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Remove EX cards from AI decks


I Tsunayoshi I

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Self explanatory since an EX card turns an already challenging match into a near guaranteed win for the AI on higher difficulty levels. It also isnt anywhere resembling fair when the only decks allowed are Theme decks which get overpowered easily by said EX cards.

 

EDIT: Correction. EX cards are effectively guaranteed wins in TC mode for the AIs. Theme Decks rely far too heavily on luck to win even optimal matchups due to the overall power of EX cards in general.

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I definitely agree with this. The fire deck for instance, contains Entei EX with multiple copies. There is at least one deck with Darkrai EX in multiple copies, and another with Kyogre EX. These cards are incredibly strong, some needing only one energy to attack with 30+ damage, and when there are multiple copies and possibly multiple types of EX pokemon, and they set one or more on their first turn when your best card is a 60-70 hp basic, there's no way to win.

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I definitely agree with this. The fire deck for instance, contains Entei EX with multiple copies. There is at least one deck with Darkrai EX in multiple copies, and another with Kyogre EX. These cards are incredibly strong, some needing only one energy to attack with 30+ damage, and when there are multiple copies and possibly multiple types of EX pokemon, and they set one or more on their first turn when your best card is a 60-70 hp basic, there's no way to win.

 

Only reason I've actually managed to beat the Dark/Water deck was because I was using the Basic Grass against that, and besides cheesing into a semi-optimal matchup, the deck is the only one with any sort of anti-EX option to use. Basic Water has nothing and Basic Fire doesnt either.

 

It can not be justified to give such insanely powerful cards to the bots just because someone is playing on Hard or Expert.

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True, but their strategies dont work as well on Novice or Intermediate. Never even saw an EX card on those two difficulties for that matter.

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Okay wait. I'm going to have to disagree here.

 

I think the EX cards provide a great challenge! It IS the Trainer *Challenge* after all. Why send novice players out into the PokéWorld without the knowledge of EX cards? Pardon my analogy, but that's like a Drivers Ed instructor teaching you to drive a car but doesn't allow you to use the gas pedal.

 

I appreciate when games present a difficult challenge, and it's certainly not impossible. Let's say that compared to Atlus games, the difficulty here is fair and provides good starting knowledge and expectations. Just my 2 cents!

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Okay wait. I'm going to have to disagree here.

 

I think the EX cards provide a great challenge! It IS the Trainer *Challenge* after all. Why send novice players out into the PokéWorld without the knowledge of EX cards? Pardon my analogy, but that's like a Drivers Ed instructor teaching you to drive a car but doesn't allow you to use the gas pedal.

 

I appreciate when games present a difficult challenge, and it's certainly not impossible. Let's say that compared to Atlus games, the difficulty here is fair and provides good starting knowledge and expectations. Just my 2 cents!

 

I highly disagree when we are bound strictly to Theme Decks we can not modify for ourselves, and the bots get to use high end cards and strategies that effectively turn into an instant win condition, such as Entei EX + Volcarona to effectively have the ability to **** any attempt by the player to set up.

 

If we could actually use our own constructed builds, which would allow for slightly better chances of winning based on skill over luck, then I could consider agreeing with you on the matter.

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EX cards aren't too hard to beat, especially when the AI does stupid things like retreat for no reason, it's really easy to get your stage 2 starter and sweep even on expert.

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EX cards aren't too hard to beat, especially when the AI does stupid things like retreat for no reason, it's really easy to get your stage 2 starter and sweep even on expert.

 

That may be true when they are used as stand alone heavies. That doesnt so much apply when AI has a seriously good strategy that would be amazing in a human player's hands. As already used as an example, Entei EX + Volcarona is effectively an instant win condition when I get popped for 30 and then KO's off a single lost coin flip due to Volcarona's ability to double burn damage. That ignores the fact that Grand Flame pretty much can set up another heavy hitting Fire type while being able to one shot almost everything in the theme decks at Stage 1 or lower.

