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This is very nasty!


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30 November 2018 - 03:47 PM

#1

Pokegen85

    Senior Trainer

  • Pokegen85
I’ve seen a vile strategy this morning in expanded format. The person who uses this strategy, if they go first, have the opportunity to lock their opponent out of the game by reducing their opening hand to one card. I’m not sure why this is even legal considering the first turn implications, but here’s the breakdown if you’re so inclined:

Player one opens by putting a stadium card down. Next, they bench a Pokémon that shall not be named whose ability has both players shuffle their hands into their decks and draw four cards. The next step involves playing Delinquent or using Wonder Tag to pull Delinquent and then playing it, discarding the stadium and forcing your opponent to discard three of their four remaining cards.

Even if one builds their decks correctly by including at least eight draw supporters and a few Pokémon that have abilities or attacks that draw cards, the chances of coming back after being hit with this first turn whammy are so low that the other player is all but forced to concede.

Should this even be allowed in the game? What are your thoughts?
  • -2

30 November 2018 - 05:16 PM

#2

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

*sigh*

 

Why do you do this man? You seemed like a reasonable person. You should know that these qq threads don't get anywhere. Like it or not, you have to accept that ALL strategies are valid strategies no matter how annoying they are.

 

Admittedly there have been a few cards that have been banned and rightfully so, but that doesn't mean that every deck based on control is broken and needs to be banned. The exact same complaint has been said about just about everything ranging from Trevenant, to Wailord, to Glaceon-GX, to Garbodor, etc.

 

With this specific deck, yes it's very annoying and has a chance of auto-winning if the conditions are right, but your opponent MUST win the coin flip. If they've dedicated enough resources to consistently pull the turn 1 Marshadow into Delinquent, that means they don't have as many tools to deal with you if you escape the turn 1 lock. This usually means that if they lost the coin flip it's over, you have plenty of time to set up your own board. After that point their lock strategy isn't nearly as effective.

 

As you can imagine, starting off with around a 50% winrate isn't exactly good when you consider that there are plenty of decks that win way more than that. Now consider that the turn 1 Marshadow into Delinquent isn't a guaranteed win either. Pokemon like Shaymin-EX, Tapu Lele-GX and Oranguru can get you out of a 2 card hand [the one you're left with plus your next draw] (this assumes you're not ability locked as well, but thankfully they can't leave a Silent Lab in play due to having used Delinquent, which reduces their ability lock options). Drawing into these will do, but if you draw something that searches them (like nest ball for Oranguru) it also works. Other trainers that help you draw deeper into your deck help (thinking of Trainers' Mail and Acro Bike mainly, but I'm certain that there are others). You don't need a million draw Supporters either. And I think (and forgive me if I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but this simply must be said) your reluctance to use VS Seekers really shows here, since it's one of the most key cards for escaping the dreaded 2 card hand. When you're forced to discard, discarding 1 draw supporter instantly converts all 4 of your VS Seekers into "draw supporters". Having 4 extra cards in your deck that can get you out of the turn 1 is massive. Even if you don't draw straight into a VS Seeker, if you also have 3-4 Trainers' Mail you have a good chance of finding either the Seeker or one of the draw supporters that are still in your deck.

 

Of course, you will still insta-lose some games against that deck, but isn't the same thing true for any deck if you get unlucky enough? Because that's what it comes down to; getting unlucky on both losing the coin flip and not drawing absolutely anything useful despite having several consistency cards. This really isn't any different than losing to a random deck because you just didn't draw what you needed. 

 

I hope this whole thing doesn't come off as condescending. I really don't mean to. I just think, after reading several of your posts, that you still have a lot to learn about the game. When you do, you'll see that you won't find yourself being frustrated to the point of suggesting a possible ban nearly as often.


Edited by Sakura150612, 30 November 2018 - 05:31 PM.

  • 0

30 November 2018 - 06:25 PM

#3

XK920XK

    Veteran Trainer

  • XK920XK

As saukura stated, these qq threads are basically pointless here.

 

The game mechanic of getting someone down to 4 cards and using a delinquent has been around for a long time.  Before marshadow was around, players used red card and then delinquent. Even though its annoying its not exactly a game breaker and hasnt had much success overall.

 

The online gameplay is suppose to mimic irl as much as possible, the devs and mods here dont control what cards are banned from play (outside of technical online issues). Pokemon card laboratory decides the game mechanics and bans and erratas. They get the feedbacks from judges and players and decide if a certain game mechanic is broken and make a ruling and this is one that they havnt considered broken.


