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The trading system encourages mass hoarding


ESVDiamond

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Hello,

 

Lately as you may have noticed, the price on key cards on PTCGO have SKYROCKETED with no signs of slowing down. Tropical Beach's that just several months ago were worth 20 packs are now valued at 60 packs, and almost never are posted for less than 90 packs. FA EX's like Darkrai have skyrocketed to a value of 25 packs, Mewtwo EX at 19, 14 for Rayquaza EX, etc.

 

I don't know what the actual solution is (aside for letting people sell cards for $, which would fix everything overnight), but at this point one of the redeeming factors for PTCGO I would tell people is that you can build a top tier deck without putting out massive money like other CCG's. However that is no more, as a Blastoise/Keldeo deck (which uses 3x Tropical Beach minimum) is worth well over 200 packs in value (and unless you get all killer deals will likely surpass 300 packs to build). Just when I started last year I put the deck together for about 35 packs. Just sitting on the cards has netted me over 150+ packs in value on my collection.

 

While there always will be expensive cards in any CCG, I believe this game has a problem suddenly where cards are going through the roof, as very few people in total are actively trading them. Most just buy and sit.

 

I have done over 700 trades on this game, and the last month+ has just been awful. The good cards aren't just being moved atm. Want a FA Keldeo? I just looked, you need to go to the last post of PAGE 9 to find a single one for trade. Well at least they are there right? Well every single one listed (I checked) is asking for 30+ packs of stuff in return for a 16 pack card. Don't want to rip yourself off but want a FA Keldeo? Sorry, you are 100% out of luck as of when I wrote this.

 

The trading system is VERY nice in this game, but right now it seems to encourage mass hoarding (due to not being able to sell cards for $) and having a few select people hold a majority of the overall wealth in the game. I hope there can be a way to prevent this, as it won't be long before we are looking at 100+ packs for a Beach, and that's just crazy. I may be one of the guys hoarding valuable cards myself, but that's only because never trading them for long periods of time is more effective then actually trading.

 

To be very clear I am one of the hoarders, with 133 tradable EX's atm, 3 beaches. Give me a reason to get rid of some of this stuff!

 

Thanks for your time, love this game and want it to be even more awesome!

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Hi ESVDiamond,

 

First, as a reminder for all, offering digital items for real-world currency is not permitted under any circumstances.

 

Furthermore, the booster pack "prices" discussed here are made, managed, and influenced by the community so this feedback may be more geared toward the community.

 

Regardless, I'll send it up to the Dev team and leave your thread open for discussion in the meantime.

 

Thanks for your input!

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I strongly believe the problem is caused by the change from "choose a pack" to "you get this pack" when redeeming a code. This blocks new cards from old sets from coming in, and as such, massive price hikes. And Tropical Beach is its own problem: way to go guys, giving some people an unfair advantage because they were able to do something outside the game that others haven't been able to! No wonder it costs as much as it does.

 

The reason it didn't start early is because many people didn't have the idea of hoarding. Hoarding has no effect when many people still sell at "normal" prices. But it was inevitable that it would eventually start.

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GR0 actually brought up an interesting point (about the "choose a pack >>> "you get this pack") I had not considered, interesting!

 

As for the community setting prices I do understand that, however there should be a point (in my opinion) where the dev team might have to step in to fix things. It benefits no one if you start having to spend hundreds of dollars in booster codes or thousands in real world card packs to even have a shot. The game begins to feel like a "Pay to Win" instead of "Play to Win". It drives people away when there is a massive barrier to entry, and that barrier is not skill or patience, but instead cold hard cash.

 

Edit: Just realized the tournament system is a great chance to fix this while giving inventive to play the game

 

Have certain cards be

A: prizes for high place

B: Tournament "loyalty rewards"

C: Bonus for entry

 

A 100% made up example I just thought up (obviously it would not just be this simple), assuming you keep the normal prizes and this is an addition.

 

Bronze: Enter a tournament in May - Receive 1x Double Colorless Energy

Silver: Win a tournament game in May - Receive 1x Hypnotic Laser

Gold: Enter 5 tournaments in May - Receive 2x Fairy Garden

Platinum: Win a tournament in May - Receive 1x Lugia EX

Championship: Win 5 tournaments in May - Receive 1x Tropical Beach

 

You obviously then rotate the cards on a weekly/monthly/whatever basis as needed. You can inject important cards into the game, and could even make them untradable and have the same effect. Right now there is a very limited amount of people that can build certain decks such as Blastoise/Keldeo EX because of the hoarding nature of cards like Beach. Even if Beach rotates out there will always be another Beach, a card that is not in regular circulation anymore that has a limited supply and high demand.

