to dark/dual dark types when they evolve.

 

That's just two times more than would have happened if they were as evenly split as they could be. While there was a cluster of them that made me walk away for a few hours, there's nothing indicating anything other than chance. I'm just as likely to face Greninja, Mewtwo, Delphox, Ariados/Rat, or Gardevoir.

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Today I decided to play 40 matches, 20 with trevenant break and 20 with lucario-ex to see if I could identify any trends in the opponent's faced while playing with each deck and to analyse a small snapshot of other data such as win% and coin tosses etc. Here's what I found.

 

Overall - 40 matches

 

Called coin toss - 22

Won coin toss - 17

Lost coin toss - 23

Won match - 26

Lost match - 14

Win % - 65%

 

Trevenant - 20 matches

Called coin toss - 10

Won coin toss - 9

Won match - 15

Win % - 75%

Most frequent opponent - Yveltal, Night march ( 3 times each)

 

Lucario-ex - 20 matches

Called coin toss - 12

Won coin toss - 8

Won - 11

Win % - 55%

Most frequent opponent - Garchomp, Night march (3 times each)

 

Prizes awarded

Match 4, win number 1 - 110 coins

Match 5, win number 2 - 55 coins

Match 7, win number 4 - 55 coins

Match 9, win number 5 - 55 coins

Match 13, win number 9 - 55 coins

Match 14, win number 10 - 55 coins

Match 17, win number 13 - 1 ticket

Match 18, win number 14 - 110 coins

Match 28, win number 20, 55 coins

One prize box unclaimed on wheel after 40 matches and 26wins.

 

As you can see when I played Trevenant I came up against a deck it frequently loses against 3 times in 20 matches. When I switched to lucario-ex all of a sudden the most frequent opponent is Garchomp another deck which frequently beats lucario-ex in that match up.

 

Of course this is a small sample size and you will say this is coincidence but it's not uncommon for me to play around 40 matches a day and this is a common trend I see. If you feel otherwise then I'm ok with that but from the games I play I feel there are trends that you will see if you played often enough.

Edited by Millard4
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ahoodedman

This has turned from a harmless post about wanting to know some top tier decks to a flame war?!

[we do not need to fight over helping someone]

Edited by ahoodedman
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samuraison

Today I decided to play 40 matches, 20 with trevenant break and 20 with lucario-ex to see if I could identify any trends in the opponent's faced while playing with each deck and to analyse a small snapshot of other data such as win% and coin tosses etc. Here's what I found.

Overall - 40 matches

Called coin toss - 22

Won coin toss - 17

Lost coin toss - 23

Won match - 26

Lost match - 14

Win % - 65%

Trevenant - 20 matches

Called coin toss - 10

Won coin toss - 9

Won match - 15

Win % - 75%

Most frequent opponent - Yveltal, Night march ( 3 times each)

Lucario-ex - 20 matches

Called coin toss - 12

Won coin toss - 8

Won - 11

Win % - 55%

Most frequent opponent - Garchomp, Night march (3 times each)

Prizes awarded

Match 4, win number 1 - 110 coins

Match 5, win number 2 - 55 coins

Match 7, win number 4 - 55 coins

Match 9, win number 5 - 55 coins

Match 13, win number 9 - 55 coins

Match 14, win number 10 - 55 coins

Match 17, win number 13 - 1 ticket

Match 18, win number 14 - 110 coins

Match 28, win number 20, 55 coins

One prize box unclaimed on wheel after 40 matches and 26wins.

As you can see when I played Trevenant I came up against a deck it frequently loses against 3 times in 20 matches. When I switched to lucario-ex all of a sudden the most frequent opponent is Garchomp another deck which frequently beats lucario-ex in that match up.

Of course this is a small sample size and you will say this is coincidence but it's not uncommon for me to play around 40 matches a day and this is a common trend I see. If you feel otherwise then I'm ok with that but from the games I play I feel there are trends that you will see if you played often enough.

And how many of the matches did you have advantage over your opponent? Because now you're implying that there is code that searches for current meta decks and specifically matches you against those decks.

 

You gotta realize that people are gonna build decks to counter top decks (trev, ex decks, night match). 40 is way too small a sample size and 3/40 is almost nothing for popular decks like garchomp, yveltal, and NM.

