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Weakness


majero

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This has been bothering me for a long time. I could touch on many aspects on how unbalanced pokemon cards are, but I'll just mention this.

 

Weakness!

 

I find it OUTRAGEOUS weakness is x2 the damage, yet, Resistance is only -20flat damage. Some games are so completely one sided only due to the fact that my Fire deck is Weak against your Water deck, or your steal Deck is weak against my Fire deck, etc. It's not fair, whatsoever. You know what would be more fair, and  uh... LOGICAL!? If Weakness is only +20 more damage, or something like that. 

 

I love pokemon cards but **** do things like this drive me insane. 

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The funny thing about this is that in the Diamond/Pearl series, they changed Weakness to add +10/20/30 to the damage done, only applying 2x for LV. X Pokemon. For one reason or another, this was changed back to the old 2x from Black/White onward.

 

I think this was done to reflect the video games more closely.

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That's 

 

The funny thing about this is that in the Diamond/Pearl series, they changed Weakness to add +10/20/30 to the damage done, only applying 2x for LV. X Pokemon. For one reason or another, this was changed back to the old 2x from Black/White onward.

 

I think this was done to reflect the video games more closely.

 

That's interesting. 

 

If it were to reflect the video games, then Resistance should half all moves that pokemon is resistant to, rather than just -20. Doesn't make sense, ya know?

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That's 

 

 

That's interesting. 

 

If it were to reflect the video games, then Resistance should half all moves that pokemon is resistant to, rather than just -20. Doesn't make sense, ya know?

i personally feel that resistance halving damage taken would shift the game towards a stall format. (just like wailord but with switching between pokemon to get that extra flexibility. Also you do have to consider that if you halved damage, that you'd end up needing "5 damage" counters as well, which would be pretty annoying, since that would force loopholes into so many strategies.

 

Like absol ability could be able to move a ten damage counter or a five damage counter- effectively breaking focus sash with added flexibility.

 

And dusknoir would be able to add damage till a pokemon had 5 hp left instead of 10 (meaning you get more out of each heal)

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2x Weakness adds a disruption factor to decks that would be otherwise unstoppable - without it pokemon would be similar to other card games where one card (or small group of cards - I'm looking at you Exodius) completely dominate the field of play.

 

With double weakness a much weaker card can knock out even the top tier cards in Pokemon TCG.

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2x Weakness adds a disruption factor to decks that would be otherwise unstoppable - without it pokemon would be similar to other card games where one card (or small group of cards - I'm looking at you Exodius) completely dominate the field of play.

 

With double weakness a much weaker card can knock out even the top tier cards in Pokemon TCG.

 

i see your point. There would be toxic consequences if weakness wasn't x2. 

 

I guess I dislike how mono decks can be completely destroyed just due to going against a deck they're weak too. I know understand how important dual type decks are. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

i see your point. There would be toxic consequences if weakness wasn't x2. 

 

I guess I dislike how mono decks can be completely destroyed just due to going against a deck they're weak too. I know understand how important dual type decks are. 

if it wasn't like this you would be wishing it was. if it was based on the show, well everyone would cry more about mewtwo and mew being banned.

 

even tho technically mewtwo has weakness, in the show it didn't effect him much or barely. the x2 is to make it even since some decks have powerful pokemon and they are the ones you want to take out. like yveltal, mewtwo, lugia, gengar, trevenant, etc. they can be dealt easy with their weakness alone if used right.

 

tho some poke has no weakness, so if you go by your logic the ones who has no weakness would be almost nearly hard to beat. tho there is a few on the game that does not have weakness or resistance but they still can lose easy. but when your trying to ohko poke that can do that to you, that weakness plays a big part in the game.

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I think the weakness system needs to stay in place, for reasons mentioned above. However, I feel that the issue is not with the weakness system itself, but that some types are almost universally weak against another. Fire > Grass 90% of the time. In the games, this is okay as you are encouraged to have a broad mix of pokemon types on your team, But in the card game, energy needs dictate the types of pokemon you use in any given deck. From my experience, single- or two-type decks are more consistent, but it often means your Pokemon are weak to one or two types, and that makes for a lot of one-sided games.

Easy solution would be to mix up the weakness/resistances of the different types, albeit logically. Have more variety in each types' weaknesses.

Water is a good example of how weakness should be, IMO. Some water types are weak against grass, others against lightning, still more against steel. You can have a solid Water-type deck and not be completely hosed if you come across Grass.

Grass is a bad example, for comparison. Except for a few flying-type outliers, they're all weak to Fire. If you're using grass and come against Fire, you're gonna lose more often than not. This makes the game less about deck construction and skill (though you CAN win with the right combination of those) and more about matchup RNG.

