Jump to content

Shiftry is going to ruin the Expanded format game.


Simplyobsessed

Recommended Posts

I was just in Expanded format and before I was even able to take my first turn the guy put out a forest of giant plants, enabling him to evolve up Shiftry (72/99 - Next Destinies) immediately using the grass type Seedot and Nuzleaf from Flashfire. If you're not aware, when you evolve into Shiftry its ability enables you to flip a coin - if heads you can put one of your opponents Pokemon and all attached cards into their deck. With a combination of Shiftry, AZ, Scoop up Cyclone, Super Scoop up, devolution spray, Shaymin EX (RS), Unown (AO) and revive (see Unown's ability) he was able to rapidly go through his deck evolving and de-evolving all of his Shiftrys. He took out all three of my starting Pokemon in the process.

 

This was all before I was able to even take a turn.. Imagine if he had a trick coin?! ..Or how easy it would have been if I only had one basic pokemon in my first hand?

 

Before Forest of Giant Plants Shiftry was just an irritant, now its a game breaker.

 

Really think Shiftry should be banned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all you need a bit of luck when you face these Shiftry decks.

 

You have to go first to set up maybe more than just 2 basic Pokémon within your first 7 cards - as this is usually the average number for decks to start with.

 

If you go second you have just one chance to avoid the fiasco:

You can prevent from being 'shiftryed' via Wobbuffet with its ability block as your 'only' starter or the new Baltoy AT which has an Ancient Trait 'Theta Stop' that denies it from being affected by opponents abilities.

But wait: this gives your opponent chances to win via the 'Latios-donk' that comes in play when you only place one Pokémon.

 

But either way both Pokémon probably won't find the way into decks just to prevent from being shiftryed - and even if they are in your deck as a one-off copy / or two, you first need a new deck space for it as these cards have then no other usage and are later on only a bench sitter. More important here is the fact that you have one of these two cards for sure in your opening hand, which will happen if you play in not even one-third of all games.

 

So with this in mind players have to find a way to deal with it and needing creativity for their decks. Or just risking the fact that they might be shiftryed even before they draw one card for their first turn when going second. This only applies for expanded and not modified luckily one can argue.

 

 

Just some small sidenotes:

1. The item card 'Trick Coin' only affects coin flips for attacks same as the abilitiy from Victini 'Victory Star' - so abilities aren't given a second shot for a coin flip if they fail.

2. To add more insult players for sure will include Recycle in their Shiftry decks for another shot for already used Devolution Sprays.

3. A ban I think can't be on here as this feature is another method of winning a game - by clearing the opponents field off of their Pokémon - and compared to the ***** of Lysandre's Trump Card with never ending games and taking away the deck out option this isn't a case here. Usually the Shiftry player burned through all the resources on turn 1 or on turn 2 and then is no way of coming back as the deck runs no attackers and the concede will come.

 

 

Good that unlimited format wasn't directed with this thread as there Junk Arm comes to help for 4 more guaranteed Scoop Up Cylones = 4 more coin flip chances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The deck idea has been know for quite some time now, it's a fun concept and a blast to play, but given the glass canon nature of the deck, it will never be a top contender and thus a ban, especially after one day, would be a terrible idea.

 

@Mefftu: Look out for me in Unlimited, I'm currently running both Shiftry and Foretress Donk ( forget about Junk Arm, we can use Lysandre to start everything from scratch :D)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shiftry is going to have a big impact on the format. On face value it's a good deck, but when the potential counters are taken into consideration it may not be for big tournaments. However, make no mistake about it... the PTCGO will be flooded with them.

Why such an impact?
From testing against Shiftry I can say it consistently turn 1 gets off 3 Giant Fan heads which means if you can't get more than 3 basics turn 1 (or a hard counter) you could be in trouble. The impact on the format will be so big because every deck will have to prepare for it. Whether or not you play against it chances are you will have either specific techs or a "worse" list just so you can incorporate counters. Yes I agree..Shiftry is ruining the format.

Why won't it do well in big tourneys?
As good as Shiftry is on face value, it's counters are devastating to it. IF you pull out even a single counter, it is completely shut down. It isn't like your usual tech that could "help" you in a particular match up, these techs will give you auto wins against Shiftry. In a big tourney with so many rounds, chances are you will run into these counters and take losses.

