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Bug concerning FF Beartic's Igloo Hold move


JardaxMellyl

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Beartic's Igloo Hold move says it should deal 20 damage plus 20 more damage for each "Colorless Energy in your opponent's Active Pokémon's Retreat Cost".

But when my opponent's Beartic attacked my Slurpuff (which has a Retreat Cost of 2 Energies), it dealt 20 damage. This was because my Slurpuff had a Fairy-type Basic card attached to it, and there was a Fairy Garden Stadium card in play. The game is considering the Energy shown in the Retreat Cost changes if the paid Retreat Cost changes (which is not true, since the BASE card statistics can't be changed by any other card.)

 

Client Version: 2.23.0.822.Live.7520:70#306

Card: Beartic

Card Number: Furious Fists #22

Expected Action: Beartic's Igloo Hold should deal 20+20*Defending Pokémon's Colorless Energy in its Retreat Cost

Actual Action: The attack's damage is modified when other cards or effects change the opponent's paid Retreat Cost.

Steps to Reproduce: Place a Fairy Garden Stadium card. Attack a Pokémon that has a Fairy-type Energy card attached to it, and has a Retreat Cost of at least 1, with Beartic's Igloo Hold.

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Guest ArtichokeCat

Uh, I think everything's working fine.

Fairy Garden changed Slurpuff's retreat to 0.

Beartic's attack is 20 + so Igloo Hold would be doing 20

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when you place an aspertia gym the normal pokemon's base hp gets changed

when you place down megnetic storm the pokemon's base resistance gets changed

so when you place fairy energy on pokemon when fairy garden is in play the retreat gets changed

 

I've had my share of mistakes from this as well, tried to igloo hold a landorus with float stone

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The point is the programming/programmer (which you all should agree comes after logic, and in a real, three-dimensional, material playmat, which also comes before the PC game, that's what applies) is not considering the base stat and the resulting stat as separate stats. The attack points to a statement shown on a targeted card. It must disregard side-effects that take place in other moments. The igloo is pointing to deal more damage to bulky targets (retreat cost is in some ways related to speed, typing and weight), and the retreat cost is a way of measuring this. The fact the card has two energies in its retreat cost isn't changed by anything, despite what its retreat cost might result to be after outside effects are applied. Also, read I was given an advantage because of this. It's not like I'm venting out.

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nah I think it is working as intended. having external effects affecting the base stats is not something new as we can see from the examples provided.

for the zubat with the ability and 1 retreat, when no energy is attached its retreat cost is zero despite the card's base stats stating otherwise. While abilities are not exactly external of the card, it shows that there are things that can affect the card's base stat and I think that's how it should work.

 

P.S. yes I did note that you have an advantage from that, I'm just giving you an example of my encounters with igloo hold, unfortunately did not benefit from it during my encounter

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Well, it is fair to ask whether Igloo Hold should consider the Defending Pokemon's 'base' Retreat Cost (as shown on the card) or its 'effective' a.k.a. at-the-moment Retreat Cost (taking into account any relevant stadiums/abilities/effects/etc.). Much in the same way anything that modifies the damage from an attack states whether the modification comes before or after weaknesses/resistances...

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Chronophysicist, your main problem to carry on this discussion is that you base your opinion on previous experiences with the PC game. The PC game is based off the actual form of the game, which are cards, a playmat, a table and two people in front of each other. If a card says X thing should happen, and it's not happening clearly or correctly in the game, then the game is wrong, not the card's description.

Stratadrake, I agree. It's a good idea. The attack should specifically point if its effects are or are not subject to modifications of the base stats of the defending Pokémon.

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Just pointing out another scenario where this has happened....Beartic attacks a weakend Moltres-EX but only does 40 damage because Glacieon dropped Moltres's retreat cost to 0. If the attack was based on the printed card and disregards outside modifications, then that would have been a OHKO. But the game as of right now treated the attack as "at the moment retreat cost is 0," allowing Moltres to survive the attack and return major but no KO damage. Maybe a card ruling some where? found quite a few forums with this same question and all of them have this similar answer "Beartic's attack does 20+ the current active retreat cost where current active retreat cost is the cost "at that moment" and if modified then calculate damage from the modified cost."

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Chronophysicist, your main problem to carry on this discussion is that you base your opinion on previous experiences with the PC game. The PC game is based off the actual form of the game, which are cards, a playmat, a table and two people in front of each other. If a card says X thing should happen, and it's not happening clearly or correctly in the game, then the game is wrong, not the card's description.

Stratadrake, I agree. It's a good idea. The attack should specifically point if its effects are or are not subject to modifications of the base stats of the defending Pokémon.

 

just to be clear my experience with igloo hold is only shown to highlight that I have had similiar encouters involving igloo hold. It was not meant as evidence of how igloo hold should work.

 

nonetheless based on my understanding of the description of igloo hold, I still stand by my opinion that igloo hold is working as intended. a pokemon's base stats (not just retreat cost) has always been modifiable and effects should always be applied with the modifiers. Some example i would give:

Raticate(BC) uses super fang on a 180 hp pokemon with a giant cape(sorry for using outdated cards, not fully transitioned), does the attack deal 170 or 190 damage?

