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Ban Dark Hammer theme deck from tournaments


RedTuesday

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I want Wizards of the Coast back, because the DCI knew what they were doing in terms of rulings.

 

There is no theme deck that is a direct answer to the weaknesses of the Dark Hammer deck, Aurora Blast is the closest you'll get, but even then the resistance disappears when the dark evolution comes out.

 

All other theme decks have a scissors to their paper. But not this one.

 

That's why you see 8/8 players playing it in every tournament.

 

I know this will fall on deaf ears, but I'm not playing another theme deck tournament ever again until there's a direct competitor to this offensively imba deck or it gets stopped from competing.

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Hi RedTuesday,

 

I play a decent amount of Theme Deck action myself. Right now I'm still mostly playing Ocean's Core. Yes, Dark Hammer is pretty strong, but in general I personally find that your initial draw determines how you'll go. That's just Theme Deck Play. If I draw into Kyogre and have the initial energy to power him up to swinging for 80 on turn 4, usually that's a win.

 

I don't envision Dark Hammer being removed or something like that. What is more fun for me to think about is future theme deck (likely a Psychic deck that much of Dark Hammer is weak to) that is seen as a "counter" deck to Dark Hammer. When or if that could become a reality, I don't know, but it is an interesting possibility.

 

Good feedback. Thanks for starting the thread.

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I find Mind Wipe beats Dark Hammer more than 50%, as one example.  As Samhayne mentioned, in Theme Deck matches it is all how a match starts and how you play the deck, that's really most of the battle (pun intended).  Heck, even if you are playing with Basic Grass and get Serperior rolling early (and building up Serperior #2) that is hard to beat, even if you are playing vs. Dark Hammer in which it doesn't have type advantage (where as Mind Wipe mostly does).  I have won a fair bit of Theme Deck tournaments and I can promise you I did not use Dark Hammer (I like you like to go against the grain, although, sometimes if you can't beat 'em - join 'em is an option, lol, but I do like going against what is popular, so I hear ya).  Just wanted to share the above, hope that was ok, all the best,  :)

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The new storm rider deck give dark hammer a run for their money. As soon as Zapdos is set up, game over (not to mention the deck have 2 of them along with a center lady, and skarmory being your best friend to call on these zapdos), 120 dmg is the magic mark to counter everything in this deck. I play a fair share of theme deck game myself (using dark hammer). There is definitely an alternative solution to your problem. You should be patience and explore the options. No theme deck is really "overpowered", some are more consistence than other, which dark hammer serve a nice purpose for. Best of luck.

 

Blue

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I find Mind Wipe beats Dark Hammer more than 50%, as one example.  As Samhayne mentioned, in Theme Deck matches it is all how a match starts and how you play the deck, that's really most of the battle (pun intended).  Heck, even if you are playing with Basic Grass and get Serperior rolling early (and building up Serperior #2) that is hard to beat, even if you are playing vs. Dark Hammer in which it doesn't have type advantage (where as Mind Wipe mostly does).  I have won a fair bit of Theme Deck tournaments and I can promise you I did not use Dark Hammer (I like you like to go against the grain, although, sometimes if you can't beat 'em - join 'em is an option, lol, but I do like going against what is popular, so I hear ya).  Just wanted to share the above, hope that was ok, all the best,   :)

 

A large portion of Mind Wipe is normals, with weakness to fighting. To make matters worse, half of the psychic types in the deck have the ghost type weakness to dark, so if the opponent knows what he's doing, he'll simply evade matching up the way you want, and with the superior trainer cards in Dark Hammer, only luck can get you a win.

 

I don't base my play on luck. I want a tool that does the job I want it to, reliably.

 

 

The new storm rider deck give dark hammer a run for their money. As soon as Zapdos is set up, game over (not to mention the deck have 2 of them along with a center lady, and skarmory being your best friend to call on these zapdos), 120 dmg is the magic mark to counter everything in this deck. I play a fair share of theme deck game myself (using dark hammer). There is definitely an alternative solution to your problem. You should be patience and explore the options. No theme deck is really "overpowered", some are more consistence than other, which dark hammer serve a nice purpose for. Best of luck.