Resistance is another story, another topic. I will say that it's not very effective (couldn't resist) anymore. A -20 damage might have been great when the game started (I dunno, I didn't play then) but like every tcg, power creep has shown its face and that -20 is nothing now. In the face of cards tossing out 200+ damage in just a couple turns of play, resistance simply doesn't stack up the way Weakness does.

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I think the weakness system needs to stay in place, for reasons mentioned above. However, I feel that the issue is not with the weakness system itself, but that some types are almost universally weak against another. Fire > Grass 90% of the time. In the games, this is okay as you are encouraged to have a broad mix of pokemon types on your team, But in the card game, energy needs dictate the types of pokemon you use in any given deck. From my experience, single- or two-type decks are more consistent, but it often means your Pokemon are weak to one or two types, and that makes for a lot of one-sided games.

 

Easy solution would be to mix up the weakness/resistances of the different types, albeit logically. Have more variety in each types' weaknesses.

 

Water is a good example of how weakness should be, IMO. Some water types are weak against grass, others against lightning, still more against steel. You can have a solid Water-type deck and not be completely hosed if you come across Grass.

 

Grass is a bad example, for comparison. Except for a few flying-type outliers, they're all weak to Fire. If you're using grass and come against Fire, you're gonna lose more often than not. This makes the game less about deck construction and skill (though you CAN win with the right combination of those) and more about matchup RNG.

 

Resistance is another story, another topic. I will say that it's not very effective (couldn't resist) anymore. A -20 damage might have been great when the game started (I dunno, I didn't play then) but like every tcg, power creep has shown its face and that -20 is nothing now. In the face of cards tossing out 200+ damage in just a couple turns of play, resistance simply doesn't stack up the way Weakness does.

Resistance in the base set is -30 so yeah, it matters A LOT, especially since Hitmonchan was the best card at that time. It deals 20 for 1 fighting and 40 for 2 fighting+1 colorless. It was so good that people use fighting-resistant Doduo just to stall thanks to its free retreat but had a lousy attack. So when Scyther (which also has fighting resist and free retreat) came out, it instantly became the best card because it can actually kill things XD. You can literally include it in every deck cuz its attack uses 3 colorless, the game's first 'Shaymin-EX'.

 

 

 

Every pokemon that is flying type in the main games gets fighting resist in the original TCG, which totally killed fighting types not named Hitmonchan.

 

 

 

Wonder what would happen if more pokes got resistance. Like maybe some fire types be resistant to grass or even to itself. Well, probably not much will happen.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I was also looking at my base set cards where it's actually HIGHER at -30 than it is now as someone mentioned... this is obviously way before the power creep set in. Are we still rolling with -20? It's sort of unbelievable given how we've got cards that can deal 300 damage now yet resistance remains unchanged. A poorly utilized mechanic indeed. 

 

Why can't each pokemon have their own custom value (I know, this isnt the place to suggest changes for the actual card game). Lets say a charmander gets -20 (of whatever), charmander gets -40 and a stage 2 charizard gets -60 or something. We could have mons who might be shine just because they sport a high custom resistance. Or god forbid some attacks or abilities which boost their base resistances.

 

Maybe it's extra bothersome to me because I knew all the weaknesses/resistances of the pokemon in the video games in each gen and they are invaluable to know for players. Resistance plays a huge factor in that game and is key for making good switches/predictions. It added so much to the strategy. It's sad that the card game still has resistance but for the most part its a neglected stat that means next to nothing, a lot of pokemon don't even have any resistance to anything while sporting a x2 weakness to something. 

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actually the weakness x2 system does indeed have something to do with the videogames, but actually the early ones and not the current ones.

 

Weakness x2 and resistance -20 was conceived during the early days of pokémon, where attacks on nearly 90% of the pokemon ranged from 10 to 40 damage and that with an energy count of 1 to (you guessed it) 4

 

However, yes compared to those days it IS somewhat broken, because -20 does no longer halve another attacks damage, certainly not in a time where there are so many OP cards that have damage ranging from 10 to 150 with 1 to 3 energy respectively. (not to mention outrageously OP effects like Talonflame's)

 

It's in fact not the weakness that is broken, but the resistance, given that it hasn't gone up in an even rate compared to the energy/damage rating of attacks.

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I heartily agree, the resistance has been sorely neglected and is way out of balance with damage production.  I think a base resistance of 60 is a bit much, but resistance which is more custom to the pokemon is definitely warranted.

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