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The Real Rant (S01E05: Toxicity)


The_Real_Bug

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Dear fellow PTCGO players,

i am The_Real_Bug and i have a lot of things that i want to get off my chest.

Without any further delay, i present to you:

 

The Real Rant

Host: The_Real_Bug

Season 1 - Episode 5: Toxicity

 

I dare to say that this episode of The Real Rant will be the most controversial so far.

 

Controversy equals views.

 

Also, i dare to say this episode of The Real Rant will be the most bitter so far and will likely put me into a lot of trouble.

 

But i do not care anymore.

 

The more time someone will spend within the PTCGO forums, the more things will realize about what is really going on around here.

 

"What are you talking about?"

 

I am talking about the toxicity within PTCGO community that will only unveil if you really pay attention.

 

"But who do you mean?"

 

Oh my, this is really going to be a long one and will really make a lot of people mad.

 

Do i have everybody's attention now?

 

Forums are supposed to be a public platform where players are able to express their opinion freely and interact with other players.

 

Right?

 

But what happens when a large amount of players engage into bashing someone's opinion just because it is not the popular one?

 

You get bashed endlessly.

 

Because as long as that large amount of players responds according to the forums' rules, then you are a prey for the lone wolves and that one platform-based-expert-illuminati-wolf pack.

 

Only because you tend to differ.

 

You do no have to insult someone so you can be called toxic.

Bashing someone's opinion, especially without having any real argument, is being toxic.

Joining the horde to troll a thread, is being toxic.

Trying to prove someone is wrong by showing off, is being toxic.

Locking threads without showing tolerance to players' dissatisfaction about something, is being toxic.

 

Ouch.

 

Before you bash someone without having any real argument, think about if you ever felt the way the one you bash feels.

Before you join a horde to troll a thread, think about the day you will be in that player's position.

Before you try to prove someone is wrong by showing off, think about what kind of insecurities you are trying to hide.

Before you lock threads without showing tolerance to players' dissatisfaction about something, try calming the crowd with some official statement.

 

Is it that hard to do so?

 

I am really tired of seeing players being pushed to the corner, one way or another.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and should not be afraid to express it within the forums.

I think that is something that we all can agree with.

 

I hope.

 

Before anyone will say something "funny", let me clarify something.

I am not ranting because i want to look cool.

I am not spending 2 hours of my life to self promote.

I am not trying to make the world a better place.

 

I am simply expressing my opinion.

 

Let us not become another toxic community without understanding.

Either you are a simple member or an authority figure of this community, take a moment and think everything that i wrote tonight.

 

OK?

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snip

That's the least controversial mean-spirited of all RealRants so far!  There isn't a single thing I disagree with, and it wasn't even too harshly written! +1!  Of course, you were a little lacking on evidence- I agree, but it's better to be able to back yourself up- but overall, very good. :) 

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That's the least controversial mean-spirited of all RealRants so far!  There isn't a single thing I disagree with, and it wasn't even too harshly written! +1!  Of course, you were a little lacking on evidence- I agree, but it's better to be able to back yourself up- but overall, very good. :) 

Trust me, there are a lot of things I excluded because I didn't want to shame anyone.

I believe the ones I targeted will get the message.

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Hmm, I have a lot to say on this topic, but I'll start by saying I agree with you for the most part. I'll address this point by point so that we can see where we stand on this issue and what we believe can be done to help deal with it.
 

Dear fellow PTCGO players,

i am The_Real_Bug and i have a lot of things that i want to get off my chest.

Without any further delay, i present to you:
 

The Real Rant

Host: The_Real_Bug

Season 1 - Episode 5: Toxicity


I dare to say that this episode of The Real Rant will be the most controversial so far.


Controversy equals views.


Also, i dare to say this episode of The Real Rant will be the most bitter so far and will likely put me into a lot of trouble.


But i do not care anymore.



The more time someone will spend within the PTCGO forums, the more things will realize about what is really going on around here.


"What are you talking about?"



I am talking about the toxicity within PTCGO community that will only unveil if you really pay attention.



"But who do you mean?"



Oh my, this is really going to be a long one and will really make a lot of people mad.


Do i have everybody's attention now?