 

Blue

 

Since half of storm rider is weak to fighting, you  REALLY have to get Zapdos out, which means a bad shuffle is going to destroy you. A deck that revolves around 2/60 cards to beat the most popular deck in a format is a joke.

 

Like I said, Aurora Blast is the closest the game has come to a theme deck that is pretty much ideal in terms of types to beat Dark Hammer - but the actual selection of cards in it is a joke. And it is just as reliant on Articuno as Storm Rider is on Zapdos - but at least if you don't get Articuno, you can use the Salamence line as a strong-ish contender until you can manipulate the cards. Storm Rider doesn't really have a strong back-up in case Zapdos gets stuck in the prizes or on the bottom of the deck.

 

I forget the name, but I also have the Plasma block theme deck with psychics (Espeon/ Leafeon) and that deck too has too many junk cards mixed in that pale compared to the depth of quality in Dark Hammer, even if there are a few scattered minor advantages in it.

 

But I digress, the point is, the last 10 or so tournaments I was in, the first match-up was always Dark Hammer (when I was using Voltage Vortex) EXCEPT the ONE time I went in with Aurora Blast - that time I came up against Mental Might.

 

Last time I just conceded on the sight of Dark Hammer. And now I've given up.

 

"Can't fight them, join them" is never an option for me. I will not become part of the problem.

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A large portion of Mind Wipe is normals, with weakness to fighting. To make matters worse, half of the psychic types in the deck have the ghost type weakness to dark, so if the opponent knows what he's doing, he'll simply evade matching up the way you want, and with the superior trainer cards in Dark Hammer, only luck can get you a win.

 

I don't base my play on luck. I want a tool that does the job I want it to, reliably.

 

...

 

"Can't fight them, join them" is never an option for me. I will not become part of the problem.

 

So, let's recap...you're saying to me:  (your words in quotes below)

 

1. "A large portion of Mind Wipe is normals, with weakness to fighting"

 

- That would be 6 cards TOTAL, lol.  Six.  Total.  And any somewhat decent player of Mind Wipe would never put Porygon into play, so that takes care of 4 of those cards.  I often do use Kangaskhan though vs. Dark Hammer, again, I reference my over 62% win percentage vs. Dark Hammer with Mind Wipe, and that's at least 100 battles.  So I'm just going on empirical fact with this topic.  Anyways, back to your statement, a "large portion of Mind Wipe" is not 6 cards, LOL.  I'm happy to try to help, but when I get negativity thrown back at me, it makes me just want to dust off my sandals and move on...please be assured I somewhat know what I'm talking about, lol, I was going to even offer to have a dozen or so battles with you (you using Dark Hammer and me using a variety of Theme Decks, including Mind Wipe) to illustrate some things, but now I'm not so sure after the negative response. :(

 

 

2. "half of the psychic types in the deck have the ghost type weakness to dark"

 

- While that is true, it is also true that less than half of Dark Hammer's attackers are Darkness type, so not sure where you're going with that one.  If they have the ability to only use those 2 Darkness attackers then that means we have the ability to only use non-Darkness weak pokemon.  Although, I will admit, Golurk sure is fun to play regardless and wreaks havoc on Dark Hammer. xD  He's worth it every time for me.

 

 

3. "only luck can get you a win" followed by "I don't base my play on luck,"

 

- So, I've won all those theme deck tournaments (which had many Dark Hammer decks in them) when I've used Mind Wipe and other decks, etc., because of "luck"?