 

Honestly, I dont even have a problem with the AI for Daniel in the City League effectively having a stacked deck of heavyweights that makes games on Beginner harder than they need to be.

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Okay wait. I'm going to have to disagree here.

 

I think the EX cards provide a great challenge! It IS the Trainer *Challenge* after all. Why send novice players out into the PokéWorld without the knowledge of EX cards? Pardon my analogy, but that's like a Drivers Ed instructor teaching you to drive a car but doesn't allow you to use the gas pedal.

 

 

I appreciate when games present a difficult challenge, and it's certainly not impossible. Let's say that compared to Atlus games, the difficulty here is fair and provides good starting knowledge and expectations. Just my 2 cents!

I agree here with Fembot,It is actually Trainer"Challenge" not Trainers,Go out and Win matches!I beat the Darkrai Deck with my Basic Blue deck like 9-10 Times,and I have never Lost.If you want to play against Experts,you have to play against EXs.Cause no Expert I think Now-a-Days uses Non-EX Decks(Some may do)

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I agree here with Fembot,It is actually Trainer"Challenge" not Trainers,Go out and Win matches!I beat the Darkrai Deck with my Basic Blue deck like 9-10 Times,and I have never Lost.If you want to play against Experts,you have to play against EXs.Cause no Expert I think Now-a-Days uses Non-EX Decks(Some may do)

 

I do not see the challenge in playing against a deck that has a ridiculously fast set up that is an INSTANT win condition against the Basic decks. That removes skill from the equation, which means that there is no challenge.

 

Also referencing the Dark Water deck over and over is a very weak defense in favor of keeping EX pokemon in those decks. Darkrai spends more time Benched so the AI can use the ability for the rest of its pokemon, and the Kyogre takes too long to set up with the dual energy in play. The deck itself even to the eyes of someone that has only recently come back has a blatantly obvious weakness that nullifies its use in trying to make the idea of an EX deck versus a Basic Type deck look anything else but unfair.

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Well, I'd agree with the argument if the AIs were actually intelligent.

Quite so often they play against themselves.

However I'd point out again the issue of not being able to use competitive decks on Trainer Challenge.

It would solve tens of minor issues people have and actually help players practice seriously.

Plus, it has to be a fairly easy fix anyway.

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Well, I'd agree with the argument if the AIs were actually intelligent.

Quite so often they play against themselves.

However I'd point out again the issue of not being able to use competitive decks on Trainer Challenge.

It would solve tens of minor issues people have and actually help players practice seriously.

Plus, it has to be a fairly easy fix anyway.

 

So that brings up one thing they could do, give the bots decks that are so good that it doesnt take intelligence to set up, such as the Entei combo already mentioned. The bot doesnt have to have a clue as to what its really doing. It win the moment it gets two cards on the field. Of course, as I've stated before, this is not a real challenge to beat. Its a test of how long your luck holds out as said combo is so easy to set up on field, that it happens before any of Basic Theme Decks have a chance to set up, as they are solely based on getting out high power evos. This is NOT a viable solution because as already stated, there is no challenge in something that is a sole test of chance and probability.

 

EX Pokemon in general put the Theme Decks at significant disadvantage to begin with as standalone cards just due to their power and the fact that they drop with the ease of any basic stage pokemon. Now put an EX Pokemon into an easily set up combo, that doesnt even require effort to set up, unlike trying to put out that Serperior, or Emboar, or Samurott that is the heart of their effective offense, and you effectively take away the Theme Decks ability to compete.

 

Honestly, if a bot like Mick (The AI with the Entei/Volcarona deck) already creates a matchup that ignores the deck being played outright to create a matchup solely decided by luck, how does that bode for one like Daniel (Zekrom/Terrakion on Beginner) or the others from the City Champ level that are supposed to be so called "pros?" Where exactly is the skill and the challenge in hoping that everything goes wrong for the bots that have legitimately built decks so that the player's Theme Deck can do more than just last a couple turns? As it stands with the standard that is set right now, I could make the case that it was intended that the Devs may not have wanted players to get all of the free packs they promised for getting 4 stars against all the bots in the first place.