Forums are supposed to be a public platform where players are able to express their opinion freely and interact with other players.

Right?



But what happens when a large amount of players engage into bashing someone's opinion just because it is not the popular one?

You get bashed endlessly.


Because as long as that large amount of players responds according to the forums' rules, then you are a prey for the lone wolves and that one platform-based-expert-illuminati-wolf pack.

 

Although I just said I agreed with most of your points, this is probably one of the 2 where my opinión differs somewhat. It is true that these things happen and that we should not just accept them. What's fair is fair, and a well made point should be respected, even if not shared, by everyone.

From the recent time, the first one that comes to mind is the thread that Super made on the variable pack value thing. Some of the first few responses were rude without any provocation. Ideally no one should be rude regardless of the situation, but I can understand violence inciting more violence. But no, there wasn't anything in the original post that justified saying "we should troll this thread", and saying "no you're wrong" period falls flat without any arguments to back it up. I think that after a few posts we managed to keep the discussion reasonable and focused, but this would be an example of people just bashing for the sake of bashing.

However, if you look at this example, you'll see that we didn't all bash him for having a different opinion. Most of us disagreed, but most of us did so respectfully and attempting to provide an argument rather than just because. So in this regard, I don't think that we, the users, are that intolerant of different opinions.

Another example that probably exemplifies your scenario better, this: http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/48008-penalty-for-quitting-in-a-match/

Now, I can't deny my involvement here. While I do think I provide substance in my arguments (most of the time at least), I wasn't exactly kind to OP. He hasn't logged on again as of the making of that thread; I wouldn't be surprised if we drove him off the forums with our overwhemingly negative reception (you don't see posts with -16 rep and a ton of negative comments very often; jokes aside, I don't even remember Xensor ever having so much negativity focused on a single post). Pretty much the only ones who didn't ride into the mockery train were Oldschool (I don't like that you called us inmature, but fair enough, props to you for standing up for the guy when we were all about to grab our torches and pitchforks, and I respect that) and Shirahia.

As I explained in the post I made today though, I think that we aren't the only ones that need to change our type of responses. OP was entitled to his own opinion in the matter, and after giving it a second thought he might have had a point to make when he suggested a penalty for quitters. The problem was not with the message itself but rather that it was really poorly worded. In the time this forum and community has existed we've heard SO many rants (not like this one, but actual rants, as in people rambling and blaming all their misery on others and overall just spewing salt everywhere), that by this point we're pretty apathetic towards them and those who make them. After all, it's just another guy rambling that nothing goes his way. Who cares, right? Well, that's not entirely correct, and despite what I may say as an instant reaction to said threads I really do know as much.

Here's the thing, however. If we want this community to become healthier and more friendly, it's on ALL of us to make it so. The exact same thing that OP posted can also be said like Shirahia did. Had OP calmed down a bit before posting, gave actual arguments as to why quitters' unsportmanlike behaviour should be kept in check and why he believed a penalty, even if small, was necessary, even though his opinion is vastly different from what the general consensus is in this forum he would have probably received a positive response. Of course, I'm just speculating. I can't tell what the outcome would have been in this hypothetical scenario. But for my part at least, I can guarantee you that I would have talked this out with him (like I did with Super in his thread) instead of making him look like a clown.

Another example: http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/48201-list-of-cards-that-ruins-all-the-fun/

Another post that got a vastly negative response. Now, in hindsight my sass was probably unecesary, but it can't be denied that OP is complaining about things that are objectively not overpowered. Some of the cards he mentioned are very strong and I can see how they could cause frustration, but even then those alone don't ruin the fun of the game, and most of the ones he mentioned are not even strong at all (like Wild Blaze M Charizard.

