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That advantage symbol.......


BowserLuigi

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How does the game decide who gets that thing? Win/lose ratio? Deck analysis? I dunno why but for some strange reason 4 times out of 5 the game gives me the annoying advantage symbol (I don't even win that often) and I only get a measly 10 points when I win which is honestly far too slow.

 

Btw I'm using theme decks because I took a years-long hiatus and I don't have enough cards to create a decent deck. Can you get more points by playing with standard/explanded/unlimited decks? Or are they all the same?

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If you win a game where your opponent has the advantage, you get 15 ladder points. I am not sure how the advantage is decided though.

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If you win a game where your opponent has the advantage, you get 15 ladder points. I am not sure how the advantage is decided though.

Yeah I know. But 10 points for one battle is.... too underwhelming when each match lasts for more than 10 minutes on average (unless someone rage quits midway).

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Yeah I know. But 10 points for one battle is.... too underwhelming when each match lasts for more than 10 minutes on average (unless someone rage quits midway).

Advantage is decided on the pokemon type their weaknesses according to my information

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Advantage is decided on the pokemon type their weaknesses according to my information

Just played against BW Basic Green with XY Basic Green and I got the advantage. I've also played against ANOTHER XY Basic Green and I still get the advantage. So that doesn't seem to be the case.......

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Advantage is decided on the pokemon type their weaknesses according to my information

then explain why fairy has advantage against mewtwo

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Just played against BW Basic Green with XY Basic Green and I got the advantage. I've also played against ANOTHER XY Basic Green and I still get the advantage. So that doesn't seem to be the case.......

A mod should reply :o

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In Versus, the game uses a matching system to match players against other players of similar skill level. To do this, it uses game stats that we can't see or access ourselves. Advantage means the game decided that you're "better" than the other player, based on its data. I don't know what exactly this data is, or how it's calculated, by it has to be some combination of Win/Lose and the relative strength of opponents you defeat.

 

If you have advantage, the game thinks you're going to win. If you win while the opponent has Advantage, you get 5 extra points on the VS ladder for it. That's called an "Upset Win", and actually IS seen in the game stats. I can not see my W/L ratio or my rank or anything in game, but I can see that I have 343 Upset Wins in the Statistics tab.

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In Versus, the game uses a matching system to match players against other players of similar skill level. To do this, it uses game stats that we can't see or access ourselves. Advantage means the game decided that you're "better" than the other player, based on its data. I don't know what exactly this data is, or how it's calculated, by it has to be some combination of Win/Lose and the relative strength of opponents you defeat.

 

If you have advantage, the game thinks you're going to win. If you win while the opponent has Advantage, you get 5 extra points on the VS ladder for it. That's called an "Upset Win", and actually IS seen in the game stats. I can not see my W/L ratio or my rank or anything in game, but I can see that I have 343 Upset Wins in the Statistics tab.

Wow some cool info never knew that it shows advantage depending on your win lose ratio :D awesome

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Wow some cool info never knew that it shows advantage depending on your win lose ratio :D awesome

Wow so that's what upset wins are (I thought it is how many rage quits against you).

 

Anyway yeah I often get the advantage, which makes no sense in theme battles imo. Just use a good one and hope you are luckier than the opponent.... Totally 100% skill!

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In Versus, the game uses a matching system to match players against other players of similar skill level. To do this, it uses game stats that we can't see or access ourselves. Advantage means the game decided that you're "better" than the other player, based on its data. I don't know what exactly this data is, or how it's calculated, by it has to be some combination of Win/Lose and the relative strength of opponents you defeat.

 

If you have advantage, the game thinks you're going to win. If you win while the opponent has Advantage, you get 5 extra points on the VS ladder for it. That's called an "Upset Win", and actually IS seen in the game stats. I can not see my W/L ratio or my rank or anything in game, but I can see that I have 343 Upset Wins in the Statistics tab.

 

This is pretty much it. To add on to this, the hidden value that decides matchmaking is reffered to as either ELO or MMR.

 

This is pretty much just trivia, but the term ELO comes from Arpad Elo. He created the ELO skill rating system for Chess in the 60's. To this day it is still used to determine the skill level of players in competitive 1v1 games, and in the case of videogames, matchmaking. MMR has a simpler origin: it means Match Making Rate, and it was created to determine matchmaking in videogames.

 

ELO/MMR is a hidden value as well; you can't check it out anywhere. It is anyone's guess what exactly MMR factors in, but there is a good chance that is uses big things such as win/loss ratio, your perfomance in each of your games and the opponents you've faced (so, if you win against an opponent with higher MMR than you, you will earn more MMR than if you had defeated someone with a lower skill level).

