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buddyglass

stats on tournament winners?

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buddyglass

Guessing this data isn't available, but anybody know (even roughly) what kinds of decks typically win the 8 team (Expanded) tournaments?  Or is there enough variety among the winners to not identify a trend?

 

I'm still quite new, but I've noticed a few recurring "archetypes" among those that whip me in versus play.

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Otakutron

Online tournaments or the ones held using the physical cards?

 

I don't know of one for the former, but the latter can be found in a few places.  Unofficial sites are usually more prompt and tend to go well beyond the Top 8 (Top 8 out of 800 can be misleading about the metagame), but you can find the just the Top 8 for major tournaments on the official site here:

 

https://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/pokemon-events/championship-series-event-results/

 

This includes both Expanded and Standard Format events, though the latter are more common.  It also covers the Top 8 for each age bracket.

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Felidae_

General speaking every deck can make it to the final of a 8 men queue. Keep in mind that the contestant of those tournaments are totally random, so you can face players with a much higher rating than you and also with a much lower. If you are lucky you face only “bad” decks on your road and dodge the good ones.

 

If you play a meta deck (i.e. the ones that Otakutron posted) chances are pretty good that you'll at least get to the finals of most 8 man tournaments you enter.

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buddyglass

Online tournaments or the ones held using the physical cards?

I was actually asking about the 8-team ones held in TCG online.

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buddyglass

Here are stats on the top 8 from worlds.  For energy type, I only considered cards that could be powered up; some decks have cards in them only for the abilities (i.e. the decks lacks the necessary energy to actually charge them up).

#1: Psychic/Metal, 8 GX/EX, 7 energy

#2: Psychic, 6 GX/EX, 10 energy

#3: Fighting, 8 GX/EX, 16 energy

#4: Grass/Lightning, 6 GX/EX, 14 energy

#5: Grass/Lightning, 7 GX/EX, 14 energy

#6: Fighting, 5 GX/EX, 14 energy

#7: Grass/Lightning, 7 GX/EX, 15 energy

#8: Grass, 10 GX/EX, 7 energy

 

All eight had at least one Tapu Lele GX, and five of the eight had at least one Oranguru.

Trainers in order of # of decks they appeared in at least once:

 

8 Guzma

8 Professor Sycamore

8 Float Stone

7 Field Blower

7 Cynthia

7 Ultra Ball

6 N

6 Choice Band

6 Rescue Stretcher

6 Max Elixir

5 Mysterious Treasure

4 Parallel City

3 Puzzle of Time

3 Super Rod

2 Brigette

2 Evosoda

2 Lillie

2 Acro Bike

2 Brooklet Hill

2 Fighting Fury Belt

2 Pal Pad

1 Enhanced Hammer

1 Town Map

1 Scorched Earth

1 Escape Rope

1 Beast Ring

1 Acerola

1 Counter Catcher

1 Max Potion

My takeaway from this is that there's a lot more tool usage (and removal) going on at this level of play than I usually see here in TCGO.

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buddyglass

Another take-away:  it may be possible to have success w/ a deck that lacks GX/EX cards, but the at the highest levels you need them.  Specifically, about 5-10 of them, one of which must be Tapu Lele.

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Sakura150612

Another take-away:  it may be possible to have success w/ a deck that lacks GX/EX cards, but the at the highest levels you need them.  Specifically, about 5-10 of them, one of which must be Tapu Lele.

For the most part, the only EX/GX cards that are really a necessity are the utility ones (mostly Tapu Lele-GX; Shaymin-EX is also really good while being significantly more affordable than Lele. Jirachi-EX has the same ability as Lele if you're short on budget, although it's much more frail and doesn't have a useful attack).

 

Other than that, unless your deck is specifically centered around a GX card (such as Rayquaza-GX) you don't need any.