What I want to exemplify with this one is a few things:

  • It's important to inform oneself before posting. Everyone has to start at a new player, so most of us can relate to finding certain things as being overpowered that we then realized that weren't, but with enough experience, including listening to the advise of other players, we learn what really is game breaking and what is reasonably strong.
  • People need to keep an open mind, specially when they don't know much. OP stubbornly insisted that all the mechanics he mentioned are overpowered and unspeakably unfair. This has the same issue as the previous example: we've seen so many of those that we're barely amused by it anymore and instead make fun of it. Is that the correct answer? Probably not, but if he were willing to listen the conversation would have drifted on a different direction. I've seen noobs before who come here to complain right of the bat that X is op, then they get told otherwise by a few people, and instead of insisting on them being right they recognize they still have much to learn and ask for more advise. In my experience, those threads always end up positively. Old example, but still valid: http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/39752-cards-overpowered-for-standard-by-a-noob/?hl=%2Bbalance+%2Bcriteria&do=findComment&comment=456827. Had OP instead taken an attitude similar to the one in this thread, the conversation would have been MUCH different, without any need for negativity on anyone's part.
  • There's no need for us to be mean. I'm very much guilty of this one; when I don't take a liking to someone I'm a complete ***. This much is a mistake on my part. But without denying that responsability, it is still true that people who complain must do so reasonably if they desire to be heard.

So as a final example I'll put one last thing just to show I'm not that biased on this issue: http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/48322-where-to-report-a-scammer/

If you scrap down my 3 points to the information alone and leave out the insults, they are still technically true. However, this is a very good example of me being ****** for the sake of being one alone, and I probably owe OP an apology if he shows up again. I take it this is exactly the kind of thing you're criticizing, and I'll agree that the **** I said was completely uncalled for. I could have just as well told him the information he needed without being mean, so now there I'm the one doing the same thing I just criticized in my second example. After I finish writing this I'll go back to that thread and edit in an apology. I'll try my best to not be a complete **** just because, although like everyone else I can make mistakes so it might happen again. I can only promise to try, and guarantee to make amends when I'm in the wrong.

I'm sure there are more examples, but I think I got my point across. Unpopular opinions are more likely to get toxic responses, but a reasonable unpopular opinion will still get a largely respectful response even if people still don't agree.
 

You do no have to insult someone so you can be called toxic.

Bashing someone's opinion, especially without having any real argument, is being toxic.

Joining the horde to troll a thread, is being toxic.

Trying to prove someone is wrong by showing off, is being toxic.

Locking threads without showing tolerance to players' dissatisfaction about something, is being toxic.

 

Ouch.



Before you bash someone without having any real argument, think about if you ever felt the way the one you bash feels.

Before you join a horde to troll a thread, think about the day you will be in that player's position.

Before you try to prove someone is wrong by showing off, think about what kind of insecurities you are trying to hide.

Before you lock threads without showing tolerance to players' dissatisfaction about something, try calming the crowd with some official statement.



Is it that hard to do so?



I am really tired of seeing players being pushed to the corner, one way or another.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and should not be afraid to express it within the forums.

I think that is something that we all can agree with.



I hope.



Before anyone will say something "funny", let me clarify something.

I am not ranting because i want to look cool.

I am not spending 2 hours of my life to self promote.

I am not trying to make the world a better place.



I am simply expressing my opinion.



Let us not become another toxic community without understanding.

Either you are a simple member or an authority figure of this community, take a moment and think everything that i wrote tonight.



OK?

 

 

I'll have to keep the second part short because I'm running out of time here (I need to go), but I'll just say two things about this one.

1) People are entitled to their own opinion, yes. However, people are not entitled to express such opinion in whichever fashion they see fit. Freedom of speech is not a universal value, or at the very least, the interpretation of this value/right is not universal. Even in the USA, the champions on freedom of speech and freedom in general, the first amendment does not equate to complete and absolute freedom on how you can express yourself. For the most part anything is valid, but there do exist boundaries and lines that simply cannot be crossed, as well as a plethora of gray cases where it varies a lot whether a particular expression is considered valid or not. To keep this short I'll just give an extreme example of each and make a parallel to the situation of our forum. No one can deny that simply saying your opinion, verbally, respecfuly, although not necesarilly well argumented, is completely valid. If I say "I don't like candidate X" everyone will undoubtedly consider it as a valid and legal opinion, even if unpopular. A borderline scenario: burning the national flag as an expression of dissaproval. This has been taken to court a few times; sometimes the flag burner wins, sometimes the state wins. This is because this is a very much inflamatory (no pun intended) form of expression, and whether it's valid or a needless instigation of violence is up to debate. Completely illegal: destroying a public monument as a sign of dissaproval. It doesn't sound much different from flag burning, but this one has the added aggravant of being destruction of public property.