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I don't believe having the word "challenge" in the name is grounds for overpowered cards. The trainer "challenge" has never really been a challenge and always about luck, as long as we are forced to use unbelievably bad theme decks it will be all luck based.

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I don't believe having the word "challenge" in the name is grounds for overpowered cards. The trainer "challenge" has never really been a challenge and always about luck, as long as we are forced to use unbelievably bad theme decks it will be all luck based.

 

At least if you play above Intermediate its like that. I pretty much stick to Basic Green (in non-pure Fire matchups) cause its got the best chances of winning once you jump into Hard and see all the EX Pokemon coming out to play

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My point was more to suggest that being able to use custom decks in trainer challenge would perhaps nullify the problem easier than them taking out these cards It is also a much needed feature of that game anyway. Do you see this working for you or not?

 

I do believe that it is really easy for the AIs to mess up and lose by themselves in many cases, enough to say that there is not much of an issue. I also think winning against them is equal parts a matter of strategy and a matter of luck, but skill does matter. Plus, the EXs in trainer challenge is a good way for the game to show new players how awesome the EXs are. It's advertisement. And there's nothing wrong and nobody holding you back from only using the deck these opponents are weak against based on the types of Pokemon they use.

 

I don't mean to say your complaint is invalid or that you're not making a point because you most certainly do. However, I would love for the discussion to lead us to more solutions that just 'no EXs in the Trainer Challenge'. For example, I am practically shamelessly promoting the idea of having custom decks in trainer challenge, because I can see it benefiting the Trainer Challenge in sooo many ways. And it also helps in the issue discussed in this topic. However, an argument against my suggestion would be for example that when you start out, you only have so many cards, none of which are really holding up well against EXs. I don't know; I'm still pretty sure most people could make better decks out of the free decks so that they can fight better in Trainer Challenge. It's just an idea.

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My point was more to suggest that being able to use custom decks in trainer challenge would perhaps nullify the problem easier than them taking out these cards It is also a much needed feature of that game anyway. Do you see this working for you or not?

 

I do believe that it is really easy for the AIs to mess up and lose by themselves in many cases, enough to say that there is not much of an issue. I also think winning against them is equal parts a matter of strategy and a matter of luck, but skill does matter. Plus, the EXs in trainer challenge is a good way for the game to show new players how awesome the EXs are. It's advertisement. And there's nothing wrong and nobody holding you back from only using the deck these opponents are weak against based on the types of Pokemon they use.

 

I don't mean to say your complaint is invalid or that you're not making a point because you most certainly do. However, I would love for the discussion to lead us to more solutions that just 'no EXs in the Trainer Challenge'. For example, I am practically shamelessly promoting the idea of having custom decks in trainer challenge, because I can see it benefiting the Trainer Challenge in sooo many ways. And it also helps in the issue discussed in this topic. However, an argument against my suggestion would be for example that when you start out, you only have so many cards, none of which are really holding up well against EXs. I don't know; I'm still pretty sure most people could make better decks out of the free decks so that they can fight better in Trainer Challenge. It's just an idea.

 

Being able to use Pre-Constructed decks would help to offset the issue of EX cards in TC mode, as that alone would allow someone to at least have a fair chance by building for a matchup and have what they need to counter if they had to go that far to garner their wins.

 

I can also agree that its very possible for the bots to take away their chances of victory, as I've seen it happen with the Dark Water build used by the round 12 bot in Gold. More times than not it will play Kyogre EX as nothing more than a chump blocker instead of ever trying to set them up for the damage they are capable of. Its also put Darkrai EX on the field which doesnt seem like a good move either.

 

Then again, that deck is fodder for Basic Green with Bouffer Bouffalant and the general power granted by a decent matchup and Serperior.

