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Slight Problem with the Latest Ban List


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18 December 2018 - 04:50 PM

#21

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

If you manage to save a log with a card being used in a format it isn't valid in there should be no question about it. However, you absolutely must make sure that you ARE playing in said format. 

 

Ideally, include in your own deck (and use) cards that are exclusive to that format to show that you are in fact playing in the format you claim to be playing in. So, for example, go play Legacy and use HGSS exclusive cards like Junk Arms (or any HGSS card really). If we see on the very same log you using an HGSS card and your opponent using a GX card, then there's something wrong in fact.

 

Now, even if you do save a log, if it's impossible for anyone to reproduce the would-be bug, then it might be a bit hard to believe... So I'll say that if the offending card cannot be used by anyone else outside of their valid formats, I'm not too sure I'd believe you.


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18 December 2018 - 05:27 PM

#22

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

 

 

Now, even if you do save a log, if it's impossible for anyone to reproduce the would-be bug, then it might be a bit hard to believe... So I'll say that if the offending card cannot be used by anyone else outside of their valid formats, I'm not too sure I'd believe you.

 

My point exactly


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18 December 2018 - 07:12 PM

#23

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

My point exactly

I mean, how else could it be? If no one who attempts to recreate the would-be bug succeeds, then a number of other things could have happened instead.

 

I don't think this is unreasonable to ask either. As far back as I can remember, most (if not all) of the previous bug reports that have been legit have been reproducible. Even the strangest, even impossible looking bugs can be reproduced if the exact same conditions registered in the log are created again. If what's shown in your log cannot be reproduced, that can only mean that the mistake is on your end.

 

But lets leave theory-crafting aside for a little. How about you begin by actually posting a log? There's no point in continuing this discussion if you cannot do that much.


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18 December 2018 - 07:43 PM

#24

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

Well, I'll post it when it happens, but like you said, even if i did exactly as you told me, there is no guarantee you would believe it, even when it turns out to be real.


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18 December 2018 - 09:16 PM

#25

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

You have NOT seen Ghetsis played in the Expanded format, either in the VS Ladder or Events.

 

You have NOT seen GX cards played in the Legacy format.

 

You have NOT seen Black & White cards (Team Plasma) played in the Standard format.

 

Just STOP already.  This is getting ridiculous.

 

You seem like a very nice guy.  But this pattern of digging in deeper, rather than simply saying, "oops, my bad, sorry" is frustrating for you and us.


Edited by RobRatt, 18 December 2018 - 09:26 PM.

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18 December 2018 - 09:29 PM

#26

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

This really isn't anything unreasonable... the ultimate proof would be to reproduce the bug, and if that's not possible then that means that the bug doesn't exist in the first place. The log is just a mean to reach that end. At this point I'm mostly convinced that it's as Rob says and you just don't want to admit that you made a mistake.


Edited by Sakura150612, 18 December 2018 - 09:29 PM.

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18 December 2018 - 10:16 PM

#27

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

I already contacted support, so their opinions are the only ones that really matter.

 

 

You have NOT seen Ghetsis played in the Expanded format, either in the VS Ladder or Events.

 

You have NOT seen GX cards played in the Legacy format.

 

You have NOT seen Black & White cards (Team Plasma) played in the Standard format.

 

Just STOP already.  This is getting ridiculous.

 

You seem like a very nice guy.  But this pattern of digging in deeper, rather than simply saying, "oops, my bad, sorry" is frustrating for you and us.

 

And how do you know I have not seen all those things?  How do you know all those things didn't happen, hm?  You don't, and you are the one being ridiculous.  I'm not going to stop, period.  And chances are, even when I produce the proof, you well still deny it, so stop kidding yourselves.  It does happen, if you want to prove me wrong, go right head, because right now, I'm not stopping until it happens again.


  • -1

18 December 2018 - 10:23 PM

#28

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I already contacted support, so their opinions are the only ones that really matter.

That's cool, but the question is, did you send them anything that amounts to proof? There is literally nothing they can do other than give you a copy/pasted "we're sorry for your problem" unless you can help them pinpoint the issue. A game log would be the basics of the basics. Just claiming that the problem is there without any proof will in all likeliness yield you no results.