So what does this have anything to do with our forum? Well, some of the things people say can be paralled to this. For example, I'd classify Super's thread on the TCs as "completely valid". Popular or not, it was polite and well argumented, and for the most part it got a polite response. Example number two would be "gray area", because we're all sick of qq threads and he didn't really help himself to be listened, but otherwise his form didn't particularly warrant such a negative response. Completely illegal; can't think of one right now because most of the ones who fall here get insta-deleted by the mods xd but I guess that's the system working as intended.

2) I completely agree with the closing down threads thing. I don't like it that legit threads are being closed without a solid reason. However, because of their massive lack of transperency (and this one really is 100% their fault, sorry PTCGO staff), we'll never know how much of the thread closing is a higher-up forcing them to do it (as far as I know, mods are not involved in taking executive decisions) and how much of it is them making plain out bad choices. So for the time being I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but I do hope the staff eventually decides to be more transparent with us.

 

EDIT: I came back but I can't be bothered to keep writing right now xd I'll stick around to see how this discussion develops and add more things as the chance arises. I think this is a very interesting topic and I'm glad you brought it up. Toxicity among the players is very much a real issue, and I think that we have the tools to keep this community mostly clean if we put our minds to it.

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...

Ouch... there goes my hour of nothingness....

 

I will edit once I finish reading :P

 

Edit: Ok first of all you really love writing and that's something we have in common. When you are trying to express an opinion, you are supporting it with examples which make it easier for the reader to understand and even embrace that opinion of yours.

 

On the other hand, I think you are over-analysing something that can be stated with fewer words and an easier-to-read approach. But I might be wrong, since my view on this topic might be different than yours.

 

1) Arguing is a way of interaction people have and it's also one of the driving forces on this planet. By arguing with each other we can be wiser, more creative and even realise that our views were on the wrong path. Arguing by insulting other people though, is not healthy. Even when you are facing a completely irrational perspective of a matter from another person, you can still express your views with a polite and respectful way. 

 

2) You can understand violence inciting more violence? You can understand? I disapprove. I don't understand. Is that what you're thinking? A vicious circle? Respected is the one who breaks the circle. Not the one who keeps it turning. I would stick to your previous sentence. Ideally no one should be rude regardless of the situation. So rudeness shouldn't be tolerated no matter what.

 

3) There is a saying. Opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one! Just make sure your opinion doesn't produce the same substances. With that said, people here should be more thoughtful before posting something, because it can attract reactions like the ones that shouldn't even exist, like trolling or even bullying.

 

Also, USA are the champions on freedom of speech? Since when?

 

Keep trying to make this community a healthier place. Each and everyone of us can contribute towards that goal.

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Sakura150612 nailed it.

*standing ovation*

 

Thank you xd I'm very interested in seeing how this discussion develops from here, as this is a very relevant topic and I think that we can help the cause by talking about it and sharing our opinions.

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Ouch... there goes my hour of nothingness....

 

I will edit once I finish reading :P

 

Edit: Ok first of all you really love writing and that's something we have in common. When you are trying to express an opinion, you are supporting it with examples which make it easier for the reader to understand and even embrace that opinion of yours.

 

On the other hand, I think you are over-analysing something that can be stated with fewer words and an easier-to-read approach. But I might be wrong, since my view on this topic might be different than yours.

 

1) Arguing is a way of interaction people have and it's also one of the driving forces on this planet. By arguing with each other we can be wiser, more creative and even realise that our views were on the wrong path. Arguing by insulting other people though, is not healthy. Even when you are facing a completely irrational perspective of a matter from another person, you can still express your views with a polite and respectful way.

 

2) You can understand violence inciting more violence? You can understand? I disapprove. I don't understand. Is that what you're thinking? A vicious circle? Respected is the one who breaks the circle. Not the one who keeps it turning. I would stick to your previous sentence. Ideally no one should be rude regardless of the situation. So rudeness shouldn't be tolerated no matter what.

 

3) There is a saying. Opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one! Just make sure your opinion doesn't produce the same substances. With that said, people here should be more thoughtful before posting something, because it can attract reactions like the ones that shouldn't even exist, like trolling or even bullying.