 

Honestly, based on my experience from this round of pack grinding (I do that for the release of each new set), annoying 1 prize Pokemon gave me the most trouble. GX focused decks mostly just gave me free wins by giving me the advantage in the prize trade (I play Night March so I use a lot of non-GX attackers).

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Sadra

For the most part, the only EX/GX cards that are really a necessity are the utility ones (mostly Tapu Lele-GX; Shaymin-EX is also really good while being significantly more affordable than Lele. Jirachi-EX has the same ability as Lele if you're short on budget, although it's much more frail and doesn't have a useful attack).

 

Other than that, unless your deck is specifically centered around a GX card (such as Rayquaza-GX) you don't need any.

 

Honestly, based on my experience from this round of pack grinding (I do that for the release of each new set), annoying 1 prize Pokemon gave me the most trouble. GX focused decks mostly just gave me free wins by giving me the advantage in the prize trade (I play Night March so I use a lot of non-GX attackers).

Sorry but I have to disagree, at least in the expanded format, the top tier decks mainly consist of both GX/EX and non-GX pokemon that are useful in different situations (e.g Zorogarb, archies, psychic toolboxs). In most occasions, GX/EX cards are preferred while certain non-GX cards serve as useful techs against unfavourable matchups. 

 

Although many non-GX pokemon are decent attackers, 1 Prize pokemon decks are nowhere near competitive in expanded. They might still be great in standard due to the formats slower pace, limited options (mainly draw power) and mostly, lack of ability lock. The reason why these decks are not good in expanded is because without the addition of lele or shaymins, these decks are very inconsistent. If you add these you will have a huge disadvantage, missing the chance to use shrine, which is extremely important in building up damage (especially with the new mr mime) and giving a easy 2 prize since guzma is way more accessible in expanded since vs seeker and compressors are available. This is the same with nm as it not only auto-losses to oricorio or karen (at the hands of good players), suffers from inconsistency without shaymins (but benching them can be risky), prone to spread or bench damage decks, and performs poorly against one prize decks.  To be honest, if you play wisely, other than nm hitting for weakness, you still have a very high chance of winning. 

 

Rayquaza will be very good post team up since its damage handles tag teams pretty well and going first in a bo3 format against most decks puts your opponent in a very bad spot. 

 

In summary, you will definitely need EX/GX cards (not just utility ones) to do well in tournaments. You can build casual fun decks revolving around non-GX pokemon (e.g the new hitmonchan mr mime shrine deck is decent) but these will never excel. 

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Otakutron

Decks composed of purely single-Prize Pokémon are nowhere near competitive*... but I think Sakura150612 didn't mean  those, given her paragraph stating how cards like Shaymin-EX (ROS) and Tapu Lele-GX are pretty much needed in every deck.

 

Looking at relatively recent results, you can win with certain decks that focus mostly on single-Prize Pokémon.  Things still seem to be in favor of the decks which focus on specific Pokémon-EX/GX, but we're seeing solid finishes by at least some that don't.

 

*Edit: To be clear, in the EXPANDED Format.  I know it is the thread's main topic but... easily misread thing is easily misread.

Edited by Otakutron
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Sakura150612

Decks composed of purely single-Prize Pokémon are nowhere near competitive... but I think Sakura150612 didn't mean  those, given her paragraph stating how cards like Shaymin-EX (ROS) and Tapu Lele-GX are pretty much needed in every deck.

 

Looking at relatively recent results, you can win with certain decks that focus mostly on single-Prize Pokémon.  Things still seem to be in favor of the decks which focus on specific Pokémon-EX/GX, but we're seeing solid finishes by at least some that don't.

Yeah, that is what I was reffering to.

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Felidae_

 

 

 

Decks composed of purely single-Prize Pokémon are nowhere near competitive.

Sorry, but this is sending the wrong signals and in addition it's simply wrong.

 

 

 

IF we are talking about a 500+ player tournament where you play best of three, then I'd agree with you (at least for 95% of the meta).