 

 

Really, that's what you're saying.  We give helpful feedback and then you have to be negative :(.  I understand you're frustrated, but 3 pretty decent players just responded to you with some good perspective and thoughts.  I'm not trying to say Mind Wipe is "awesome" or anything like that (even though I do enjoy Tropius fighting resistant and his low energy attacks to set up the mid-game state, and I also like how Mind Wipe sets up very quickly with Call for Family, but that's more surface nuances of the deck, deep down it is a good deck, but just needs to be known how to be played with Caitlin, etc.).  Anyways, you probably don't care, it seems you have written off whatever we have wrote or would write, and already come to a negative conclusion about dealing with Dark Hammer :(.  Not sure what anyone can say, so I'll just one more time refer to my own experience.  Most Theme Decks tournaments I enter I win.  I never have used Dark Hammer.  I almost always play vs. Dark Hammer.  I even have beat Dark Hammer several times with Voltage Vortex (one of my favs, and was too OP so it was good Dark Hammer came around in that regard), several times using Nuzleaf and making them deck out.  Anyways, I ramble,

 

GL 

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So, let's recap...you're saying to me:  (your words in quotes below)

 

1. "A large portion of Mind Wipe is normals, with weakness to fighting"

 

- That would be 6 cards TOTAL, lol.  Six.  Total.  And any somewhat decent player of Mind Wipe would never put Porygon into play, so that takes care of 4 of those cards.  I often do use Kangaskhan though vs. Dark Hammer, again, I reference my over 62% win percentage vs. Dark Hammer with Mind Wipe, and that's at least 100 battles.  So I'm just going on empirical fact with this topic.  Anyways, back to your statement, a "large portion of Mind Wipe" is not 6 cards, LOL.  I'm happy to try to help, but when I get negativity thrown back at me, it makes me just want to dust off my sandals and move on...please be assured I somewhat know what I'm talking about, lol, I was going to even offer to have a dozen or so battles with you (you using Dark Hammer and me using a variety of Theme Decks, including Mind Wipe) to illustrate some things, but now I'm not so sure after the negative response. :(

 

See, you don't understand my entry point to this at all. You seem to be here to 'give advice' or 'provide suggestions' to what you perceive to be a newbie theme deck player. Which is entirely the wrong perspective to take, because I wouldn't make this thread at all if I didn't already consider all the options and try a majority of them myself.

 

"Any half decent mind wipe player wouldn't even put Porygon into play". I know that, but you just admitted that Mind Wipe has useless cards. Dark Hammer has no useless cards. This is a recurring problem in almost all theme decks. The ones that don't, are weak against Dark Hammer. The other, well, the other is Dark Hammer.

 

62% win rate is really bad for a deck that in your eyes represent the best possible deck to beat Dark Hammer. Which is my point. All theme decks have one or two "nemesis" theme decks that will almost always beat it, 90% of the time. Dark Hammer doesn't, and you are just proving my point. Dark Hammer has no Kryptonite. It needs one.

 

 

2. "half of the psychic types in the deck have the ghost type weakness to dark"

 

- While that is true, it is also true that less than half of Dark Hammer's attackers are Darkness type, so not sure where you're going with that one.  If they have the ability to only use those 2 Darkness attackers then that means we have the ability to only use non-Darkness weak pokemon.  Although, I will admit, Golurk sure is fun to play regardless and wreaks havoc on Dark Hammer. xD  He's worth it every time for me.

 

Less than half of Dark Hammer's attackers being dark may be true on the surface, but 2 of them are Pangoro, which is the #1 card the opponent is trying to play, and prioritizing. That alone makes it more common. But I see your point.

 

 

I even have beat Dark Hammer several times with Voltage Vortex

 

So have I, I won a tournament against nothing but Dark Hammer opponents with it, but I also realize that that was 100% shuffler miracle, luck and not very skilled opponents, and such a victory is completely hollow to me. The only way I'll enjoy a win is if it was deserved.

 

Not to mention how boring it is to play against the same soulless flavour of the month (year) deck three times in a row, win or lose.

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The reality is that all theme decks, even the best ones like Dark Hammer or Mental Might, rely heavily on luck due to poor ratios of pokemon / trainers / energy and useless pokemon with often incomplete evolution lines.  This is just the nature of the theme deck format.

