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Need some help tweaking my Charizard/Ninetails deck.


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20 February 2019 - 10:01 PM

#1

Camkitsune

    Rookie Trainer

  • Camkitsune

So, I'm willing to bet that the consensus is TEU Ninetails isn't a very good card... 

However, since I'm the kind of nutter who'd build a One With Nothing deck, its general lack-of-good-ness was not enough to deter me from constructing the deck below:

 

2x Oranguru (SUM)

 

4x Charmander (TEU)

2x Charmeleon (TEU)

4x Charizard (TEU)

 

2x Moltres (LOT)

 

1x Victini {*} (DRM)  <<Going to try replacing him with a 3rd Oranguru to see if consistency improves>>

 

2x Vulpix (TEU)

2x Ninetails (TEU)

 

2x Energy Recycle

2x Nest Ball

3x Order Pad

2x Pokemon Communication

3x Rare Candy

3x Ultra Ball

 

3x Viridian Forest (TEU)  <<It'd be 2 + a Lusamine if she weren't banned>>

 

2x Brock's Grit

2x Cynthia 

1x Erica's Hospitality

4x Lillie'

 

14x Fire Energy

 

 

The resulting deck gets off the ground surprisingly consistently, with the major deciding factor being whether it can keep the pressure on or not.   The central combo of Viridian Forest, Ninetails and Oranguru is energy-intensive enough to warrant the somewhat high Energy count, especially with Charizard also drawing from it.

 

The biggest problem I've been having with this iteration is a rather weak opening - Moltres synergizes really well with Oranguru and Viridian Forest in terms of getting more use out of Instruct and making it harder to stall out by dragging out an energy-less Oranguru, but 30 damage in this environment doesn't feel great, even if it's for 1 energy.

The deck can also brick if it runs out of energy and Brock/Energy Recycle isn't available, although the added benefit of Viridian Forest is that it can enable dumping cards without having to replace them with an energy for more Instruct draws.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


Edited by Camkitsune, 21 February 2019 - 12:59 AM.

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20 February 2019 - 11:37 PM

#2

SuperGamerMTT

    Rookie Trainer

  • SuperGamerMTT

Wait what 8 Charizards


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21 February 2019 - 12:41 AM

#3

SandaledOtter

    Elite Trainer

  • SandaledOtter

Wait what 8 Charizards

Charmander, of course.

 

Suggestion 1 to OP: use the deck export button to get a deck list in your clipboard.


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21 February 2019 - 01:01 AM

#4

Camkitsune

    Rookie Trainer

  • Camkitsune

Suggestion 1 to OP: use the deck export button to get a deck list in your clipboard.

 

Fair enough.  
In my defense, typing everything out usually doubles as a chance to review all of the cards in the deck.


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21 February 2019 - 01:50 AM

#5

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

3x Viridian Forest (TEU)  <<It'd be 2 + a Lusamine if she weren't banned>>

Lusamine is only banned from Expanded- you can still use her in Standard.

 

You're a bit low on supporters.  It's true that many successful decks have lately gone this low, but that's because they use Jirachi to vastly improve their odds of drawing trainer cards.   I strongly suggest upping to ~10.

 

I also think a copy of DrM charizard has a place in these kind of decks.  It's slower, but more efficient, and in some ways easier to build up to KOs with.


Edited by SuperStone, 21 February 2019 - 01:51 AM.

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21 February 2019 - 04:33 AM

#6

Camkitsune

    Rookie Trainer

  • Camkitsune

Lusamine is only banned from Expanded- you can still use her in Standard.

I'm going to have to check the notes for the reasoning behind that one...  

You're a bit low on supporters.  It's true that many successful decks have lately gone this low, but that's because they use Jirachi to vastly improve their odds of drawing trainer cards.   I strongly suggest upping to ~10.

I'll try a few rounds with four Cynthias and a Lusamine - I'd add in another Erika, too, but I currently only have one copy.

One of the rather annoying things about the current iteration is that Lillie seems to come in clumps more often than I'd like - Cynthias would presumably help with that.

I also think a copy of DrM charizard has a place in these kind of decks.  It's slower, but more efficient, and in some ways easier to build up to KOs with

In this particular case I'd have to disagree.  The principle reason for TEM Charizard being in the deck are that it doesn't need an energy drop to attack - if you need the energy in-hand for a Nine Temptations activation you can still attack with him.

There is already a bit of a problem with the deck not coming out fast enough - TEM Charizard can Rare Candy out of a Charmander with 0 attached energy and attack for 180 damage, and that kind of response time isn't fast enough to deal with some of the more obnoxious set-ups (I'm looking at you, Zekrom-Pikachu).


Edited by Camkitsune, 21 February 2019 - 04:38 AM.