 

Also, USA are the champions on freedom of speech? Since when?

 

Keep trying to make this community a healthier place. Each and everyone of us can contribute towards that goal.

Very interesting. I'll address the points separatly, but I see your point in all of them.

 

1) I have a hard time doing this myself, but I agree with this one 100%. I'm somewhat jaded when it comes to dealing with people I deem to be irrational, but it's true that to better the comunity it's better to always reply politely and to incite goodness by being good oneself.

 

2) I think I may have explained myself poorly here. What I was really trying to get to was that it's on all of us to improve the interactions in our comunity. Even a saint would lose his patience if they constantly had to turn the other cheek if the ones slaping him never even attempted to change.

 

This is a very complicated thing to regulate, because we need to enforce a "respect to be respected" mentality, but retaliation or otherwise rude replies is, as you pointed out, a vicous circle. When I said that violence incites violence I did not mean to imply that it's acceptable, although I can see how it could be interpreted as such. So thanks for pointing this out and giving me a chance to clarify xd What I was saying was that the negative responses Super got at the beggining of his thread were completely unprovoked and inexcusable. People who are provoked first don't get a free pass though, it's still wrong. I wanted to point out that violence is more likely to spawn more violence than it is for violence to spawn out of nowhere, so if both people who start threads and those who reply keep it respectful, we will have a much easier time making this place friendly than if either side resorts to nasty comments.

 

That might have been a bit rambly, so I'll write a TL;DR version: it's everyone's responsability to better the comunity. I do not wish to promote the vicious cycle that is to fight fire with fire; it is in all of our best interest to promote the virtuous cycle that is to repay kindness with kindness, but we must all put from our part to make this possible.

 

3) Not much to say here. Also completely agree. Kinda ties into #1 and #2, since if we all make sure to be respectful in our opinions then we will go a long way to eliminate toxicity.

 

Extra) Regarding what I said on the USA and freedom of speech, I think my opinion may have a lot to do with the fact that I'm not American, and that my own culture, despite being democratic, is in a sense more restrictive than the US when it comes to expressing your opinion. I may have derailed my own argument by saying that, since what I really wanted to say is that even a country that prides itself on defending freedom of speech as a basic right will draw the line somewhere when it comes to what is a valid form of expression. It might be for the best that we don't go into too much detail of the politics and the current state of the USA in this regard, because I'd hate to get a perfectly good thread killed/closed for discussing something that is "off topic"/"kid unfriendly"/what-have-you. It's sad I even have to have this fear but that's how the cookie crumbles. I just wanted to exemplify my point and don't really want to invoke the wrath of the mods xd (although I would love to discuss politics privately if anyone is interested).

 

I will continue to do what I can to improve this community. At some point I nearly quit (again, lol) because I was tired of trying to smack sense into people, but then I realized that:

 

1) There was a reason I kept returning despite my periodic dissapointment and despite my increasing resl life issues that consume my free time. I really do love this community that much.

 

2) Smacking sense into people is not a good solution xd so I try to explain myself as best as I can and use the power of persuation instead.

 

I don't think you, Bug, and Super were here when I left, and I'm really happy to see you three working here to make this community better. I'm really glad to see some of our veterans are still here too, although I'm deeply sad that seminc has to be mostly inactive now. I hadn't been this dissapointed since Gonzo left.

 

But that's a story of the past now. I'm glad that we're here, and lets do what we can to make this communiy better than ever.

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3) There is a saying. Opinions are like ***holes, everyone's got one! Just make sure your opinion doesn't produce the same substances. With that said, people here should be more thoughtful before posting something, because it can attract reactions like the ones that shouldn't even exist, like trolling or even bullying.

 

+1.000.000

Remark of the century.

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I'm glad my thread came out as something good because i had a lot of negative thoughts while i was writing this.

Thank you all for your replies :)

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Excellent thread TRB.  Now, I will be reading Sakura's posts when I get some coffee made...

I'm really happy that my replies are enjoyable to read xd

 

Funny how this thread went on to a markedly positive note though. I guess one would have expected otherwise on a thread about toxicity, but it really shows we have what it takes to keep our community friendly imo.