 

Dark Hammer is slightly better due to a slightly better assortment of draw support cards, as well as more paths to victory.  However, this advantage is marginal at best, and I wouldn't even rate it as the best theme deck.  I would argue that Mental Might is the superior theme deck, at least slightly.

 

If you have so much of a problem playing matches that are often decided by luck, then you should really give up on the theme deck format and play Standard, Expanded, or Unlimited.  Theme deck matches are dominated by top deck luck, coin flip luck, and match-up luck.

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See, you don't understand my entry point to this at all. You seem to be here to 'give advice' or 'provide suggestions' to what you perceive to be a newbie theme deck player. Which is entirely the wrong perspective to take, because I wouldn't make this thread at all if I didn't already consider all the options and try a majority of them myself.

 

"Any half decent mind wipe player wouldn't even put Porygon into play". I know that, but you just admitted that Mind Wipe has useless cards. Dark Hammer has no useless cards. This is a recurring problem in almost all theme decks. The ones that don't, are weak against Dark Hammer. The other, well, the other is Dark Hammer.

 

62% win rate is really bad for a deck that in your eyes represent the best possible deck to beat Dark Hammer. Which is my point. All theme decks have one or two "nemesis" theme decks that will almost always beat it, 90% of the time. Dark Hammer doesn't, and you are just proving my point. Dark Hammer has no Kryptonite. It needs one.

 

 

 

Less than half of Dark Hammer's attackers being dark may be true on the surface, but 2 of them are Pangoro, which is the #1 card the opponent is trying to play, and prioritizing. That alone makes it more common. But I see your point.

 

 

 

So have I, I won a tournament against nothing but Dark Hammer opponents with it, but I also realize that that was 100% shuffler miracle, luck and not very skilled opponents, and such a victory is completely hollow to me. The only way I'll enjoy a win is if it was deserved.

 

Not to mention how boring it is to play against the same soulless flavour of the month (year) deck three times in a row, win or lose.

 

Actually, I'm sharing what I did because I have had a different experience than you, and I'm sorry that you have had numerous difficulties playing vs. Dark Hammer.  Since I have had different experiences (and used every theme deck in the game) I was just offering different perspective.  I was in no means saying Mind Wipe was the "best" theme deck or even the "best theme deck vs. Dark Hammer".  My son likes Genesect a lot, so when we play theme deck battles or tournaments, he likes to pick that one, so that is one I have had over 100 battles with recenlty and faced a lot of Dark Hammer, hence my commentary about it because we keep track of these things and I just noticed the stats about it, no offense.  Actually, it's pretty cool to see a 6 year old beat some players on here, but I suppose that is neither here nor there..

 

Yes, Mind Wipe has "useless cards" in some matchups, but in other theme deck matchups those "useless cards" are now attackers you will want to be using.  This is often the case with most theme decks as you know.  Even Dark Hammer with Lickitung and Lickilicky those 4 cards are useless in several matchups, but against other theme decks you may want to start with them.  Anyways, likely a moot issue. 

 

But I do disagree with you that Dark Hammer "needs a kryptonite".  Like I said, I have had no problems playing against it, and if it's something that is polarizing then that brings attention and excitement to the game :), but I guess I will stop bothering you on here and we'll agree to disagree or something to that effect.  Anyways, nice to meet you and I hope your pokemon dealings get more positive as time moves forward.

 

Again, all the best,

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Dark Hammer is a good and powerful deck to play with and hope to win tournments but it can be defeated without such a strong deck. I've just played 2 matches with it before answering and I won the first and lost the second against grass trainer deck ... when players are good it all comes down to the draw on each side really.

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First off, the only reason I'd ever want Wizards of the Coast back is so that Jamboree and Legendary Collection 2 can see the light of day. :P

 

Second, Dark Hammer is a clear "top tier" theme deck, but as Alex said, it's not a sure bet at all. Ocean's Core is very consistent too, and Dragonspeed may be a much better choice for banning before Dark Hammer, as Dark Hammer is still available in the shop.

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