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21 February 2019 - 11:05 AM

#7

Chasista

    Elite Trainer

  • Chasista
I suggest you to add number of each card in the list or easier, Export from the game ********* be able to copy the deck easily (I do often to check decks) to see it ourselves and to know which is the exact card you're playing. I know there's only one ********** LOT and one Oranguru in SUM but there's 2 Charmander for example in TEU and while the feeling is you're playing #12 with 70HP, if you're playing #11 with 50HP we can say: hey, Elm's lecture is good for the deck!


Charizard deck needs a couple Jirachi TEU 99 to be "top" and maintaining the deck non GX helps with the prizes trade. You have A Ninetales which is not bad tho so there go my thoughts:

I don't think Moltres is very good itself
2 Oranguru, even 1 should be fine. I actually would replace Moltres+Oranguru for a 2-2 Magcargo for example.
Ditto {*} fits in this deck.
TEU Absol is a useful tech for some games.
2 Order pad and one Brock, enough.
Heat factory {*} will help you. I would go with Shrine of punishment if no A Ninetales GX, but Viridian is a good one too.
I do like Max potion in the deck, unless you feel you get 1HKOs all the time, then doesn't worth of course. Or you can go with Shrine of punishment+Max potion to heal the Ninetales.
No Guzma? No party. You need a couple at least, better 3, to counter the opponent's Guzma into Oranguru and Nnetales. You can add Switch as you can find it with Ninetales.
I would keep Victini {*}, and I like Lysandre {*}, is nothing needed to make a Top list but is very funny to play :lol:
Choice band helps you to achieve bigger numbers. Rescue stretcher is a very good card. Some Char decks play 3-1-3 with 2 R stretcher.
Will work with 13 energies. Having Viridian, probably can even work with 12 or 11.

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21 February 2019 - 08:11 PM

#8

Camkitsune

    Rookie Trainer

  • Camkitsune

I don't think Moltres is very good itself

On the one hand, Moltres is definitely sub-optimal.  On the other, it fills a specific niche, and I haven't been able to find something else that does so better.

Moltres is included for two reasons: 

1) It's a fairly beefy basic Pokemon with a 1 energy attack (the damage isn't great but I haven't found a better option).  It's usually needed as a buffer to keep Charmander from dying to things like TEU Zapdos.

2) it works surprisingly well in conjunction with Oranguru and Viridian Forest for combing through the deck early-game.

2 Oranguru, even 1 should be fine. I actually would replace Moltres+Oranguru for a 2-2 Magcargo for example.

Oranguru is a bit too critical for me to want to cut two copies out, but swapping Moltres out for a 1-1 (along with Ditto) has worked out fine.  I originally had Magcargo in instead of Moltres, but switched them out due to poor performance.

2 Order pad and one Brock, enough

The Order Pads are definitely more redundant with Magcargo.

I'm reluctant to drop a Brock because the deck really does burn through energy quickly.

Heat factory {*} will help you. I would go with Shrine of punishment if no A Ninetales GX, but Viridian is a good one too.

I'd be running Heat Factory if I had a copy; I'm working on trading for one.  I have a similar reason for not running A. Ninetales, in addition to it being a bit overplayed (and an easy target for Guzma since it can't attack).

Viridian has a ton of synergy with Oranguru and Ninetails - since every deck needs a stadium, it seemed to be the card that worked best with what I was going for.

I personally really dislike Shrine of Punishment because it's a bit too passive and only really effectively hates on certain decks - It could be a good piece of tech but it's a bit too hard to squeeze it in.

No Guzma? No party. You need a couple at least, better 3, to counter the opponent's Guzma into Oranguru and Nnetales. You can add Switch as you can find it with Ninetales.

Switch is something I've been considering but am just not sure what I can safely drop for a couple.

love Guzma, but he's kind of redundant with TEM Ninetales - TEM Ninetales being the original impetus for building the deck.  The main reason I'd want to run him would be for the effect of Switch - but Switch has the advantage of working before/after Lillie and Cynthia.

I would keep Victini {*}, and I like Lysandre {*}, is nothing needed to make a Top list but is very funny to play

That's why I've kept Victini {*} in.

Lysandre {*} would be some interesting tech but it's another card I don't actually have yet (and unlike Heat Factory I don't need it badly enough trade for it yet).

Choice band helps you to achieve bigger numbers. Rescue stretcher is a very good card. Some Char decks play 3-1-3 with 2 R stretcher.

Certainly worth a try.

Will work with 13 energies. Having Viridian, probably can even work with 12 or 11. 

Going below 13 resulted in Charizard running out of energy to pull out of the deck (before I could draw a Recycle/Brock) way more often than I liked.  I'll try it with 13 to see if that works better.

 

This is what I've ended up with.