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18 December 2018 - 10:34 PM

#29

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

It's the same way with just about every bug, so what else is new?  And even if they have the proof, how much of a guarantee it gets fixed?  Besides, if I don't report bugs like these, then somebody else well.


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18 December 2018 - 10:50 PM

#30

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

It's the same way with just about every bug, so what else is new?  And even if they have the proof, how much of a guarantee it gets fixed?  Besides, if I don't report bugs like these, then somebody else well.

No, that's not true. Every other (legit) bug has happened under known, specific circumstances that have been registered in the game logs of the players experiencing them. The responses of the Support Team leave a lot to be desired sometimes, but even then, most bugs get identified and eventually solved.

 

Without any sort of indication, you're asking them to find an invisible needle hiding in a haystack. There are thousands of cards in existence, and without any pointers it would be a nightmare job to test each an every one in every format until they manage to catch one that can be played in formats it's not supposed to be playable in. All of this without even being certain that any of these cards are malfunctioning.

 

Without proof you can't do jack squat about this "bug". If you cannot reproduce the "bug", if you cannot save a game log of a "bugged" game, and if you can't even give the names of the specific cards that are supposedly bugged, then the issue doesn't exist in the first place. The mistake is on your end . If you were to provide any of this information instead of giving a vague "cards are being used in the wrong format" this discussion could go somewhere, but if you insist on this vague claim without providing any of the specifics then nothing can be done.

 

EDIT: Actually, lets begin by cards. I don't know why you avoided answering the previous time, but I'll ask again. Which SPECIFIC cards have you seen played and in which format. We need actual card names. Vague ideas is just grasping at straws and will not help anyone find the supposed bug. It might be presumptuous of me to speak on the Support Team's behalf, but I don't think they can "solve" your "issue" if they don't even know which cards they should be looking at. Just dropping this here because even if you don't care what our opinion is, the truth still remains that you can't solve bugs without knowing where the bug is located in the first place.


Edited by Sakura150612, 18 December 2018 - 10:57 PM.

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18 December 2018 - 11:13 PM

#31

Mod_Jynthu

    Moderator

  • Mod_Jynthu

Hello Trainers,

 

Thank you for all the helpful replies in attempting to explain what may have happened when GrewupGeek experienced the potential bug discussed here.

 

As GrewupGeek appears to have submitted a ticket to report this issue, our Support Team will be able to request any additional information necessary to investigate the issue.

 

If anyone can reproduce the issue here [Ghestsis (Black & White—Plasma Freeze, 101/116) being played in the incorrect formats or the usage of an incorrect deck in a Versus format], please submit a ticket with the game log by clicking the link in my signature, signing in, selecting the Pokémon TCG Online category and clicking "Contact Us".

 

Thanks!


Moderator Jynthu
Pokémon TCG Online Moderator
Need help from the support team? Visit the support portal and submit a ticket!


18 December 2018 - 11:23 PM

#32

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

Well, I couldn't really reproduce the issue with Ghetsis, but I encountered a GX Pokemon while playing Legacy today as well.... (I only copied part of the log to make it readable for everyone, but the issue should be fairly obvious).

 