What are the "reasonable" counters?
Mefftu touched on this, but to be honest there aren't many...Woboffet/AT stop are clearly the "best" counters because if you go first or second you just place them down at opening and win. The issue is AT stop Pokemon are bad...and incorporating Woboffet into a deck isn't easy. You can even try Wally Garbodor, but if you go second it won't help much...So the big question I tried to figure out is, what expanded deck has a good shot against Shiftry while not changing it's list...At this point I'm going with Archeops with a high basic Pokemon count. If I go first Maxie for Archeops and win, if I go second hopefully I can get basics down. All the while still playing a deck that can beat other expanded lists.

@Felidae
My friends and I were joking around saying "imagine Trump Card was legal now with Forteress [Content edited by Mod_Turtle: Please refrain from posting profanity on the forums. Thank you!] Please" and now your saying it is here in unlimited?? Wow...just wow lol...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shiftry is a sign that the expanded format is starting to get too large. Both Shiftry and Forest of Giant Plants are cards that are ok on their own, but break the game when put together.

 

It is a problem, but until the official tournaments do something about it, I believe that the TCGO should refrain from taking any action since the TCGO is meant to emulate the actual game. Remember, expanded was only added because the official tournaments started using it.

 

LTC was the 1st major ban in over a decade (to my knowledge), so calling for a Shiftry ban might be over reacting. Also, for those who are pro Shiftry ban, why ban Shiftry over FoGP? FoGP is just as much a cause to this problem as Shiftry, so there needs to be a a good reason to ban one over the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This card needs to be banned immediately. I just "lost" (hint: I didn't lose because my opponent didn't even try to play the game properly) the finals of a tournament because somebody played this deck.

 

It's simply unbeatable unless you have a VERY specific deck. It's completely gamebreaking and MUST be banned. I reported the player for exploiting also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shifted decks are actually extremely easy to beat. They rely on abilities, all of them. Wobbuffet will wreck the deck and stall them out. They have 0 ways to do damage, which means they can't get around this in any way possible!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everyone whinging about shifty decks need to use their brains. I've encountered that deck 6 times before modifying my deck and I was 3:3. I ended up building my own deck to test out and find its weakness and found that for a guy like me who flips mostly tail its a deck that's very easy to lose. It's pretty much do or die. If you are unable to Giant Fan all Pokemon within first 2 turns you will lose. It's extremely easy to counter Shiftry. Put 1-2 Baltoy in your deck. Make room for it because that deck is running rampant at the moment. Or simply modify your deck to increase the odds of pulling more basic Pokemon on the first draw.

Ofcourse if luck is on Shiftrys side you can't win against it. But it's all down to the flip of a coin. The coin has 2 sides.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For those who are concerned, I have a guide (Link:http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/32928-the-way-to-beat-shiftry-guide/?p=394313)that tells you all the ways that you can beat Shiftry (I came up with 5 general ideas how to beat the deck, so it can be done, very easily, I might add.)

 

Take a look at it, and let me know what you think on that thread! If you have another, unmentioned option, add it there too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol sorry guys but I'm not putting 4 wobbuffets in every single one of my decks to counter this broken deck. Shiftry simply needs to be banned. It's just that simple. Both in Expanded and Unlimited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol sorry guys but I'm not putting 4 wobbuffets in every single one of my decks to counter this broken deck. Shiftry simply needs to be banned. It's just that simple. Both in Expanded and Unlimited.

 

So put in a Baltoy or Hex maniac. Problem solved.

 

Besides, banning a card that is easily beaten is a bad look for pokemon. It doesn't need a ban.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol sorry guys but I'm not putting 4 wobbuffets in every single one of my decks to counter this broken deck. Shiftry simply needs to be banned. It's just that simple. Both in Expanded and Unlimited.

That deck is so stupidly easy to beat man....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol sorry guys but I'm not putting 4 wobbuffets in every single one of my decks to counter this broken deck. Shiftry simply needs to be banned. It's just that simple. Both in Expanded and Unlimited.

 

It will never be banned from the unlimited format. LTC is still allowed there.

 

Expanded I agree with or at least an errata to GPF but that will probably only come if it does well in real life tournaments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Garbo Wobba Manectric for the win! :) seriously though, you need to get Wobba or Garbo-Wally-tool on turn 1. Wobba if ur going second. The giant fan deck is strong and very consistent but it is not ban worthy at this time. Though it will definitely affect how decks are built in expanded.