 

However, we are talking about an 8 player queue in Pokemon TCGO here. A deck without EX / GX Pokemon can just as easily win those.

 

 

 

Here are three example lists for the Expanded format:

 

 

 

Alolan Exeggutor

 

 

 

The deck is quite resilient, easy to setup and can hit popular meta decks (i.e. Archie's Blastoise for a ton of damage). You can customize the list to your own preference (i.e tweak the number of Seviper, add Oranguru, etc.) without any trouble.

 

I've seen the deck a lot in high ELO games and it took a respectable 38th place at the Dallas Regionals, so it's more than suited to win a tournament online.

 

 

 

Pokemon - 13

 

4 Alolan Exeggutor FLI 2

 

4 Exeggcute PLF 4

 

1 Mr. Mime BKT 97

 

1 Sudowoodo GRI 66

 

1 Buzzwole FLI 77

 

1 Marshadow SLG 45

 

1 Seviper BUS 50

 

 

 

Trainer - 36

 

4 Professor Sycamore BKP 107

 

2 Guzma BUS 115

 

1 N FCO 105

 

1 Colress PLS 118

 

1 Professor Kukui SUM 128

 

4 VS Seeker PHF 109

 

4 Ultra Ball SUM 135

 

4 Battle Compressor PHF 92

 

4 Hypnotoxic Laser PLS 123

 

2 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130

 

1 Computer Search BCR 137

 

3 Choice Band GRI 121

 

1 Float Stone BKT 137

 

3 Virbank City Gym PLS 126

 

1 Energy Recycle System CES 128

 

 

 

Energy - 11

 

5 Grass Energy 1

 

1 Rainbow Energy SUM 137

 

1 Fire Energy 2

 

1 Psychic Energy 5

 

1 Darkness Energy 7

 

1 Fairy Energy 9

 

1 Fighting Energy 6

 

 

 

Vespiqueen + Flareon (or NM / LM)

 

 

 

Although this is a good example of a deck that can benefit from adding 2 Shaymin and a Tapu Lele,

 

it remains a perfect example of a strong non-EX attacker that can easily OHKO a majority of the field. It's a bit tougher to set-up, as you have to put more emphasize on the sequence compared to Exeggutor, but on the plus side you get easy OHKO's and favourable prize trades.

 

Karen can be a problem, but with experience you'll learn to play around it.

 

 

 

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

 

 

 

##Pokémon - 29

 

 

 

* 4 Eevee UPR 104

 

* 4 Oranguru SUM 113

 

* 1 Mr. Mime BKT 97

 

* 1 Sudowoodo GRI 66

 

* 4 Flareon PLF 12

 

* 4 Combee AOR 9

 

* 1 Exeggcute PLF 4

 

* 4 Vespiquen AOR 10

 

* 1 Marshadow SLG 45

 

* 1 Mr. Mime PLF 47

 

* 4 Unown AOR 30

 

 

 

##Trainer Cards - 27

 

 

 

* 3 Professor Juniper PLB 84

 

* 1 N FCO 105

 

* 1 Colress PLS 135

 

* 1 Guzma BUS 115

 

* 1 Teammates PRC 160

 

* 1 Faba LOT 173

 

* 4 VS Seeker ROS 110

 

* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135

 

* 4 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92

 

* 2 Special Charge STS 105

 

* 1 Computer Search BCR 137

 

* 1 Float Stone BKT 137

 

* 2 Choice Band BUS 162

 

* 1 Parallel City BKT 145

 

 

 

##Energy - 4

 

 

 

* 4 Double Colorless Energy XY 130

 

 

 

Total Cards - 60

 

 

 

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

 

 

Mienshao Control

 

 

 

Last up is a deck that is definitely worst than the other two listed above. Mienshao was a great archetype around the time of Ancient Origins, though it has lost some of its bite over the course of time.

 

Despite that I piloted this list to a tournament win last week, because sometimes the rogue factor is enough to catch your opponent off guard.