Game Log Output Begins Here:
1. giamma_12 flipped 1 coin(s), resulting in 1 heads and 0 tails, for Beginning of Game.
2. It is now giamma_12's turn (Turn #1).
3. Felidae_ drew Pokémon Catcher.
4. giamma_12 drew a card.
5. Felidae_ drew Professor Juniper.
6. giamma_12 drew a card.
7. Felidae_ drew Darkness Energy.
8. giamma_12 drew a card.
9. Felidae_ drew Random Receiver.
10. giamma_12 drew a card.
11. Felidae_ drew Sableye.
12. giamma_12 drew a card.
13. Felidae_ drew Hypnotoxic Laser.
14. giamma_12 drew a card.
15. Felidae_ drew Garbodor.
16. giamma_12 drew a card.
17. Sableye became Felidae_'s new Active Pokémon.
18. giamma_12 drew a card.
19. giamma_12 played Professor Oak's New Theory.
20. giamma_12 drew a card.
21. giamma_12 drew a card.
22. giamma_12 drew a card.
23. giamma_12 drew a card.
24. giamma_12 drew a card.
25. giamma_12 drew a card.
26. giamma_12 put Shuckle-GX onto the Bench.
27. It is now Felidae_'s turn (Turn #2).
28. Felidae_ drew Junk Arm.
29. Felidae_ played Hypnotoxic Laser.
30. giamma_12's Shelmet is now Poisoned.
31. Felidae_ flipped 1 coin(s), resulting in 0 heads and 1 tails, for Hypnotoxic Laser.
32. Felidae_ attached a Darkness Energy to Sableye.
33. Felidae_ played Junk Arm.
34. giamma_12's Shelmet retreated.
35. Felidae_ played Pokémon Catcher.
36. Felidae_ flipped 1 coin(s), resulting in 1 heads and 0 tails, for Pokémon Catcher.
37. giamma_12's Shelmet is no longer Poisoned.
38. Shuckle-GX became giamma_12's new Active Pokémon.
39. Felidae_ played Hypnotoxic Laser.
40. giamma_12's Shuckle-GX is now Poisoned.
41. Felidae_ flipped 1 coin(s), resulting in 0 heads and 1 tails, for Hypnotoxic Laser.
42. Felidae_ played Professor Juniper.
43. Felidae_ drew Professor Juniper.
44. Felidae_ drew Hypnotoxic Laser.
45. Felidae_ drew Level Ball.
46. Felidae_ drew Float Stone.
47. Felidae_ drew Hypnotoxic Laser.
48. Felidae_ drew Level Ball.
49. Felidae_ drew Sableye.
50. Felidae_ played Level Ball.
51. Felidae_ drew Trubbish.
52. Felidae_ put Trubbish onto the Bench.
53. Felidae_ put Sableye onto the Bench.
54. Felidae_ played Level Ball.
55. Felidae_ drew Smeargle.
56. Felidae_'s Sableye used its Junk Hunt attack.
57. giamma_12's Shuckle-GX took 10 damage because it was Poisoned.
58. It is now giamma_12's turn (Turn #3).
59. giamma_12 drew a card.
60. giamma_12 put Accelgor onto the Bench.
61. giamma_12's Shelmet evolved into Accelgor.
62. giamma_12 attached a Double Colorless Energy to Accelgor.
63. giamma_12 attached a Float Stone to Shuckle-GX.
64. giamma_12's Shuckle-GX retreated.
65. giamma_12's Shuckle-GX is no longer Poisoned.
66. Accelgor became giamma_12's new Active Pokémon.
67. Felidae_'s Sableye is now Paralyzed.
68. Felidae_'s Sableye is now Poisoned.
69. giamma_12's used Deck and Cover and did 50 damage to Felidae_'s Sableye.
70. Shuckle-GX became giamma_12's new Active Pokémon.
71. Felidae_'s Sableye took 10 damage because it was Poisoned.
72. It is now Felidae_'s turn (Turn #4).
73. Felidae_ drew Mr. Mime.
74. Felidae_ played Hypnotoxic Laser.
75. giamma_12's Shuckle-GX is now Poisoned.
76. Felidae_ flipped 1 coin(s), resulting in 0 heads and 1 tails, for Hypnotoxic Laser.
77. Felidae_ put Smeargle onto the Bench.
78. Felidae_ attached a Float Stone to Smeargle.
79. Felidae_ played Junk Arm.
80. Felidae_ played Hypnotoxic Laser.

[…..]


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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19 December 2018 - 12:17 AM

#33

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

So Shuckle-GX is potentially a problem, that's a start. Thanks for providing a log Felidae, now we something to actually get started on xd

 

Although, it doesn't seem as simple as just including the Shuckle-GX. I tried making a Legacy valid deck (I just threw together a bunch of HGSS cards) with it and the game didn't allow me to use it in Legacy. I tried the exact same deck but only removed the Shuckle-GX, and now it recognized it as a Legacy valid deck.

 

Without a shred of doubt, I can say that this log is legit [EDIT 2: Nope, I got jebaited. This log is forged. Y u do dis to me man xd].

 

The question is though, how did this guy get away with it? At the very least, when I attempted to include a Shuckle-GX in a Legacy deck I became incapable of using it in Legacy.

 

EDIT: I've tested this with a few other Pokemon-GX and it isn't working. If nothing else, it's not as simple as just adding the Pokemon and going straight into Legacy matches. There could be some kind of workaround or loophole to make this work.