 

There are multiple ways to fix this, but if TC is to remain a Theme Deck only deal for the player, then EX Pokemon really do have no place in that sort of format as its far too easy to overpower them. This is likely to be true as well if/when the Basic Decks are updated to include cards from the new format. Of course, your solution does have its own problems as you already pointed out. The selection to start with, assuming that you start with the 5 Basic decks (Yellow, Oranage, Blue, Green, and Red), you still dont have a great selection. It doesnt get better either if you can get multiple Power Relay decks either. Then again, that could be fixed with two options. First: Besides offering up the theme decks for new players, offer up some recent packs that could be put to use in building new decks (This gives the additional benefit of enticing players into buying more packs once they see what they can get). Two: Make cards from free packs tradeable. Now new players can get into the community with more ease by being able to trade the cards they have gotten from reward packs and/or packs from the free packs on starting up, and this would again give them ability to be able to build new decks with a larger card pool more easily.

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Definitely agreed with this. If we could receive the AI's decks or could use our own decks it'd be fine, but not like this.

 

To those saying it's a challenge: it's 0 challenge. Simply because 1 of 3 things can happen:

- you lose miserably because, even if you'd play like a world pro, theme decks are simply too terrible to deal with EX cards

- you win by a tremendous stroke of luck (luck is different than skill)

- you win because the AI's idiot (that does NOT mean you're skilled, it simply means the AI's an idiot)

 

Winning vs an EX by skill happens pretty much never when using a theme deck.

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There should at least be a different deck used at each difficulty. The EX cards can't be used in Beginner or Intermediate for sure, as those two levels are designed to be easier.

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Hello trainers,

 

I will make sure the development team is aware of this suggestion/feedback. As always, we love to see your input!

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There should at least be a different deck used at each difficulty. The EX cards can't be used in Beginner or Intermediate for sure, as those two levels are designed to be easier.

 

It doesnt make much sense to use them on Hard or Expert when most EX pokemon have the ability to overwhelm the Basic decks in the hands of someone halfway competent.

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I mean, it is Expert. It's not supposed to be a two-minute game where you sweep. There should be a strong challenge to it that you can't just beat using the strategy that wins against the Intermediate levels.

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The point of the trainer challenge is to provide fair, fun games that theme decks can actually go toe to toe with.

 

That being said, I have no problem repeatedly beating Trainer challenge opponent's with the theme decks on expert, if anything, the opponent's decks should be harder on this level to make the games less boring.

I've recently been trying to get all of my theme decks to at last 36 wins. Today I took the old Basic Red deck with Typhlosion and went 20/1 losing to Calvin for obvious reasons.

I'm sure there are plenty of other trainers who can easily beat this "challenge" or expert mode.

 

If you are playing the Trainer challenge to win then why not play on Easy?

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Must say I've finished the trainers challenge and defeated them all on hard mode, some AI had an advantage but then again if you were able to setup they would do really stupid things as mentioned. It's true that the cards they use make it really difficult to win with just a theme deck but it is possible to win. Some theme decks are impossible to win against some but that's another story, you will have to find out which works the best against which AI and then it's not that difficult anymore.

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ok this is a bit silly, but i think the game is intended for 1) people to play again other people 2) able to trade their card and test their deck to complement real life play. Now, the trainer challenge is a horrendous add on and use to introduce new player, but at the end, it really have no replay value whatsoever, after that 45 pack, you are done, now go spend some money and play like the any game are intended to be. If you want "challenge" and you looking for AI.. wrong place. Do it with real people, like the game is inteded for, they dont make stupid move (well I cant really attest to that). And No, free card should not be tradable - it upset the trading foundation that is/had already establish. People spend money to trade, if all the sudden free players could trade, it is absolutely unfair for player whose up to this point had spend money to play. Dev. would never do that. To cap on your issue, it does NOT matter if EX is there or not, because at the end, you will get your 45 pack one way or another, luck, time.. etc. but if you re cryign about "skill", play some real people instead, complaining about EX is a bit... nitpicky.

 

Ps - I do like the idea of us being able to modify our deck for TC, more dynamic to the already bad option that is TC.

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