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Noivern Echolocation ruling question


rgp151

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Do attacks like those from Mega Mewtwo, Hydriegon-EX, and Tyrantrum-EX that "ignore effects on the opponents pokemon" still hit Noivern if he gets heads on Echolocation or not?

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OK, so we'll have to look at the wording of the cards, since Pokemon TCG has rules according to the wording.

 

The wording of Noivern's Echolocation states: "If any damage is done to this pokemon by attacks, flip a coin. If heads, prevent that damage" therefore, effects of the attacks still work etc but DAMAGE doesn't.

 

Now we look at M Bluetwo for example, Vanishing Strike states: "If there is any stadium in play, bla bla, and this attack's damage isn't affected by Resistance, or any other effects on your opponent's active pokemon" therefore, the DAMAGE goes through NO MATTER WHAT, so regardless of the coin flip, Noivern is not safe against my personal favourite card from this new set, M Bluetwo.

 

If it does prevent that damage, then blame this new update since there are so many other things wrong with it, it would make sense :P

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I don't know though, because to me it looks like first the damage is applied, then it is retroactively removed, hence, the damage is done, but then after that it is taken off, so the Echolocation still works.

 

Noivern's Echolocation states: "If any damage is done to this pokemon by attacks, flip a coin. If heads, prevent that damage"

 

So to me it looks like, first the damage is done, but then after that, Noivern prevents the damage, it isn't being prevented up front on an effect on Noivern at the time the attack is made by Mewtwo.

 

I've been in this situation twice on PTCGO and both times i rolled tails anyway, so I still don't know what happens...

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If it says "not affected by weakness, resistance, or another effects on the defending pokemon", then it means it does, take cobalion-ex for example, 100 damage. So no matter what unless cobalion its self is prevented from attacking, it will do 100, 120 with muscle band, no matter if they are weak or resistant, or they have a safeguard ability, or hard charm, even regice can still be attacked and so can noiverine, cause it will do 100 damage no matter what the ability or tools or effects on the pokemon.

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My reading of it was that Echolocation is not an effect on the pokemon, Echolocation is an ability that caused you to do a coin flip AFTER you have taken damage and the coin flip is what causes the effect.

 

So my reading of it was:

 

1) Attack

2) Do damage to Noivern

3) Echolocation causes coin flip

4) If heads, then negate damage

 

Compared to something like Regice:

 

1) Regice attacks

2) Regice receives an effect to prevent damage from EXs

3) EX attacks while effect is present on Regice

4) Attack ignores existing effect and causes damage

 

So in the Noivern sequence the damage occurs when there is no effect on Noivern, and then after the damage is done, then Noviern takes an action to negate it.

 

I could be wrong, but that was my reading of it....

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I don't know though, because to me it looks like first the damage is applied, then it is retroactively removed, hence, the damage is done, but then after that it is taken off, so the Echolocation still works.

 

Noivern's Echolocation states: "If any damage is done to this pokemon by attacks, flip a coin. If heads, prevent that damage"

 

So to me it looks like, first the damage is done, but then after that, Noivern prevents the damage, it isn't being prevented up front on an effect on Noivern at the time the attack is made by Mewtwo.

 

I've been in this situation twice on PTCGO and both times i rolled tails anyway, so I still don't know what happens...

Prevent any damage means the damage is not done yet. If the damage is done, it would have said heal all damage done by the attack instead of prevent. So the ability wouldn't work on m-bluetwo

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okay let's approach this another way.. zooming in on a card (pre-update at least) showed all effects on the card

 

this was the case for noivern's echolocation.. it had the upward green arrow saying that "this pokemon may avoid damage" or something like that

 

since I doubt pokemon would rule the ability as both an effect on the pokemon AND something else, we can safely say it's ONLY an effect on the pokemon

 

now since we're considering pokemon which negate effects during their attack, mega mewtwo would hit straight through noivern's shield- personally this is the reason I don't use noivern at all

 

also if you still feel like there's an argument which nullifies mine, just try it out in battle, one match could clear this all up instead of a page full of comments trying to twist a pretty simple ruling

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I was attacked by an ampharos while playing noiverine and it ignored the coin flip. And I know I didn't just get tails because the coin never flipped.

 

The coin should still flip. I've had the attack twice with "ignore effects" pokemon, and the coin flipped both times, but I got tails. 

