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Legacy Section losing it's comfort feeling


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23 December 2018 - 09:20 PM

#1

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

Hey, I'm not sure if I'm the only one going through this, but lately, everytime I play the Legacy section, sometimes it gives off a lamb being lead to a slaughter kind of feeling.  Where every time I push the play button, most of the time, I'm waiting at least a minute or two, sometimes more then five, and when I do I end up fighting a duelist who has made a deck that is designed for quick victories.

 

LIke I would either get a duelist who uses durant cards that has the attack to discard the top cards of my deck to my discard pile, or somebody who's deck focuses on poisoning one's active pokemon hard enough to take them out, both designed to use minimal effort to win without firing a shot.

 

Another is one that revolves Rayquaza EX, where it could descimate my pokemon, and can swap it out whenever somebody becomes capable of fighting back.

 

I have cards to counter some of these decks, but for some reason, they either seem to be one of the prize cards, or end up near the bottom of the deck, making it feel like being set up to take a fall, or if the game surrendered for me without giving me much of a chance to put up fight.

 

What makes this annoying is that 6 or 7 out of 10, feels like I keep getting rotated back to these same opponents over and over again, until I can duel an opponent that I can put up a decent fight with, or they surrender before the duel starts.  And to add insult to injury, most of the time, my duels seem to move sluggishly, like I'm not sure if I am having connection issues with my internet, or if there is some kind of outside interference that is causing these issues.

 

Anyway, while I'm not sure if I'm the only one who is going through this, or if others have gone through this, and decided to stop playing in the legacy section altogether.  Sure I can make more Legacy decks, but there is no guarantee they would give me better results, and right now, I'm wishing you guys kept the Unlimited section going, since right about now, I would like to do some mixing and matching of cards from different generations from IV to VII.


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23 December 2018 - 09:51 PM

#2

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I stopped playing Legacy after returning since Legacy tournaments were removed and the interest in this format has dropped a lot. However, I can say a couple of things about this that are simply the natural result of the format slowly losing players.

 

I don't know the actual numbers, but if Legacy only has a few people playing it at any given time (as opposed to the multitude of people that play the other 3 formats), it's pretty normal that you face the same people rather often. Matchmaking is still in full effect, but if there is a reduced player base from which the game can pick an opponent from, it's not surprising that you're playing against the same people all the time. 

 

The long waiting times are also related to the same issue. The game will attempt to find you a fair match (in terms of MMR difference), and in doing so it wastes time (because there are very few trainers in queue at any given time, which makes it hard for the game to find an ideal opponent within a reasonable amount of time). Eventually the game will prioritize matching you with anyone at all over finding a fair opponent, but it takes time (up to several minutes) for the game to switch priorities.

 

I don't know about being matched with donk and mill decks often. I'm not commenting on their frequency because I don't play Legacy and I have no idea if those are a thing there, and if they are, how often people play them. I will say, however (and this must be the billionth time this topic comes up), that there is no such thing as a "cheap", "no skill", what-have-you decks. All strategies are valid and period. It doesn't matter if they're annoying or if they displease some of the players. If we took such arguments as valid, people could take offense with literally every single deck in existence. Also, I don't know what your issue is with Ray/Eels (I'm assuming you mean that Rayquaza-EX), there's really nothing extraordinary about it. It's good, but it doesn't "decimate" other good Legacy decks; it's perfectly fair.

 

If you really hate mill and poison so much, then head to Standard where mill is pretty mediocre and LaserBank doesn't exist. Ray/Eels doesn't exist in Standard either (although you'll have to deal with Rayquaza-GX, which scales in a similar fashion but doesn't need to discard energies).

 

One thing about this:

I have cards to counter some of these decks, but for some reason, they either seem to be one of the prize cards, or end up near the bottom of the deck, making it feel like being set up to take a fall,

The game isn't out to get you. The RNG works as intended, and you just had bad luck. Just plain, old, bad luck. You are NOT being set up to take a fall.

 

And about this:

most of the time, my duels seem to move sluggishly, like I'm not sure if I am having connection issues with my internet, or if there is some kind of outside interference that is causing these issues.

This should go without saying, but connection issues are completely unrelated to the format you're playing in. If you're experiencing disconnections in Legacy, you will also experience them in the other formats.