 

In the Versus ladder, the game will always try to match you against someone with a similar MMR value. Of course, it's impossible to always match you against someone with your same exact MMR value. This is the reason there's an "Advantage" symbol. This is just my speculation, since the users have very little information on the actual functioning of MMR, but there's probably a range of MMR difference where neither player is considered to have the statistical advantage (which is when neither has the advantage symbol), and beyond that range, one player is considered to be significantly more likely to win the game from a statistical point of view (the player with the advantage symbol).

 

So for example, say you have an MMR of 100. The game will match you with people that are witin a 20 MMR range, so people  with 80 < MMR < 120. People within a range of 10 will be considered to have no advantage, so within the range 90 < MMR < 110, neither player will have an advantage symbol. If you play against someone with MMR 85, you will have the advantage. If you play against someone with MMR 115, they will have the advantage.

[Disclaimer: these are all make-believe numbers. I don't know what the actual MMR values or ranges look like.]

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that symbol usually wakes me up and I play better.

 

:P

lol...

 

Usually that symbol makes my opponents think they have a chance, and then they see Night March and rage quit...

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I think you're missing the point.......

i am not. i mean is how does fairies tho have a advantage against a psychic deck tho. i always win against fairies.

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lol...

 

Usually that symbol makes my opponents think they have a chance, and then they see Night March and rage quit...

ya that sums up night march. i even have had a lucario deck auto conceed against me :P fear factor boys. but i have gotten advantage with my water deck vs a dialga when i was running the articuno with ancient trait

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I tend to laugh at it whenever I get the advantage symbol playing with my less good decks. I have no idea if which deck I'm using means anything towards it, but there's some decks I select I'm expecting to lose beforehand, so even when I get the advantage given towards me, it's still a surprise if I end up winning.

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I don't rage quit vs night march because I think I'll lose - most of my decks have pretty good win rates vs night march.  I quit when I see night march because I know it will be a 20 minute match, 18 of which will be me watching you aimlessly fumble through your entire deck over and over.  

 

The problem with knight march isn't that it is overpowered, or clever, or even that hard to beat.  It is that it is terminally boring to play against.  

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I don't rage quit vs night march because I think I'll lose - most of my decks have pretty good win rates vs night march. I quit when I see night march because I know it will be a 20 minute match, 18 of which will be me watching you aimlessly fumble through your entire deck over and over.

 

 

 

The problem with knight march isn't that it is overpowered, or clever, or even that hard to beat. It is that it is terminally boring to play against.

 

Night March matches are way shorter than 20 min. Only the turn 1 is slow, which is where most of the discarding happens. Even then, the whole discarding proces doesn't take more than 2-3 minutes unless you're playing against a slowpoke that needs 1 minute per action. Beyond that it plays out like a normal deck in terms of speed.

 

 

 

Also, to the credit of whoever made the first NM deck, the deck is actually pretty clever. For us who have seen NM at work multiple times it seems that it was as simple as putting 2 and 2 toghether, but back when the NM cards were released I don't think that it crossed anyone's mind the thought that they could OHKO almost anything with it by just looking at the cards. Now it's has plain out become old and kinda boring to see over and over again, but at some point it could have been called ingenious and creative. Kind of the same thing happened with Wailord. When it showed up at Nationals people were pretty amazed. Now we all think of it as a trolly deck meant to induce ragequits, but back then it was a legitimate, serious deck and was at least strong enough to duke it out with the top tier decks and come out on top consistantly.

 

 

 

Also, minor grammar **** moment: you misspelled night xd

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I strongly disagree that night march matches don't take longer. Not only do turns 1 & 2 take 3-4 times as long as any other deck, most of the counters to the deck (hammers, hex maniac, toads and other tool counters) tend to induce ANOTHER round of fruitless spinning while they try to reposition themselves for another strike.

 

Further, new tools (I forget the names - the one that let's them dig double colorless out of the trash and the belt that adds 40 health) typically means fewer shortend matches from locks and fewer ohko's for either side. In my experience, I can play 2 and sometimes even 3 matches in the time it takes to wait out a night marcher. Occasionally if my hand is exceptional I'll endure it just because routing a night march deck is cathartic. But mostly it's just not worth the time

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I strongly disagree that night march matches don't take longer. Not only do turns 1 & 2 take 3-4 times as long as any other deck, most of the counters to the deck (hammers, hex maniac, toads and other tool counters) tend to induce ANOTHER round of fruitless spinning while they try to reposition themselves for another strike.