Edited by Sakura150612, 19 December 2018 - 09:33 PM.

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19 December 2018 - 02:07 AM

#34

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

Well, I couldn't really reproduce the issue with Ghetsis, but I encountered a GX Pokemon while playing Legacy today as well.... (I only copied part of the log to make it readable for everyone, but the issue should be fairly obvious).

I have no problem making mistakes, or admitting it when it happens.  I've probably made at least 4 or 5 today alone, in thought or deed.  Before we go further, let me ask the obvious though.

 

You wouldn't tease your pals, would you?

 

Was this Game Log played in a VS Ladder match?  ...Legacy only?

 

Or from a Personal Challenge? ...your Legacy vs. their Unlimited?

 

If it was the VS Ladder, did you submit this log to Support? ...or get an answer?

 

The question is though, how did this guy get away with it? At the very least, when I attempted to include a Shuckle-GX in a Legacy deck I became incapable of using it in Legacy.

 

EDIT: I've tested this with a few other Pokemon-GX and it isn't working. If nothing else, it's not as simple as just adding the Pokemon and going straight into Legacy matches. There could be some kind of workaround or loophole to make this work.

Like @Sakura, I'm not able to replicate this.  I took one of my existing Legacy decks, and couldn't play it on the Ladder with any type of GX in it.

 

1.  Verified that my deck worked in the Legacy format.  It showed in VS, and was playable.

 

2.  I modified it, adding a Shuckle-GX.  It was no longer viewable, or an option when playing on the VS Ladder (in the Legacy format).

 

3.  Put it back to normal (HGSS-BW), and it was fine again.

 

4.  Added an Articuno-GX, just to see.  It was no longer an option in Legacy.

 

5.  Put it back to normal (HGSS-BW), and it was fine again.

 

@Sakura's question seems valid, "How did this guy get away with it?"  Does anyone have any ideas that could explain how this could happen?  If this is possible, the entire game is broken.  If some players can inject cards from other formats, where does their ability stop?


Edited by RobRatt, 19 December 2018 - 02:20 AM.

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19 December 2018 - 08:28 PM

#35

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_
You wouldn't tease your pals, would you?

 

Would I really take the time to:

  • start the game

  • select an old Legacy deck

  • wait approximately 1 hour to find a match

  • play the match

  • save the log

  • painstakingly alter the log / replace all instances of one Pokemon with another

 

Just to get a rather vague and dubious point across ?

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

Of course I would (sorry Sakura)

 


 

Without a shred of doubt, I can say that this log is legit.

;)

 

So, what's the point ?

 

One the one hand I wanted to showcase how easily one can forge a log, or at least parts of it. Trying this over the course of an entire game would probably be a bit trickier, as you had to keep damage consistent and include attacks and everything, but it's manageable never the less.

 

Before the log both of you argued that the OP simply made an error. How could anyone get away with playing a GX Pokemon in Legacy, or with Ghetsis in Expanded?

Naturally that was also my obvious conclusion. Especially given that a lot of players probably own decks that can be run in Legacy and in Expanded it easy to see how someone could make a simple error and not realize that he's currently playing the wrong format.

Additionally, unique bugs in this game are pretty much non-existent and in small cases where individual solutions apply, it usually a hardware, rather than a software problem.

If you can't replicate the bug under the same circumstances, chances are that either a critical info is missing, or that someone made an error.

 

That being said, just because you can't replicate a bug on the first try doesn't necessarily mean that the OP is lying. Heck, if I stuck to my story I'm sure that I could convince both of you that I encountered a legit bug, despite your inability to reproduce it.

Rather than argue about the credibility of the OP (which honestly won't go anywhere), we should either look out for a different solution (I think we can all agree that you are unable to enter a mode with a deck that isn't legal in the format).

 

One thought that came to my mind yesterday when I was waiting for a match (it probably took a couple of minutes and I was playing at a reasonable time for both Europe and the US).

Imagine you have a deck that is legal in Expanded and in Legacy and I have a deck that is legal in both formats, except I run 1 copy of Ghetsis. You queue for Expanded and I queue for Legacy.