 

See what you want but you're not gonna prove anything with those stats.

Edited by samuraison
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Sakura150612

I will concede you 2 things: First, that you actually took the time to gather data to try to prove your point. Most people who I tell that either insist that their gut feeling is right or just back out altoghether. Second, for trying to be reasonable about proving your point. I may not agree but this allows to discuss peoperly instead of leting the conversation degrade into a flamewar. Lately a lot of discussion have ended like that, so I commend you for both of these things.

 

Regarding the data, it is generally considered that the magic number for a valid sample size is 30 or above. Keep in mind, however, that this is a convention for sampling techniques in general, so depending on what we're sampling the ideal minimum could be more. Also keep in mind that this applies to a sampling where no variables were changed, meaning that ideally you'd want to do 30 games per deck as a minimum. Besides that, the larger the sample size the more reliable it is.

 

Here's a challenge (and this really is a challenge, so don't feel like I'm placing you an impossible condition to prove your point because I know this is unrealistic): play 100 games with each deck and record the matchup. The outcome of the game is not too important (in fact you could concede as soon as you can confirm what your opponent is using. Not sure if that could tank your MMR though so maybe it's not that great of an idea). Ideally you want to do this in a short span of time because the decks people use also vary with time.

 

I'll see if I can gather some data of my own and show you what I've got.

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Just played 20 more Trev matches and matched against yveltal/darkrai 7 times! Lucario-ex next 20 should be interesting lol (oh I lost every matchup against them to).

Edited by Millard4
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SandaledOtter

Just played 20 more Trev matches and matched against yveltal/darkrai 7 times! Lucario-ex next 20 should be interesting lol (oh I lost every matchup against them to).

 

Yes, you would likely lose that matchup. I've only beaten Yvaltal a couple times with standard Trev.

 

In 40 Trev matches, what were all the other decks you faced though?

 

No one is going to believe the game has an AI advanced enough to

 

1. analyze the decks of everyone in the Versus queue,

2. find the people playing the current metas, and

3. give them easy matches to force everyone else to use tier 1 decks

 

when they don't even have an AI capable of attacking using a card when some of its damage will be prevented.

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Sakura150612

Yes, you would likely lose that matchup. I've only beaten Yvaltal a couple times with standard Trev.

 

In 40 Trev matches, what were all the other decks you faced though?

 

No one is going to believe the game has an AI advanced enough to

 

1. analyze the decks of everyone in the Versus queue,

2. find the people playing the current metas, and

3. give them easy matches to force everyone else to use tier 1 decks

 

when they don't even have an AI capable of attacking using a card when some of its damage will be prevented.

 

Lol... you do have to admit that the AI is pretty garbage. They've been trying to tune it for ages but it still makes really questionable decisions sometimes.

 

MMR is a little different because it has an algorithm that calculates your skill in at least a semi-objective way and matches you with someone of a similar skill level. Like SandaledOtter said, the AI just isn't smart enough to do this on purpose.

 

Anyway, I will try to see if I can gather some data. Thus far I'm getting pretty varied matchups but I still have only like a third of the minimum I'd need for a valid sample data. In case you're curious, I was playing with Night March and my matchups were:

 

1) M Gallade / Bats

2) Lando/Bats

3) Night March

4) Night March

5) Lando/Bats

6) Toad/Tina

7) Spirit Scream Gourgeist / Yanmega

8) Alakazam EX / Gengar EX / Talonflame

9) M Gardevoir/Xerneas

10) M Mewtwo Y / Zoroark Support

11) Trevenant

12) Greninja BREAK

 

Not enough data yet but I'll keep collecting.

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20 trevenant matches.

 

Called coin toss - 12

Won coin toss - 12

Won match - 8

Won% - 40%

Most frequent opponent - Yveltal/darkrai (7 times)

 

20 Lucario-ex matches

 

Called coin toss - 8

Won coin toss - 11

Won match - 9

Won% - 45%

Most frequent opponent - zyguarde, siesmitoad, mewtwo, keldeo (each twice, lost every one)

 

Interesting tidbit - over 40 matches with trevenant faced off against yveltal/darkrai 10 times but only saw it three times with lucario-ex.

Edited by Millard4
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