 

Btw, Iron, where is the mirror match u mentioned? Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it should be banned from Versus, however I do think it should be banned from Tournaments. We have to pay 3-4 tickets to get into a Tournament but encountering that deck as well as Night March you have next to no chance of reaching 2nd place, let alone first.

I never would have thought I would say this but in this case Night March is the lesser of two evils as you have a chance to defeat that deck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Garbo Wobba Manectric for the win! :) seriously though, you need to get Wobba or Garbo-Wally-tool on turn 1. Wobba if ur going second. The giant fan deck is strong and very consistent but it is not ban worthy at this time. Though it will definitely affect how decks are built in expanded.

Btw, Iron, where is the mirror match u mentioned? Thanks!

I mentioned my Mirror match master already.

So put in a Baltoy or Hex maniac. Problem solved.

 

Besides, banning a card that is easily beaten is a bad look for pokemon. It doesn't need a ban.

It works really well.

 

 

I still don't understand why people are having trouble with this deck. It's pretty easy actually, the advice is sound, and it works well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So put in a Baltoy or Hex maniac. Problem solved.

 

Besides, banning a card that is easily beaten is a bad look for pokemon. It doesn't need a ban.

 

And having a deck that wins on the 1st turn without even getting the chance to play the game is a good look for Pokemon? When players lose in tournaments, having paid their hard earned tickets, and slowly start to lose interest in the game, is that a good look for Pokemon? I don't think so.

 

Can you honestly tell me that those using this type of deck have any real appreciation for the game or respect for their fellow players?

 

But if you're against the idea of banning it, here's another one; match these players with one another and let them duke it out. Let's how they like it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it should be banned from Versus, however I do think it should be banned from Tournaments. We have to pay 3-4 tickets to get into a Tournament but encountering that deck as well as Night March you have next to no chance of reaching 2nd place, let alone first.

 

I never would have thought I would say this but in this case Night March is the lesser of two evils as you have a chance to defeat that deck.

Hmm, I think such a 'deck' can't be banned from tournaments. Alone how it should work would be questionable - by just make the big RED X on Shiftry from Next Destinies (and thus making it the same thing like Lysandre's Trump Card - which had really a problem of making a deckout not available anymore)?

This deck and Night March deck are both decks that have their strenghts, and as Iron_Bat already said they can be defeated.

 

I still don't understand why people are having trouble with this deck. It's pretty easy actually, the advice is sound, and it works well.

Well, if you go 2nd you standing against the wall, because you need your 'tech' Wobbuffet or Baltoy' to start with - all other strategies don't work there of course. Even if you go first it isn't set in stone that you always set up easily in your first turn. We all have these kind of starting hands, maybe some nice hands but evolving into Trevenant without the Wally in hand doesn't work.

 

This I think is the main problem. But even though the Shiftry deck is a fearsome deck, when starting with the wrong fully loaded item cards in hand or just late arriving Giant Plants of Forest this deck doesn't work properly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still don't understand why people are having trouble with this deck. It's pretty easy actually, the advice is sound, and it works well.

That question is easy to be answered: Because they are lazy.

 

Why invest a couple of minutes of your thought process and come up with some counter measurements ( as you showcased in your thread), why bother trying to exploit the weakness of the deck and why even prepare for an archetype that has been hyped for weeks now.

 

New cards will always equal new changes to the deck building process and if you honestly thought that you'd just be able to keep your old decks after the release of AOR without adjusting them in the slightest

 

[Content removed - please keep all discussion respectful and constructive. -Mod. Poplar]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And having a deck that wins on the 1st turn without even getting the chance to play the game is a good look for Pokemon? When players lose in tournaments, having paid their hard earned tickets, and slowly start to lose interest in the game, is that a good look for Pokemon? I don't think so.

 

Can you honestly tell me that those using this type of deck have any real appreciation for the game or respect for their fellow players?

 

But if you're against the idea of banning it, here's another one; match these players with one another and let them duke it out. Let's how they like it!

I never said that having this problem was a "good look". Situations like these are a catch 20. One side, players are furious because the deck is doing well, but there are obvious, and simple counters for the deck, so their hands are tied.

 

Having people lose interest because of one deck is common, however I haven't seen or heard of any people leaving these past 48 hours. Let me know if you find any, please.