The developers already confirmed that the algorithm will eventually increase the range of potential opponents if it takes too long to find a match (I know you don't believe in the ELO, Rob, but we can both agree that there is a match making happening in the background).

Now, what if that algorithm identifies both of our decks as being legal to be paired against (if it wouldn't be for Ghetsis we'd probably both think we just had a match in our respective formats)?

 

While the chance of that happening is extremely low, with all the weird bugs that PTCGO has produced over the years it certainly wouldn't be the strangest and yet something that is almost impossible to re-create.

It's a long shot and the obvious answer is probably the right one (in fact I'm 99,9% on your side),

but to reach that conclusion we probably didn't need 30 posts :S.

 

Happy holidays guys <3

 

Cheers,

 

Sebastian


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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19 December 2018 - 09:32 PM

#36

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

Man, the reason why I said it was legit was because you were the one posting it xd It's true that you have more credibility than the OP though, you can't really blame me for trusting you on this one. Geezus, I got jebaited big time xdddd

 

That said, you did make a pretty strong point with this one. I'll be more careful in the future in how I go around these type of issues.

 

Although, this does seem to be the final nail in the coffin for this issue though. If after this long, literally the only "proof" of this claim is a forged log, then there's just no way it's true after all.

 

/thread

 

EDIT: A bit early still, but happy holidays guys :D


Edited by Sakura150612, 19 December 2018 - 09:34 PM.

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19 December 2018 - 09:41 PM

#37

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

but to reach that conclusion we probably didn't need 30 posts :S.

That much is certain.  :blink: 
 

Happy holidays guys <3

Cheers,

Sebastian

Many years ago, even though I shun most fads, I decided to let my son "do Pokémon."  I'm so glad we did it together.  He taught himself to read, before entering school, just to play.  But one of the main benefits is learning so many things about life, competition, other people, and ourselves.  When you realize the extra benefits, the friendships, and life lessons that come from this silly game, it makes it all worthwhile.

Thank you for challenging our thoughts.  It was a gift, even if you didn't intend it.

P.S.  Merry Christmas.  Don't leave your eggnog unattended. :cool:


Edited by RobRatt, 19 December 2018 - 10:16 PM.

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20 December 2018 - 04:39 AM

#38

GrewupGeek

    Veteran Trainer

  • GrewupGeek

 

 

While the chance of that happening is extremely low, with all the weird bugs that PTCGO has produced over the years it certainly wouldn't be the strangest and yet something that is almost impossible to re-create.

It's a long shot and the obvious answer is probably the right one (in fact I'm 99,9% on your side),

but to reach that conclusion we probably didn't need 30 posts :S.

 

Happy holidays guys <3

 

Cheers,

 

Sebastian

 

Well, thanks man for helping me with my point, while I can't prove what I went through actually happened, and even if it did, and I produced the actual game log, it still wouldn't help matters much because who would believe it's real?

 

Besides, while there is no actual way of proving it actually happened, or wither waiting for an opponent in the Vs. section for about at least 3-5 minutes might actually cause  two formats to collide, at the same time, there is no real way to disprove it either.

 

While I'm not going to pursue the issue, I'm not going to drop it either, because with all of the bugs this game has, the one I described could just be a needle in the haystack for all I know.

 

Besides, Christmas is near and need to put all pride aside, mine included, to focus on peace and goodwill.  Whether what I said was fact or fiction, we will never know.


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20 December 2018 - 05:29 AM

#39

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

Would I really take the time to:

  • start the game

  • select an old Legacy deck

  • wait approximately 1 hour to find a match

  • play the match

  • save the log

  • painstakingly alter the log / replace all instances of one Pokemon with another

Just to get a rather vague and dubious point across ?

To share this particular defense, and create an alternate game log, @Felidae_ had to wait an hour to find a match in Legacy!?

 

This effort alone shows that they don't "increase the range of potential opponents if it takes too long to find a match" or that waiting could possibly "cause two formats to collide."

 

Did this fuzzy logic escape everyone else?  Rest assured, if you're waiting in the Legacy format queue, you're not going to be facing the new Jumpluff, Zoroark-GX, or a Theme Deck for the sake of expediency.  It doesn't do any of us a favor by suggesting otherwise.


Edited by RobRatt, 20 December 2018 - 05:34 AM.

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