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Per the norm, The Real Rant was well worth my time.

 

It's not easy to post the right thing sometimes.  Sometimes you get annoyed with people, or you've seen a topic one too many times, or you just got bashed in another thread and now you are ready to retaliate against the first person who trips your radar.  

 

Difficult doesn't mean impossible though.  I've come back to my posts a few minutes later and deleted them.  A few minutes too late, but still better than spreading the unlove.

 

I wish new players would take the time to scan for a post identical to theirs before creating it, but at the same time is it their responsibility to do so?  NO.  If you don't want to answer the same question twice, THEN DON'T.  It's better to not contribute than to only contribute a flame.

 

Sakura, I do want to read your response.  It's just too long right now.  I hope I come back to it.

 

edit:  I made the time to read it.  I had to turn off my music to do so because it was the music that didn't let me focus.  It's pretty quiet in here now.  I think I can hear the cleaning people.  Do they know I'm here?  Do they know I play Night March at the end of the season to get free prizes?  I hope not.

 

I think what you said has a lot of merit.  It's hard to care about a community.  Caring is where most of the strong reactions come from.

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Anyone wishing to clean up a  thread at any time, feel free to use this tool I made:

 

                         __________________________________

                         l                                                          um!  l

                         l   Welcome to Pokémon National Forest! l

                         l   Please keep a distance of 100ft. from   l

                         l   the wild censors, and do not feed the    l

                         l     trolls.  If the events that take place      l

                         l   within our boundaries make no sense,  l

                         l   simply take reality and divide by five.    l

                         l                                                                  l

                                                   l     l

                                                   l     l                

                                                   l     l

                                                   l     l

 No need to cite me as the creator, just use it like a comma! :P

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Per the norm, The Real Rant was well worth my time.

 

It's not easy to post the right thing sometimes.  Sometimes you get annoyed with people, or you've seen a topic one too many times, or you just got bashed in another thread and now you are ready to retaliate against the first person who trips your radar.  

 

Difficult doesn't mean impossible though.  I've come back to my posts a few minutes later and deleted them.  A few minutes too late, but still better than spreading the unlove.

 

I wish new players would take the time to scan for a post identical to theirs before creating it, but at the same time is it their responsibility to do so?  NO.  If you don't want to answer the same question twice, THEN DON'T.  It's better to not contribute than to only contribute a flame.

 

Sakura, I do want to read your response.  It's just too long right now.  I hope I come back to it.

 

edit:  I made the time to read it.  I had to turn off my music to do so because it was the music that didn't let me focus.  It's pretty quiet in here now.  I think I can hear the cleaning people.  Do they know I'm here?  Do they know I play Night March at the end of the season to get free prizes?  I hope not.

 

I think what you said has a lot of merit.  It's hard to care about a community.  Caring is where most of the strong reactions come from.

Dang, I did not expect to get so much praise for what I said xd Thanks guys :) I can only hope that this feeling can reach everyone eventually. I took almost a year long break due to massive time constrains and because I just couldn't stay away from the forums, but now that I'm back I realize just how much I missed being here.

 

Through the good and bad times, through all the hardships we've endured and all the good things we've shared in the forum, it really has been great to be here. I almost can't believe now I nearly quit again back when the chat was canned xd I'm so glad I didn't.

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Anyone wishing to clean up a  thread at any time, feel free to use this tool I made:

 

                         __________________________________

                         l                                                          um!  l

                         l   Welcome to Pokémon National Forest! l

                         l   Please keep a distance of 100ft. from   l

                         l   the wild censors, and do not feed the    l

                         l     trolls.  If the events that take place      l

                         l   within our boundaries make no sense,  l

                         l   simply take reality and divide by five.    l

                         l                                                                  l

                                                   l     l

                                                   l     l                

                                                   l     l

                                                   l     l

 No need to cite me as the creator, just use it like a comma! :P

Roflmao! You should charge people to allow them to use that. IT'S BEAUTIFUL :)

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Since this episode of The Real Rant got the lesser views in comparison to all the others, i guess some people's silence means they got the message?

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Since this episode of The Real Rant got the lesser views in comparison to all the others, i guess some people's silence means they got the message?

You know how the saying goes, "silence speaks volumes" xd

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