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The coin should still flip. I've had the attack twice with "ignore effects" pokemon, and the coin flipped both times, but I got tails. 

Yeah, could have glitched.

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I don't know though, because to me it looks like first the damage is applied, then it is retroactively removed, hence, the damage is done, but then after that it is taken off, so the Echolocation still works.

 

 

 

Noivern's Echolocation states: "If any damage is done to this pokemon by attacks, flip a coin. If heads, prevent that damage"

 

 

 

So to me it looks like, first the damage is done, but then after that, Noivern prevents the damage, it isn't being prevented up front on an effect on Noivern at the time the attack is made by Mewtwo.

 

 

 

I've been in this situation twice on PTCGO and both times i rolled tails anyway, so I still don't know what happens...

prevent that damage literally means "stop the damage before it happens" which is equivalent to safeguard pokemon and pyroar..

 

 

 

again all you have to do is try it out in battle and you'll see what I mean

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Hey rgp, really sorry for DC'ing a bunch of times, theres this ANNOYING bug since this ANNOYING update that makes my game crash everytime i go on pub trades and sometimes randomly, and it just so happens to be crashing everytime i send a message to you and you alone, so thats why I DC'd in game, really sorry but I'm resending the challenge.

 

EDIT: Sorry I couldnt send any messages while in match for fear of DC'ing.

 

Anyway, we tested, and while using M Bluetwo and a Stadium in play, Noivern was Knocked Out before the coin even flipped, so the damage went through regardless.

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NP. We got it tested. Awesome deck BTW.

 

Looks like I was wrong BTW, at least with Mega Mewtwo. There was no roll at all when MM attacked.

 

On the other hand, when I was attacked by Tyrantrum-EX I did get rolls, they just happened to roll tails, so maybe it works a little differently for the two, but for Mega Mewtwo anyway, there is no roll, you just get KTFO :)

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NP. We got it tested. Awesome deck BTW.

 

Looks like I was wrong BTW, at least with Mega Mewtwo. There was no roll at all when MM attacked.

 

On the other hand, when I was attacked by Tyrantrum-EX I did get rolls, they just happened to roll tails, so maybe it works a little differently for the two, but for Mega Mewtwo anyway, there is no roll, you just get KTFO :)

Thanks :) As for Tyrantrum I don't have a deck with him or we could test that too.

 

And yeah thats why I really LOVE M Bluetwo, you just get "KTFO" As long as he has the energy :D

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NP. We got it tested. Awesome deck BTW.

 

Looks like I was wrong BTW, at least with Mega Mewtwo. There was no roll at all when MM attacked.

 

On the other hand, when I was attacked by Tyrantrum-EX I did get rolls, they just happened to roll tails, so maybe it works a little differently for the two, but for Mega Mewtwo anyway, there is no roll, you just get KTFO :)

But shouldn't  Tyrantrum and M Bluetwo do the same thing ?? it's confusing

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But shouldn't  Tyrantrum and M Bluetwo do the same thing ?? it's confusing

 

I would think so, but maybe not. The only other possibility is that something else was causing the roll and I just mistook it for the Echolocation roll. It's hard to tell in the new format what's going on. In the old format a box came up that said Echolocation in big letters that was hard to miss. Now its like a coin just flips and doesn't really tell you why. So maybe the coin was flipping for something else, or maybe somehow the two attacks are implemented a little differently. The wording isn't exactly the same on the two attacks, so maybe it's coded differently?

 

Anyway, it seems that Echolocation does not work when up against these types of attacks.

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I would think so, but maybe not. The only other possibility is that something else was causing the roll and I just mistook it for the Echolocation roll. It's hard to tell in the new format what's going on. In the old format a box came up that said Echolocation in big letters that was hard to miss. Now its like a coin just flips and doesn't really tell you why. So maybe the coin was flipping for something else, or maybe somehow the two attacks are implemented a little differently. The wording isn't exactly the same on the two attacks, so maybe it's coded differently?

 

Anyway, it seems that Echolocation does not work when up against these types of attacks.

Well I still don't have a decisive answer but thank you very much for your help !

And Ikr, everything is automatic now lol

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Sounds legit.

Attacks like Shred and so on that 'ignore all effects' have always trumped abilities, no matter the wording of the ability.  Vanishing Strike is outrageous.

BTW, I thought everything was more 'deliberate', not 'automatic'.

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