 

Lastly, if they did create an "Unlimited" format, it would have to be a pseudo-Unlimited format instead where the cards currently banned in Expanded and Standard remained banned. It wouldn't be a "true" Unlimited, if you will. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the times where over half of your Unlimited opponents were NXD Shiftry w/ FotGP donk decks.


Edited by Sakura150612, 23 December 2018 - 09:54 PM.

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23 December 2018 - 11:02 PM

#3

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

 

I don't know about being matched with donk and mill decks often. I'm not commenting on their frequency because I don't play Legacy and I have no idea if those are a thing there, and if they are, how often people play them. I will say, however (and this must be the billionth time this topic comes up), that there is no such thing as a "cheap", "no skill", what-have-you decks. All strategies are valid and period. It doesn't matter if they're annoying or if they displease some of the players. If we took such arguments as valid, people could take offense with literally every single deck in existence. Also, I don't know what your issue is with Ray/Eels (I'm assuming you mean that Rayquaza-EX), there's really nothing extraordinary about it. It's good, but it doesn't "decimate" other good Legacy decks; it's perfectly fair.

 

 

 

This Rayquaza-EX card is the one where you discard energy cards after using an attack, and somebody found a way to bring out the most of it by using three to four eelektrik cards onto the bench as soon as possible to use their abilities to bring the electric energy card back from the discard pile and onto Rayquaza to be ready to dish out more damage.  Along with a few other things to ensure that no matter what, fighting back is a task in itself.

 

This, and the other decks I mentioned, are designed to where a person can be completely setup by their first or second turn, and take out their opponents while they are busy trying to get setup, guaranteeing to win the duel within a certain number of duels.

 

Yes annoying, and perfectly legal, yet if these are among the only few people playing the legacy section, then that in itself raises more questions then answers.


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24 December 2018 - 12:21 AM

#4

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612
Would you mind sharing your decklist, if Ray/Eels of all things is giving you problems, I have a strong feeling that the problem is on your end.
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24 December 2018 - 01:58 AM

#5

GrewupGeek

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  • GrewupGeek

Maybe, maybe not.  But then again, you might get a better grasp of it if you took a crack at the Legacy format yourself.  Because when it comes to the game, the only real control I have over the cards are deciding which ones I want to add to a deck, and during a duel, how I want to use the ones that come out of the deck.


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24 December 2018 - 04:45 AM

#6

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I could, but I just don't feel like waiting several minutes in queue. The fact that there are no Legacy tournaments is pretty depressing too. I might try making a quick Legacy deck, but if I have to make a major investment to make a deck then I'll pass. I'll see if I have most of the cards I need to build a decent Legacy deck.

 

Do keep in mind though that while I don't play Legacy right now, the Legacy rotation is still exactly the same as it used to be 2 years ago when I last played it, and back then I used to play it a LOT. I played 4 or so different decks and I'm familiar with a few more that I didn't play (I played Empoleon/Dusknoir, Ray/Eels, Weavile/Eggs and Garchomp. I'm also familiar with a few others like Donphan, Genesect-EX and Team Plasma decks). At the very least, I know what I'm talking about even if I haven't played Legacy in a while.

 

Once again though, I invite you to post your list. Ray/Eels is really nothing out of this world. If it's really destroying you turn 1 without exception, there just has to be something wrong on your end. This isn't meant to make fun of you or anything of the sort; it's for your own benefit to realize what you can improve to make your experience more enjoyable.

 

 

 

EDIT: Go read this:

forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/50549-the-legacy-weapon-%E2%80%93-decks-ideas-and-discussion-around-the-legacy-format/

 

The Legacy format hasn't changed since its introduction, so everything Felidae wrote here should still be valid.

 

 

 

EDIT 2: Challenge accepted. I ended up spending more packs than I wanted to, but I re-built my Empoleon/Dusknoir deck. Thankfully I already had 4 Junk Arms (because Felidae is amazing and gave me a playset when I came back in October xd), so that saved me a big part of the investment. For the time being I'm using Felidae's list without any modifications. I'll let you know how it goes.


Edited by Sakura150612, 24 December 2018 - 05:42 AM.

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24 December 2018 - 06:24 AM

#7

GrewupGeek

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  • GrewupGeek

Format might have stayed the same, but then again, there might still be some bugs that are still around for just as long.  And whether my deck is actually at fault or not, there is no actual way of proving it.  Until you have seen the Rayqueza EX deck in action yourself, right now, it's just speculation on your part.  Because the person that slapped this deck together, well you are better off seeing it for yourself, or if anybody else in this forum has brought it up.