 

Reward people for playing and of course as well as playing well and I think the winner is everyone!

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Beach will drop when Flash Fire is released don't worry. I'm sure the players with 5+ copies realize it's not going to be in format in 2 sets so they either get something for it now or it goes the way of the Primes.

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your statement " at this point one of the redeeming factors for PTCGO I would tell people is that you can build a top tier deck without putting out massive money like other CCG's" still holds true, technically you can still made good decks (excluding the tropical beach ones) with relative ease thanks to a lot of the promo tins. a lot of your issues with expensive card, I have noticed, seems to be related to Full art cards which are not necessary for deck building, their promo and non full art counterparts would work equally well and are significantly cheaper. the full arts and secret rares have always been a premium item and it is expected that their price will be high.

 

I personally have no issue with people hoarding cards, I think its perfectly reasonably to want to keep 4 of each card in case it ever becomes useful in the future. I will say however that I don't understand people who keep over 4 cards.

 

I myself have 3 tropical beaches in possesion but I would not consider myself as hoarding them given that I actually do actively use all 3 of them for my decks. also I think its only fair to call it hoarding if its just sitting there doing nothing

 

And I think its a good thing that older cards are getting more and more expensive, it means older cards become less and less desirable to the general population of players and the game can continue to focus on upcoming new cards. The primes are priced really high these days but the games that you're allowed to use them are limited( even though its in the unlimited category), the number of competitive players who are still playing them are limited and the people who would still want them are limited. Basically its saying "if you want to keep to the old traditional cards, then you need to pay the premium". I think the game actually would've preferred to just get rid of old cards altogether, but a lot of people would get upset about their fancy cards going missing.

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I have no issue with people having 4x of everything. Just as a personal example I am currently sitting on 12 various Xerneas EX, 13+ Blastiose EX's, 9 Lugia EX's, etc. Why? Because all I have to do is sit on them and they will 4x or more in price.

 

While yes the main inflation point is FA cards but naturally those and Beach's will be the 1st to rise. However i fully believe the rest will follow, and some even have started to. It was not but 4-6 months ago that PS Black Kyurem EX could be bought all day for 1 pack, today it's valued at 9. 800% gain in less then a year is not good. It has had 0 change in competitive usage since that point (always only used in Blastoise/Keldeo EX).

 

While the promos do in fact stop some cards from going out of control, you cannot expect or assume that will happen with every in demand card.

 

I assume promo tins are not printed forever (I do not honestly know)? If so they will soon suffer the same treatment.

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That has not been confirmed. And BTW, Primes are worth more now than ever.

 

I have been able to get primes for 2 packs. I would be SHOCKED if BW promos are not rotated out this fall, shocked.

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yea promo tins definitely don't get printed forever, I believe a lot of the early tins are becoming quite hard to find these days, but with legandary treasures I think a lot of those reprinted EXs will remain in the format for quite a while i would imagine and I believe that by the time they start to become scarce again it would be near their time to rotate out anyways.

 

I think its not completely ridiculous to hear price hike for BK ex given that he's tied to the blastoise deck, if someone was going to buy black kyurem ex from you, it can only mean he wants to make the blastoise deck, which means he's gonna be getting tropical beach, which means he's pretty loaded to afford them, so if he can afford the beaches to make the deck, why not take the opportunity to take more from him.

 

I don't think hoarding the cards will automatically mean that you will make a profit in the future, I think its more about making an investment basically. You're holding onto those rare cards under the assumptions that their demand will increase in the future. If Blastoise EX never makes it to mainstream play, I doubt it would have that much of a price hike.

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Also some people are not hording, they merely don't need anything, so who cares if they have 10 FA Darkrai, why go through the trouble of distributing them?

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This is really hard to talk about as the filtering/rules in this forum prevents me from using examples of other CCG's that have has this problem and why it's a problem. Keyword: Fetchlands

 

However it benefits no one if players are holding onto anything over 4x of a in demand card.