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******
 
##Pokémon - 17
 
* 1 Ditto {*} LOT 154
* 2 Oranguru SUM 113
* 3 Charmander TEU 12
* 1 Slugma LOT 43
* 1 Victini {*} DRM 7
* 1 Vulpix TEU 15
* 2 Charmeleon TEU 13
* 1 Magcargo CES 24
* 2 Ninetales TEU 16
* 3 Charizard TEU 14
 
##Trainer Cards - 30
 
* 1 Lusamine CIN 96
* 2 Viridian Forest TEU 156
* 2 Pokémon Communication TEU 152
* 4 Lillie UPR 125
* 3 Ultra Ball DEX 102
* 3 Rare Candy SUM 129
* 3 Nest Ball SUM 123
* 4 Cynthia UPR 119
* 2 Energy Recycler GRI 123
* 1 Brock's Grit TEU 135
* 1 Erika’s Hospitality TEU 140
* 2 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 2 Switch BCR 135
 
##Energy - 13
 
* 13 Fire Energy BLWEnergy 4
 
Total Cards - 60
 
****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******
 
 
EDIT: After playing several test-matches with the above list I ended up having to roll most of them back. 

Edited by Camkitsune, 21 February 2019 - 09:24 PM.

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22 February 2019 - 11:59 AM

#9

Chasista

    Elite Trainer

  • Chasista

My bad about Ninetales. I mixed up the TEU Ninetales with the Fairytales GX so I was actually thinking in to get 2 Item cards when evolving and different strategy. This end up in some weird tips about Shrine of punishment, getting Switch and so. I apologize.

 

Last list seems pretty tuned. Did work better than initial as it's now? Does Magcargo worth?


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22 February 2019 - 10:53 PM

#10

Camkitsune

    Rookie Trainer

  • Camkitsune

My bad about Ninetales. I mixed up the TEU Ninetales with the Fairytales GX so I was actually thinking in to get 2 Item cards when evolving and different strategy. This end up in some weird tips about Shrine of punishment, getting Switch and so. I apologize.

 

Last list seems pretty tuned. Did work better than initial as it's now? Does Magcargo worth?

Some of the changes helped, some didn't.

 

That was the A. Ninteales I thought you meant - I really, really don't like that card, especially since it pops up as part of the Gardivoir GX deck everyone's running alongside Sylveon GX.  I have an issue with the implementation of GX cards in general, so I tend to shy away from them.

 

Running out of Charizards was a much bigger problem with only 3 copies, while Rescue Stretcher had a really, really annoying habit of appearing in my hand in the early-game.

 

I think the main problem I was having with Magcargo was down to user issue more than anything else, so I'm going to thread him back in.

 

Without Moltres I was losing a lot more Charmanders to Switchspam Zapdos and other early-game aggressors - in addition to the utility of getting energy out of my hand, attacking for cheap, and being easy to switch, it can soak a decent amount of early-game damage while doing just enough chip to be useful.  I might take another skim through the database for a better alternative.

 

Heat Factory has been a godsend.

 

Since I'm frankly having problems squeezing everything in my deck, my solution for the Switch problem was to replace Cynthia with Tate & Liza.  This has actually been a pretty significant improvement, since losing out one card on Shuffle effect is less of an issue with Oranguru.

 

Current deck list is as follows:

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

 

##Pokémon - 20

 

* 1 Ditto {*} LOT 154

* 2 Oranguru SUM 113

* 4 Charmander TEU 12

* 2 Moltres LOT 38

* 1 Slugma CES 23

* 1 Victini {*} DRM 7

* 1 Vulpix TEU 15

* 2 Charmeleon TEU 13

* 1 Magcargo CES 24

* 1 Ninetales TEU 16

* 4 Charizard TEU 14

 

##Trainer Cards - 27

 

* 1 Lusamine CIN 96

* 1 Heat Factory {*} LOT 178

* 2 Viridian Forest TEU 156

* 2 Pokémon Communication TEU 152

* 4 Lillie UPR 125

* 3 Rare Candy SUM 129

* 4 Tate & Liza CES 148

* 2 Nest Ball SUM 123

* 2 Energy Recycler GRI 123

* 2 Ultra Ball FCO 113

* 2 Brock's Grit TEU 135

* 2 Order Pad UPR 131

 

##Energy - 13

 

* 13 Fire Energy BLWEnergy 4

 

Total Cards - 60


Edited by Camkitsune, 22 February 2019 - 10:53 PM.

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10 March 2019 - 08:07 PM

#11

x1ares1x

    Rookie Trainer

  • x1ares1x
This is what I have been running in expanded and have had amazing success.

Pokémon
4 charmader TEU
2 Charmeleon TEU
4 Charizard TEU
2 Jirachi TEU
2 Vulpix TEU
1 Ninetails( Primal Clash)

Trainers
4 Guzma
3 Cynthia
3 Lillie
3 Nest Ball
3 Ultra Ball
4 Rare Candy
1 Heat Factory
2 Blacksmith
2 Rescue Stretcher
4 Brocks Grit
2 Escape Board
1 Energy Recycler
1 Energy Recycler system

Energy

2 Burning Energy
10 Fire Energy
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