 

As for me, well, I'm not going to post my card list.  I know it's far from perfect and it's going to have flaws, but I also know that it can help me out when I need it, when the, well since it's online, the algorithm of luck is on my side for a change.


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24 December 2018 - 06:47 AM

#8

Sakura150612

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  • Sakura150612

That's almost as good as admitting that your deck just isn't up to par with the rest of the Legacy decks. You shouldn't complain that decks like Ray/Eels guarantees a win against anything if you're the one that's taking a handicap on purpose by playing poorly constructed decks (you could prove me wrong if you posted your list though). No additional cards have been added to the format, Ray/Eels is still exactly the same from 2 years ago. The only thing that could have changed from back then is whether is still popular or not, but the deck in itself is the exact same. I've played with and against that deck enough times to say it's perfectly fair. It doesn't guarantee a win against anything; I never insta-lost to Ray/Eels (excluding ultra dead hands, which guarantee a loss using any deck against any other deck), and the only time I ever insta-won with it was when playing against terrible decks that had zero synergy between their cards.

 

I've yet to see any Ray/Eels so far, but I played against something similar (almost the same deck but with a bunch of Electric Pokemon instead of Rayquaza-EX). It may not have the same damage scaling as Rayquaza-EX, but keep in mind my deck takes double damage from it (Empoleon is weak to Electric). And you know what? Even being weak to it, it was a fair match. There's no "turn 1 guaranteed win" such as the one you describe. I'll keep playing Legacy until I have enough data, but I'm honestly convinced now that your deck just isn't any good, which makes it a given you see something as simple as Ray/Eels as a "guaranteed loss".


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24 December 2018 - 07:40 AM

#9

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I'll post the data of my Legacy games so far. This is just a summary of the queue times, the decks I'm facing and whether I won or not. I'll be updating this as I play more games.

 

 

 

Last Updated: 26/12/2018

 

General Comments:

  • No Ray/Eels so far, just 1 deck with Eels and some other Electric Pokemon.
  • Can say much of the Team Plasma matchup because it was the same opponent twice, and they afk'd in both games so I won by default.
  • Reshiplosion is not bad, but type advantage kind of auto-loses the game for them unless I draw dead.

 

 

Game 1:
-Queue Time: 1:30
-Oponent's Deck: Team Plasma
-Win
 
Game 2:
-Queue Time: instant
-Opponent's Deck: Mew Prime/Cradyly
-Comment: Lost pretty early, didn't get to see much of the deck. Probably used the Mew/Cradily combo to spam strong Stage 2 Pokemon.
-Defeat
 
Game 3:
-Queue Time: instant
-Opponent's Deck: Flygon (Sand Slammer)
-Comment: I was winning at first, but then my opponent turned it around. My opponent made good use of my inability to OHKO anything, survived using Max Potions and got KOs using Dusknoir.
-Defeat
 
Game 4:
-Queue Time: 1:00
-Opponent's Deck: Team Plasma
-Win
 
Game 5
-Queue Time: 2:05
-Opponent's Deck: Reshiplosion
-Win
 
Game 6:
-Queue Time: 5:50
-Opponent's Deck: Eels/Raikou/Mewtwo-EX/Zerkrom
-Win
 
Game 7:
-Queue Time: instant
-Opponent's Deck: Reshiplosion/HGSS Ninetales
-Win
 
Game 8:
-Queue Time: 2:30
-Opponent's Deck: Deck and Cover Accelgor
-Win
 
Game 9:
-Queue Time: 2:30
-Opponent's Deck: Darkrai-EX, LaseBank
-Defeat
 
Game 10:
-Queue Time: instant
-Opponent's Deck: Deck and Cover Accelgor
-Win
 
Game 11:
-Queue Time: 2:50
-Opponent's Deck: Sableye/ COL Weavile Stall Deck
-Win
 
Game 12:
-Queue Time: 1:25
-Opponent's Deck: Weavile/Eggs
-Win
 
Game 13:
-Queue Time: 3:40
-Opponent's Deck: Empoleon/Dusknoir
-Win
 
Game 14:
-Queue Time: 3:10
-Opponent's Deck: Random Fighting Type Pokemon (auto-conceded)
-Win
 