 

Also it's silly to say "Well BK is worth a lot because Beach is worth a lot and they are both in the same deck". It's about supply/demand. Right now there is very few Plasma Storm packs being opened (the majority being X/Y) which is putting fewer and fewer into rotation. That's why BK went up, not because "Expensive Beach = Expensive BK".

 

As for the comment about the 10x FA Darkrai. That's 10 less FA Darkrai's out in rotation. As an example I went again and check all open trades on the server. There is currently only 4 FA Darkrai for trade, all 4 of which are for SR Ultra Balls or FA Trainers. Even ignoring that, if that person then dumped his 10x Darkrai, that RIGHT AWAY increases supply of open Darkrai EX FA's by 250%. That's HUGE.

 

Again, my issues are not with the people legit just wanting 4x, or someone that really likes one pokemon/card and mass collects them not for value but instead for personal liking. The issue is with the power traders that can mass sit the big money cards and artificially inflate the market value for them due to high demand and VERY low "available" supply.

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Guest ArtichokeCat

That is scary..the thought of big power traders controlling the very market itself...

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To further this example, Beach has gone up over 13% (8 packs increase) in value since I made this thread. 0_o

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Saw Zoroark BO09 was a prize for 1st place in today's Alpha, cool stuff!

 

Edit: And the system worked! Zoroark went from 200+ packs to 20~ in one day. That's what I'm talking about! :)

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  • 2 weeks later...
Saw Zoroark BO09 was a prize for 1st place in today's Alpha, cool stuff!

 

Edit: And the system worked! Zoroark went from 200+ packs to 20~ in one day. That's what I'm talking about! :)

yeah thats all good for you but for me it resulted in my net worth dropping about 980 packs...

But about the rest i already posted an idea,

naturally they want their newest packs to sell well and if you could get the newest packs with old codes why would you bother to buy new packs.

So the thing i proposed was: let codes unlock the set they are from and all previous ones but not newer ones...

so with a FF code you would be able to, at the moment, get all available packs. but with a boundaries crossed pack you would only be able to get BC packs and previous sets.

that way older cards wouldn't get so relatively "rare" and new codes would still be the most valuable.

but the response i got was that this would be counter active to their goal of simplefying the redemption process...

i don't know why it can't be just a tiny bit more difficult that just entering a code but oh well...

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I agree that the values of some cards like tropical beach are insane, but I think that there is nothing wrong with that since cards that are that limited in ability to obtain should have high values.

 

I also think that it is possible to play TCG online competitively without investing a lot of money. I started in April and have redeemed about 1 and a half dozen booster codes and have been able to build a collection that supports 4 decent decks. My win loss is around 50% for each deck (on the most part) and I consider that to be good given my investment in the game.

 

As far as hoarding and inflation go, unless every player with a beach or FA decides to ***** them to jack up prices it shouldn't be a big deal. Not to mention if no one will pay what they are asking then they either keep hoarding or the price will have to go down. Only collectors will pay high values for cards that are otherwise un-needed to be competitive, and I speculate that collectors can fall into the hoarder category and are able to pay those high prices.

 

Since I'm relatively new I may be wrong about all that, but right now it seems the only way to trade is buy packs with codes and I think that's as far as real money should go with this game. Hopefully tournaments will continue to offer tradeable cards.

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Good Afternoon Diamond:

 

Tropical Beach is overpriced and overrated, and FA's look very nice in vanity decks. Full arts do not make a competitive deck. I like to build decks based on the top ten "meta" decks in play, but will not go out of my way, or spend real cash, to make an exact replica. Some of the results have been very interesting, and I have won on demand tournaments with these "rogue" decks. Having said that, when XY came out, I did acquire about 75 codes from our local pokemon club, from other players who don't play online. I started trading rare cards for packs, and expanded my collection exponentially by trading. Just the other day I got 14 packs for the FA Yveltal. My favourite tourney format is theme decks, because its fair for everyone, involves a lot of luck, and players can buy theme decks with their daily login rewards (tokens). When making trades for packs I like to follow the price list published by War_Greymon and his friends from Top cut. They seem almost reasonable, with a few exceptions (50 packs for Beach)! I just want to remind everyone that SR's and EX's are available from free five packs, and with a bit of patience and luck, you will be able to build competitive decks for little or no real money!

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As far as hoarding and inflation go, unless every player with a beach or FA decides to ***** them to jack up prices it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

See the guy above you. He had a high % of all Zoroark's before they put them in tournies. Beach's are becoming harder to come by every day.