 

I honestly wouldn't recommend playing the deck, but I wanted to include it anyway to remind us that even odd ball decks can win those 8-men queues.

 

You don't have to own the best deck in the game to be competitive, not by a long shot.

 

 

 

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

 

 

 

##Pokémon - 11

 

 

 

* 1 Eevee SUM 101

 

* 1 Mr. Mime BKT 97

 

* 1 Hawlucha FFI 63

 

* 4 Mienfoo FFI 56

 

* 3 Mienshao FFI 57

 

* 1 Leafeon PLF 11

 

 

 

##Trainer Cards - 40

 

 

 

* 3 Professor Sycamore STS 114

 

* 1 N FCO 105

 

* 2 Eco Arm AOR 71

 

* 3 Level Ball NXD 89

 

* 4 Robo Substitute Team Flare Gear PHF 102

 

* 4 Fighting Stadium FFI 90

 

* 4 Korrina FFI 95

 

* 2 Enhanced Hammer PRC 162

 

* 1 Professor's Letter BKT 146

 

* 1 Karen PR-XY XY177a

 

* 4 Focus Sash FFI 91

 

* 1 Teammates PRC 160

 

* 4 VS Seeker ROS 110

 

* 1 Field Blower GRI 125

 

* 1 Lysandre FLF 104

 

* 1 Guzma BUS 115

 

* 1 Faba LOT 173

 

* 2 Choice Band BUS 162

 

 

 

##Energy - 9

 

 

 

* 4 Fighting Energy HS 120

 

* 1 Grass Energy 1

 

* 4 Strong Energy FFI 104

 

 

 

Total Cards - 60

 

 

 

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

 

 

There are a ton of other decks that don't include any GX / EX Pokemon that I could include, but I don't have a list lying around at the moment (or in one case I don't want to share it ***.

  •  

    Alolan Ninetales / Hoopa anti GX/EX Control

  •  

    Trevenant

  •  

    Sableye + Garbodor

  •  

    (Baby) Buzzwole + Garbodor

  •  

    Tapu Koko + Dusknoir

  •  

    Raichu + Bats

  •  

    Shock Lock

  •  

    Donphan

 

 

Are any of them tier 1 or tier 2? Certainly not. Can they win games and tournaments in a format as vast as Expanded? Absolutely.

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Sakura150612

Trevenant

Yeah, as a dedicated NM player I can say that Trevenant is a dang nightmare. Item lock into Karen is ggwp. It doesn't even matter if I'm conservative with my Battle Compressors (which is usually how you deal with Karen when playing NM), since after getting item locked I plain out can't use my remaining BCs.

 

I only played against Donphan once (the one with sturdy I'm assuming) and I just barely managed to scrape a win. My one tech Shuckle-GX really saved my hide there, but I got pretty lucky too that he didn't pull a Guzma or a switching item the turn I used Wrap-GX.

 

I can't say much about RL tournaments, but as far as online 8 people events go I agree with what Felidae has pointed out here.

Edited by Sakura150612

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Sadra

Oh, sorry guys, I thought you were meaning IRL tournaments. If you meant the virtual tournaments on PTCGO I would say that many decks, not just tier 1 or 2, could possibly give you the win because the majority of contestants are really really bad, but there are chances that you face experienced and tough opponents as well. Frankly speaking, I could count the times I did not win since last year, despite using non-tier 1 decks. One of the fun parts of PTCGO is that you really can take a break from riotous beating, quaking punch, or whatever is in the meta and play some weird wacky decks while not losing constantly. 

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Sakura150612

One of the fun parts of PTCGO is that you really can take a break from riotous beating, quaking punch, or whatever is in the meta and play some weird wacky decks while not losing constantly.

 

Not too sure about taking a break from those. I haven't seen many Toads, but Zoroark-GX is just as omnipresent online as I imagine it is IRL. What gives me most trouble from Zoroark-GX though is actually not Zoroark-GX, but Alolan Muk xd otherwise I just completely destroy it with Marshadow-GX, and I can't ever get OHKO'd after I bench Sudowoodo (which is also why Alolan Muk destroys me so hard).