Game 15:
-Queue Time: instant
-Opponent's Deck: Latias-EX
-Defeat
 
Game 16:
-Queue Time: instant
-Opponent's Deck: Leafeon/Grass Deck
-Win
 
Game 17:
-Queue Time: 0:25
-Opponent's Deck: Genesect-EX
-Defeat
 
Game 18:
-Queue Time: 0:15
-Opponent's Deck: Genesect-EX
-Win
 
Game 19:
-Queue Time: 11:20
-Opponent's Deck: Random Water Deck
-Win
 
Game 20:
-Queue Time: 1:10
-Opponent's Deck: Durant Mill
-Win

Edited by Sakura150612, 27 December 2018 - 01:50 AM.

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24 December 2018 - 08:39 AM

#10

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

Well, then you seem to be having better luck finding your opponents then I am.  Right now, I have 5 legacy decks, and these are the ones I created during the first month that the Legacy option became operational.  One of them has a Team Plasma theme going, the rest are a nice blend of BW and HGSS cards.  No troubles back then, when I clicked play, most of the time, I got a duelist right away, and no big glitches.  No real problems, and kept the decks the same the whole time.  Even had plenty of opponents.

 

But now, for some reason, compared to Standard and Extended formats, seems like Legacy is starting to become the worse of the three.  When I click play, I end up waiting a few minutes before I come across an opponent who is somehow able to knock me out while I'm still trying to get ready.  Sometimes it would be the same opponent two to three times before I get somebody different, sometimes worse if there is a daily challenge involved.  So either my timing is off when it comes to playing the game, or there are fewer opponents playing Legacy nowadays.


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24 December 2018 - 08:48 AM

#11

GrewupGeek

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  • GrewupGeek

The Rayqueza EX I dueled was a dragon type promo, BW47, and this deck, well, you would have to duel it to see for yourself.


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24 December 2018 - 09:13 AM

#12

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

The Rayqueza EX I dueled was a dragon type promo, BW47, and this deck, well, you would have to duel it to see for yourself.

Yes, that's Ray/Eels. I know exactly what kind of deck it is. I've played with and against it multiple times in the past. There's absolutely nothing special about it. There's plenty of decks across all formats that set up in a single turn and get rolling from there. Energy acceleration from the discard pile is also nothing unique either. Malamar can do it, Bronzong can do it, Blaziken can do it, etc. And then there's decks that can accelerate from the hand but have easy ways of recovering energies from the discard pile such as Metagross-GX and Archie's Blastoise. There's nothing outstanding about this deck's damage output either, both within its own format and when compared to the decks in other formats. There's literally nothing about this deck that stands out, so what exactly do you find so special about it?

It's mostly a cheap deck too. Maybe you should consider building one and using Ray/Eels yourself. I can guarantee you that you won't find it to be nearly as OP as you think it is now. You would realize that it's just a good but average Legacy deck.
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24 December 2018 - 02:24 PM

#13

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

For the record: the term “duellist” in a Pokemon context feels so wrong xD. I now it's just point less semantics and its silly to be bothered by it, but got **** every time I read your initial post I got stuck on that phrase.

Anyway, moving on.

I stopped playing Legacy a while ago, simply because the meta grew extremely stale after a while. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as a stale meta is usually a good breeding ground for strong players to squeeze the last percentage points out of a deck, in order to stay ahead of the curve.
However, since even the strong decks are fairly cheap to build (including numerous budget versions of tier 1 decks), by this point I'd be surprised to see anyone not playing a top deck.

S Tier
Empoleon/Dusknoir/Flygon

A Tier
Weavile/Eggs
Sableye/Garbodor
Ray/Eels
Vir+Gen (I'm so surprised this name never got censored btw)
Lando/Mewtwo/Garb
Team Plasma

B Tier
Accelgor/Flygon/Dusknoir
Ninetales
Crustle lock down
Turbo Blastoise
Durant Mill

C-F Tier
Magmortar Mill
Aggron Mill

There are definitely a couple more decks in the B tier category that I missed, as well as countless c+ decks ( and you could argue that Accelgor deserves an A Tier listing), but honestly: Unless you are playing S or A tier in this format you'll have a bad time.


Edited by Felidae_, 24 December 2018 - 02:25 PM.

The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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