Further, new tools (I forget the names - the one that let's them dig double colorless out of the trash and the belt that adds 40 health) typically means fewer shortend matches from locks and fewer ohko's for either side. In my experience, I can play 2 and sometimes even 3 matches in the time it takes to wait out a night marcher. Occasionally if my hand is exceptional I'll endure it just because routing a night march deck is cathartic. But mostly it's just not worth the time

If you go read around you'll see that the new items didn't buff NM nearly as much as everyone expected. FFB lets you tank more damage, but the way the meta has evolved makes 100 damage by turn 1-2 easy to do. Puzzle of Time is honestly more of a gimmicky item. I like running it because I find it fun, but a lot of the more serious NM decks don't have enough space for it. Because of the way in which it works, if you can't run 4 of it, it's not really worth running imo.

 

I honestly don't know against what kind of people you're playing. I play NM to ladder grind and I never take more than 3 minutes turn 1. From there on I almost never take more than 30 seconds per turn. I have honestly never played a more efficient deck. All of my normal decks have a good winrate but just arent as fast. With NM I was getting like 400 points a day, and that's considering I only play 1-2 hours a day tops, some days I cant play at all and not all of my matches were victories.

 

If you don't like NM that's cool. A lot of people don't. Just don't chug it up to NM taking an eternity per game because that's false xd The turn1 feels like it never ends but in reality it isn't longer than 2-3 minutes, and that's only turn 1.

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I'd wager you get 400 points a day because a lot of people quit as soon as they see you are playing night march BECAUSE it takes so long to play against.  Its like the anti-shrifty.  Playing with it gets you points fast from quits, not because you don't have a chance to beat it but because it isn't worth the time and effort to play against.  

 

The big weakness in almost every night march deck is its double colorless energy.  If you can eliminate all 4 of those cards, you MAY have to deal with someone who has one good attack left in them if they happen to not throw out all of their regular energies while they were flailing around in the first two rounds.  

 

You can eliminate colorless energy either by killing the guy who has a colorless energy attached or by using hammers, etc.  Most night marchers are smart enough to only deploy one double colorless at a time, so you mostly have to kill the guys who are powered up.  They are mostly 30 or 60 hit points, so it can be done if you get get guys with enough energy on them fast enough.

 

And that is the rub - most of the guys who can do enough damage fast enough are EX cards, and losing an EX card for every double colorless energy is a losing proposition.  They get two prize cards and you get one.  

 

Which is where the belt comes into play.  Equipped with a belt, they can no longer OHKO you, that means you can kill two colorless energy for every EX - now you get 4 prize cards and they get 4 prize cards, but they ALSO probably only have one good attack left in them if they are lucky.  You can win that way, but it takes a while.  Not only are you going to need 6 turns, but most likely every time they lost a double colorless (4 times now) they went into full on flail mode again, throwing out tools like crazy.  Each turn takes way more than 30 seconds when they don't have a powered up goon ready to go.  

However, the belts are a double edged sword.  a night marcher with a belt might have up to 100 hp, which means that Lucario needs 3 energy to get there (and he is weak to purple to boot).  Yveltal isn't affected, but Malgamar needs two hits instead of 1.  So it can stretch out the game THAT way too, requiring multiple attacks to take out players who were designed to be weak.

 

The puzzle of time thing always looked like a gimmick to me as well, but the ability to retrieve double colorless has extended night march matches another two attackers as well.  

I think that Night March is a "good" deck in that it is cheap and easy to play so that new players have something they can easily build to stand a chance even against well constructed decks.

 

I think that Night March is a "bad" deck in that it requires using every card in your deck, which by definition means it is one of the slowest decks you can possibly play.  Every card calls for another draw and another shuffle.  Its annoying to watch.  I have to keep tapping my IPAD just so it doesn't time out and go to the screen lock.  And in my opinion, it isn't a very fun deck to USE.  There isn't a lot of strategic decision making going on (relative to other decks).  Its mostly just "I have an item, I better use it".    

 

So I totally get it - USING night march is probably an efficient way to grind, particularly because the players who can slog it out and beat night march often concede just because beating night march means going 8-10 rounds and watching your opponent play 58 of their 60 cards.  Its not a fun deck to play against.  And it isn't a fast deck to play against.  

 

Put another way, a game played against a Night March deck with a deck that is set up to be capable of BEATING a night march deck takes a long time.  And as a night march player, I think you would probably agree.  you probably get fast wins, lots of concedes, but I'd wager most of your losses take quite a while.  And if you are playing against a night march deck and the BEST case scenario is a long drawn out win?  I'll usually just concede.  I can get two wins in the same time.   

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I'd wager you get 400 points a day because a lot of people quit as soon as they see you are playing night march BECAUSE it takes so long to play against.  Its like the anti-shrifty.  Playing with it gets you points fast from quits, not because you don't have a chance to beat it but because it isn't worth the time and effort to play against.  