 

Tropical Beach is overpriced and overrated

 

It literally is the difference between Blastoise/Keldeo EX being T2 or T1. It's a really strong card. Not sure what the rest of your post is talking about.

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To EVSDIAMOND:

It's all luck. If you don't want to spend 300 packs to get a deck then just open some packs and trade up what you want. Patience is a thing ya know.

 

Or perhaps you actually get some crucial pieces to build the deck you want. As well you could just use what you get and build off of that. Like I said it all comes down to luck, or money. It's Supply / Demand. You can't just limit things because they are getting too expensive, that isn't how the world works.

 

 

To OP:

I'm not sure if you noticed but Pokémon is booming at the moment. Places are selling out left right and center. You can thanks X and Y for that. The franchise has seemingly been renewed maybe even more popular than ever. Prices will go up because more people will want something that you can't get easily any more (Ie. Base set 1 booster boxes going for 600+$ vs a XY booster box for 80$).

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To EVSDIAMOND:

It's all luck. If you don't want to spend 300 packs to get a deck then just open some packs and trade up what you want. Patience is a thing ya know.

 

Or perhaps you actually get some crucial pieces to build the deck you want. As well you could just use what you get and build off of that. Like I said it all comes down to luck, or money. It's Supply / Demand. You can't just limit things because they are getting too expensive, that isn't how the world works.

 

 

To OP:

I'm not sure if you noticed but Pokémon is booming at the moment. Places are selling out left right and center. You can thanks X and Y for that. The franchise has seemingly been renewed maybe even more popular than ever. Prices will go up because more people will want something that you can't get easily any more (Ie. Base set 1 booster boxes going for 600+$ vs a XY booster box for 80$).

 

Fyi I am ESVDiamond and OP. I also have no problems with cards myself, I have 4x of every EX, 3x Tropical Beach, and 50+ packs unopened at any given time. I have every single T1 and T2 deck, and don't need any more cards. I realized this issue when I hit that point and realized it's best to just sit on everything.

 

I do know Pokemon in in a growth phase right now, but things like snowballing costs on several cards can be controlled online and is good for the health of the community. Your 2nd part of your post holds no relevance as you are using Base Set 1st Edition boxes as a point of reference, while PTCGO has nothing comparable to that.

 

I understand fully how supply and demand works, and right now there is a nice supply and demand of the big ticket cards, however that supply is being hoarded. If you don't think so see the guy a couple posts up that likely had 50+% of the promo Zoroark's on the entire server. In any market there has to be a reason to keep supply moving, and once you have 4x of all you need on this game there is not. In the real world additional $ is the motivator, however in this game it is not so there needs to be built in systems to keep the supply moving and not just sitting.

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I don't know why people gripe about people owning Beach. Isn't it usable by BOTH players when active? How is this only benefiting the owner? I don't know why anyone is complaining.

 

Edit: I see the reason people would gripe now. It's not a matter of losing the benefit of the card. It's about the fact that people with Beach can make better Blastoise/Keldeo decks than those without. Excluding this, though, I see no other 'advantages' a player with Beach might have over a player without it.

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I don't know why people gripe about people owning Beach. Isn't it usable by BOTH players when active? How is this only benefiting the owner? I don't know why anyone is complaining.

 

Edit: I see the reason people would gripe now. It's not a matter of losing the benefit of the card. It's about the fact that people with Beach can make better Blastoise/Keldeo decks than those without. Excluding this, though, I see no other 'advantages' a player with Beach might have over a player without it.

 

If your deck relies on an opponent having a certain card it's not a good strat. No one is complaining about the effect of Beach, it's that if you want to make certain T1 decks such as Blastoise/Keldeo EX it is required to be a top deck. Since Beach cannot be pulled from packs, there is a limited supply that gets more limited every day.

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Beach is limited in real life too.

No real life packs can be bought to get the card.

 

I don't know why people keep telling me things I already know. Beach is also $600+ in real life, if you can find one. It's beneficial to no one but the people hoarding them.

 

From my understanding Pokemon International has always been a company that disliked super high value single cards needed for competitive play. While this is a hard problem to solve IRL, it's easy online. The Zoroark/Garchomp EX tournament prizes showed it worked. 200+ Packs on Zoroark to less than 10. That's good for every unlimited player.

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