 

Sawk (PB) uses Kick of Rightousness against a Non-plasma pokemon with a team plasma badge on, does the attack deal 10 or 50 damage?

 

Perhaps what we need really is a proper ruling to confirm what's right and what's wrong. doesn't sound like we're getting anywhere with this, but i know what I would answer for the questions above, which is why I am standing by my answer.

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Raticate(BC) uses super fang on a 180 hp pokemon with a giant cape(sorry for using outdated cards, not fully transitioned), does the attack deal 170 or 190 damage?

 

Sawk (PB) uses Kick of Rightousness against a Non-plasma pokemon with a team plasma badge on, does the attack deal 10 or 50 damage?

I know what my answers would be for those two questions too. Generally speaking, unless a card tells you to ignore certain effects, you always take those effects into account when another card refers to it. So if a Pokemnon is holding a Team Plasma Badge ("the Pokemon this tool is attached to is a Team Plasma Pokemon"), Haxorus can one-shot it with Strike of the Champion; if Fairy Garden is in effect and your opponent's Pokemon has a Fairy Energy attached, "its Retreat Cost is zero" thus Igloo Hold should only do the base 20 damage (plus weaknesses/resistances).

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It is working correctly. Fairy Garden along with the effects of all other cards in play apply unless you are told to ignore them. There's no need for additional information on the cards as it is in the rules of the card game.

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Like everyone else said, this is working as intended. Fairy Garden changes Slurpuff so that it "has no retreat cost". If Slurpuff has no retreat cost, how many colorless energy are in its retreat cost? 0, because it has no retreat cost.

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Raticate's attack is 100% clear about what to do. The Defending Pokémon must be attached Damage counters to it until it's 1 damage counter away from being knocked-out.

But Igloo Hold is semantically unclear (as well as any attacks that look at the Retreat Cost, I'm guessing) as to look at the Retreat Cost in the card itself, or the Retreat Cost the player would have to pay in that given moment were he or she to retreat it.

If Nintendo meant to consider the "Paid" Retreat Cost, then the attack functions properly. Otherwise, it has to be revised. Also, in the future, the attack could provide more detailed info so nobody is subject to mistake.

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Put damage counters on the Defending Pokémon until its remaining HP is 10.

 

that's the descriptions for the BC Raticate.

you could easily interprete "remaining HP" as the HP of the card itself, not the HP of the pokemon in the given moment it was attacked. It does not say attach damage counters until the pokemon is 10 damage from KO.

 

 

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It seems you are trying to create difference in terminology when there is none inferred. Something which gives a Pokemon a bonus of any sort (+HP, new type, +damage) alters the "base" Pokemon. This is similar to games which enhance entities in play with counters. A creature with 1 health getting a +1 counter would be a creature with 2 health. Just like a Pokemon which has 30 HP getting +20 HP is now a Pokemon with 50HP. If that Pokemon takes 40 damage and is then healed, it is able to heal fully to 50HP. Fairy Garden says "Each Pokemon that has any fairy energy attacked to it has no retreat cost" this means that regardless of the original value, the card has a new value equal to 0. It only has 1 value. When you go to retreat a Pokemon, you pay its current cost not because it has a separate "paid" retreat cost, but because its retreat cost is simply equal to the current value.

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Hello trainers!

 

Generally speaking, unless a card tells you to ignore certain effects, you always take those effects into account when another card refers to it. So if a Pokemnon is holding a Team Plasma Badge ("the Pokemon this tool is attached to is a Team Plasma Pokemon"), Haxorus can one-shot it with Strike of the Champion; if Fairy Garden is in effect and your opponent's Pokemon has a Fairy Energy attached, "its Retreat Cost is zero" thus Igloo Hold should only do the base 20 damage (plus weaknesses/resistances).
Something which gives a Pokemon a bonus of any sort (+HP, new type, +damage) alters the "base" Pokemon. This is similar to games which enhance entities in play with counters. A creature with 1 health getting a +1 counter would be a creature with 2 health. Just like a Pokemon which has 30 HP getting +20 HP is now a Pokemon with 50HP. If that Pokemon takes 40 damage and is then healed, it is able to heal fully to 50HP. Fairy Garden says "Each Pokemon that has any fairy energy attacked to it has no retreat cost" this means that regardless of the original value, the card has a new value equal to 0. It only has 1 value. When you go to retreat a Pokemon, you pay its current cost not because it has a separate "paid" retreat cost, but because its retreat cost is simply equal to the current value.

 

These statements are correct. When Fairy Garden is put into play, each Pokémon with a Fairy Energy attached has no Retreat Cost. Unless or until Fairy Garden is removed from play, this Retreat Cost of 0 is effectively the only Retreat Cost for that Pokémon, whether playing irl or online. As others have stated, what is printed on a card is subject to change during a match, which is why items such as counters exist to mark these changes.

 

If you would like to submit any feedback or suggestions about how we could make this clearer in-game without straying from the real-life cards/rules, please feel free to do so via the Feedback & Suggestions subforum or a support ticket (link in my signature).

 

As there is no bug present here, I'll be closing this thread.

 

Thanks for your reports and the intriguing discussion! :)

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