 

The big weakness in almost every night march deck is its double colorless energy.  If you can eliminate all 4 of those cards, you MAY have to deal with someone who has one good attack left in them if they happen to not throw out all of their regular energies while they were flailing around in the first two rounds.  

 

You can eliminate colorless energy either by killing the guy who has a colorless energy attached or by using hammers, etc.  Most night marchers are smart enough to only deploy one double colorless at a time, so you mostly have to kill the guys who are powered up.  They are mostly 30 or 60 hit points, so it can be done if you get get guys with enough energy on them fast enough.

 

And that is the rub - most of the guys who can do enough damage fast enough are EX cards, and losing an EX card for every double colorless energy is a losing proposition.  They get two prize cards and you get one.  

 

Which is where the belt comes into play.  Equipped with a belt, they can no longer OHKO you, that means you can kill two colorless energy for every EX - now you get 4 prize cards and they get 4 prize cards, but they ALSO probably only have one good attack left in them if they are lucky.  You can win that way, but it takes a while.  Not only are you going to need 6 turns, but most likely every time they lost a double colorless (4 times now) they went into full on flail mode again, throwing out tools like crazy.  Each turn takes way more than 30 seconds when they don't have a powered up goon ready to go.  

 

However, the belts are a double edged sword.  a night marcher with a belt might have up to 100 hp, which means that Lucario needs 3 energy to get there (and he is weak to purple to boot).  Yveltal isn't affected, but Malgamar needs two hits instead of 1.  So it can stretch out the game THAT way too, requiring multiple attacks to take out players who were designed to be weak.

 

The puzzle of time thing always looked like a gimmick to me as well, but the ability to retrieve double colorless has extended night march matches another two attackers as well.  

 

I think that Night March is a "good" deck in that it is cheap and easy to play so that new players have something they can easily build to stand a chance even against well constructed decks.

 

I think that Night March is a "bad" deck in that it requires using every card in your deck, which by definition means it is one of the slowest decks you can possibly play.  Every card calls for another draw and another shuffle.  Its annoying to watch.  I have to keep tapping my IPAD just so it doesn't time out and go to the screen lock.  And in my opinion, it isn't a very fun deck to USE.  There isn't a lot of strategic decision making going on (relative to other decks).  Its mostly just "I have an item, I better use it".    

 

So I totally get it - USING night march is probably an efficient way to grind, particularly because the players who can slog it out and beat night march often concede just because beating night march means going 8-10 rounds and watching your opponent play 58 of their 60 cards.  Its not a fun deck to play against.  And it isn't a fast deck to play against.  

 

Put another way, a game played against a Night March deck with a deck that is set up to be capable of BEATING a night march deck takes a long time.  And as a night march player, I think you would probably agree.  you probably get fast wins, lots of concedes, but I'd wager most of your losses take quite a while.  And if you are playing against a night march deck and the BEST case scenario is a long drawn out win?  I'll usually just concede.  I can get two wins in the same time.   

 

Well fair enough, I understand your point. Honestly the only think that really stuck me as ood from your previous post was saying that the games take 20 minutes (given there's no insta concede of course). The games don't exactly take 5 minutes either , but 20 minutes is a stretch. In a VS game you would be ending the game with 7 or so minutes, and in tournaments you would outright lose to the timer every time you played night march. Can we settle for a middle ground and say they take about 10-12 minutes between both players? I think that's closer to what an actual NM game looks like when it isn't a complete stomp (regardless of who's getting stomped. NM also has some terrible matchups like Trevenant, but that's a different subject).

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What I think is funny about this whole ELO, MMR, and RNG debacle is how it gives my decks which I just have evolution lines, and no energies, to simply complete dailies, advantage over ANYONE because I have never won a match.  LOL-explain that one to me.

 

This just further goes to show how broken the system in this game is, and the evidence is all of my friends who quit this game because of all the outside factors which should have nothing to do with the RNG, like win ratio, or whatever else they cook up in the algorithms.

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What I think is funny about this whole ELO, MMR, and RNG debacle is how it gives my decks which I just have evolution lines, and no energies, to simply complete dailies, advantage over ANYONE because I have never won a match.  LOL-explain that one to me.

 

This just further goes to show how broken the system in this game is, and the evidence is all of my friends who quit this game because of all the outside factors which should have nothing to do with the RNG, like win ratio, or whatever else they cook up in the algorithms.

I don't think ADVANTAGE has anything (or at least very much) to do with your Decks. In my experience, your ELO/MMR is your own personal winrate in a given format. I may be wrong, but I find the matchmaking system to be pretty sound despite the nature of such algorithms.

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