 

Many of the players that play the decks are actually playtesters that look at the decks for upcoming autumn regionals, and are some of the most respectable players in the game, both for sportsmanship and love of the game.

 

And "Matching these players with one another and let them duke it out" sounds against forum rules for constructive criticism.

 

I'm not against banning Shiftry, however I am against banning cards that have no reason for ban. In this case, their one in the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That question is easy to be answered: Because they are lazy.

 

Why invest a couple of minutes of your thought process and come up with some counter measurements ( as you showcased in your thread), why bother trying to exploit the weakness of the deck and why even prepare for an archetype that has been hyped for weeks now.

 

New cards will always equal new changes to the deck building process and if you honestly thought that you'd just be able to keep your old decks after the release of AOR without adjusting them in the slightest [REMOVED]

 

Someone hand this man an award.

 

This is the best explination of what's wrong with so much of pokemon. Thanks Felidae.

 

Very well said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Felidae_, on 14 Aug 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

That question is easy to be answered: Because they are lazy.

Why invest a couple of minutes of your thought process and come up with some counter measurements ( as you showcased in your thread), why bother trying to exploit the weakness of the deck and why even prepare for an archetype that has been hyped for weeks now.

New cards will always equal new changes to the deck building process and if you honestly thought that you'd just be able to keep your old decks after the release of AOR without adjusting them in the slightest [REMOVED]


It has nothing to do with laziness. It has everything to do with fun, skill, and luck.

A deck that can win in turn one due to technicality of the rules is by definition a boring deck for the person who's against it. It without a doubt will unattract new players and players who just want to play the game for fun. There are counters, sure, but we're not talking about a "good deck" that is winning on skill. We're talking about a deck that technically wins by winning turn one. I'm really surprised that everyone thinks that you need 4 Wobbuffets/Baltoys in EVERY single deck to counter this horrible deck. I mean seriously? That's the solution? Hope to start, or hope to start with one of those Pokemon? Win by pure luck of the draw or by coin flip? [Content removed - please keep all discussion respectful and constructive. -Mod. Poplar] It's a farming deck.

I could easily put 4 wobbuffets in my deck. Easily. I just don't want to. Especially over a talentless, broken donk deck. This is very bad for Pokemon and they'll find that out quite soon.

[Removed]
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has nothing to do with laziness. It has everything to do with fun, skill, and luck.

 

A deck that can win in turn one due to technicality of the rules is by definition a boring deck for the person who's against it. It without a doubt will unattract new players and players who just want to play the game for fun. There are counters, sure, but we're not talking about a "good deck" that is winning on skill. We're talking about a deck that technically wins by winning turn one. I'm really surprised that everyone thinks that you need 4 Wobbuffets/Baltoys in EVERY single deck to counter this horrible deck. I mean seriously? That's the solution? Hope to start, or hope to start with one of those Pokemon? Win by pure luck of the draw or by coin flip? [REMOVED] It's a farming deck.

 

I could easily put 4 wobbuffets in my deck. Easily. I just don't want to. Especially over a talentless, broken donk deck. This is very bad for Pokemon and they'll find that out quite soon.

 

[REMOVED]

I throughly, however respectfully, disagree. I've counted around 12 players that said "BAN!" and about 5 that said "There's a way...". That's about twice as many people that took the easy way.

 

What exactly is the technicalityof the rules that qualifies a "Fun" deck and a "Boring" deck? If you can find me the official rule, I'd be happy to take it back, but there is (in my memory) such a rule still in existence.

 

The counters include Wobbuffet and Baltoy. I play 2 in my decks, and that gets me through most games, but 4 is way overkill. Besides, all you need is one to ruin the deck's match. The deck requines no skill, yes, and it is a donk deck, yes, but that means nothing to the amounts of respect you give the player you're playing. You could be playing the worst deck imaginable, but you can be the nicest person ever.

 

I won't tell anyone how to run their deck, but I simply put out constructive suggestions out there for use. It's your (the players) choice to take it or leave it.

 

One last thing...

 

 

The judges decide bans and erratas. We don't know what their doing, but what we say here will likely have little effect of what they say. But, we can still have a friendly constructive conversation about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a hint - when you play Wobuffet make sure it is your only pokemon on the bench. I foolishly put two others on my bench and was escape roped out.

 

Edit: I won that one in the end anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...