 

It's true that on these tournaments you also face straight up bad decks (as in, decks built from random stuff pulled from packs), but a good amount of those games are against people using serious (even if not tier 1 or 2) decks.

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Sadra

When I meant taking a break I mean I don't need to play them after hours and hours and saying those attacks turn after turn IRL. Recently I have been playing Zorogarb (which is OP asf), seismitoad/garbodor, and shock lock in the expanded format. To be honest, it gets quite boring after a while and playing mirrors all the time. PTCGO has a more diverse range of strategies and players. 

 

Yeah, nm is tough against zoroark decks despite the type advantage. Are you running a marshadow GX/focus sash night march or the old school one? Both are quite difficult to win nowadays. Zoroark can still OHKO marshadow with a cb with sudowoodo. I haven't played nm for a while now but my decklist is this:

 

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******
 
##Pokémon - 20
 
* 3 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 1 Diancie {*} FLI 74
* 3 Marshadow-GX BUS 156
* 4 Joltik PHF 26
* 1 Oricorio PR-SM SM19
* 4 Pumpkaboo PHF 44
* 4 Lampent PHF 42
 
##Trainer Cards - 36
 
* 3 Professor Juniper PLF 116
* 1 Computer Search BCR 137
* 4 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
* 2 Special Charge STS 105
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 161
* 1 Teammates PRC 160
* 4 VS Seeker ROS 110
* 1 Guzma BUS 143
* 3 Focus Sash FFI 91
* 1 Field Blower GRI 163
* 1 N NVI 101
* 1 Parallel City BKT 145
* 2 Red Card XY 124
* 1 Float Stone PLF 99
* 4 Trainers' Mail AOR 100
* 1 Switch SUM 160
* 1 Acerola BUS 142
* 1 Delinquent BKP 98
 
##Energy - 4
 
* 4 Double Colorless Energy GRI 166
 
Total Cards - 60
 
****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******
 
 
I think the time when nm reigned had long passed and now there are so many counters that could easily wreck it. 
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SuperStone

I think the time when nm reigned had long passed and now there are so many counters that could easily wreck it. 

Perhaps.  But people have been saying that since Primal Clash. :P

If I'm being honest, Karen was the final straw for Night March as a tier one deck, and it will probably never rise to the peak again. However, it's got itself a nice spot high enough on the mountain that it's still not anything to dismiss.  It's still doing the 'competitivity circle' where it will get attention, and everyone will tech against it, leaving it out in the cold until it loses some weight and can fit back through the crack it's slipped through before.

 

And in case the OP is still wondering- no, that data doesn't exist. *le shrug*

Edited by SuperStone

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Sakura150612

Perhaps.  But people have been saying that since Primal Clash. :P

If I'm being honest, Karen was the final straw for Night March as a tier one deck, and it will probably never rise to the peak again. However, it's got itself a nice spot high enough on the mountain that it's still not anything to dismiss.  It's still doing the 'competitivity circle' where it will get attention, and everyone will tech against it, leaving it out in the cold until it loses some weight and can fit back through the crack it's slipped through before.

 

And in case the OP is still wondering- no, that data doesn't exist. *le shrug*

I pretty much only play NM, and I completely agree xd After Karen, the addition of Oricorio made things pretty rough in certain matchups, and the Puzzle of Time ban was pretty bad, too (can't recycle compressors anymore to recover from Karen). And even after all of that, NM still feels good to play. It wins often enough for it to feel rewarding to use.

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Otakutron

IF we are talking about a 500+ player tournament where you play best of three, then I'd agree with you (at least for 95% of the meta)

.

 

That is actually what I thought we had shifted to discussing.  Which means I fell into the "Points out something someone else missed while missing something else." trap. XP

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