  • 1

30 November 2018 - 06:25 PM

#4

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

My thoughts in chronological order:

 

  1. You are a scrub.

  2. Everyone know which deck you are talking about. Stop acting like you discovered a super secret tech that you aren't allowed to share with the rest of the world

  3. Having played a single game against the combo is an awful lot of data to warrant a ban (although technically this means that your opponents get the combo 100% of the time, which seems quite op).

  4. Providing zero input yourself on a question / discussion, other than stating the obvious, is a bad way to start any thread

  5. Any thread that asked for a card ban should better have an extremely strong argument backing it up, otherwise you just look like a salty fool that can't deal with a lose


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • 0

30 November 2018 - 07:17 PM

#5

Pokegen85

    Senior Trainer

  • Pokegen85

 

My thoughts in chronological order:

 

  1. You are a scrub.

  2. Everyone know which deck you are talking about. Stop acting like you discovered a super secret tech that you aren't allowed to share with the rest of the world

  3. Having played a single game against the combo is an awful lot of data to warrant a ban (although technically this means that your opponents get the combo 100% of the time, which seems quite op).

  4. Providing zero input yourself on a question / discussion, other than stating the obvious, is a bad way to start any thread

  5. Any thread that asked for a card ban should better have an extremely strong argument backing it up, otherwise you just look like a salty fool that can't deal with a lose

 

I haven't lost to this though. I saw this strategy in an online video and figured that it warranted discussion. Hex Maniac and Forest of Giant Plants got banned for first turn implications... why can't Delinquent be banned as well for this very reason? I don't like any strategy that prevents players from having at least one turn to set the board. Perhaps I'm being too chivalrous with my play style... but I like to have interesting matches, not one off donks where wins are decided well before the match even begins in earnest.


  • 0

30 November 2018 - 08:28 PM

#6

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I haven't lost to this though. I saw this strategy in an online video and figured that it warranted discussion. Hex Maniac and Forest of Giant Plants got banned for first turn implications... why can't Delinquent be banned as well for this very reason? I don't like any strategy that prevents players from having at least one turn to set the board. Perhaps I'm being too chivalrous with my play style... but I like to have interesting matches, not one off donks where wins are decided well before the match even begins in earnest.

But that's the thing you need to understand though. "I don't like this strategy" isn't, hasn't ever been, and will never be a valid reason to ban anything. The cards that have received the banhammer have had very strong reasons behind them. You can recover from a turn 1 Marshadow --> Delinquent combo. You won't ALWAYS be able to, but that doesn't separate this deck from any other deck. You can always survive donk decks by either going 1st, or starting with at least 2 Pokemon. They're honestly pretty bad decks unless you just want quick wins regardless of how many losses you get in the middle.

 

Shiftry with FotGP donk was different, because it could donk not just 1, but multiple pokemon in 1 turn. I don't know about the Hex Maniac ban. Being ability locked is tough but there are still other cards that can do the same thing. I'm guessing Silent Lab just isn't on the same level since it can be removed in a plethora of ways and it only affects basic pokemon. While I do think that Garbodor with Klefki is completely evil (it's basically Hex Maniac), it can also be removed with Field Blower, and it requires an evolved Pokemon so it's not the same thing either.

 

I honestly would not put "honor" before reason when deckbuilding. There is no chivalry in avoiding certain decks and cards just because you think they're unfair. That's sort of like if you opened up a chess game by moving forward only the King because "a King must lead its troops", got checkmated immediately, and then complained that your opponent was a coward for hiding the King behind the pawns. I know that this analogy is a very far stretch compared to Pokemon Cards, but you get what I mean right? There's no point in defining your own rules of "chivalry" when playing a game. If a strategy exists, and the creators themselves don't deem it ban-worthy, then it's valid and you have absolutely no reason for not using it. If you don't like the strategy yourself that's fine, but you can't (and won't) force anyone to not play said strategy (a.k.a. getting TPCi to ban a certain card) just because you don't like it.

 

You just have to accept reality my man :/ This is just how the cookie crumbles.


Edited by Sakura150612, 30 November 2018 - 09:48 PM.

  • 0

30 November 2018 - 09:20 PM

#7

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_



I don't know about the Hex Maniac ban.


I wanted to answer you in great detail here, but I wasn't in the mood to write. So instead, I decided to give these voice tech word thing a try. Needless to say, the result is... hilarious.

Probs if you can understand anything. I'll type it out tomorrow so you can enjoy an actual explanation, but for the time being this is the best I got :D.





Ok supreme remember time when it's maniac was playing format I give you a brief rundown for why I think remote working with PC ISO in just giving educated guess but honestly thing must have my back to hurt I think that I've got a pretty good at You by The Cars. So first things first when you consider being a card we have to consider and future implications the expanded form might as of right now that's one problem we have no occasion were obviously maybe the future we can see two PCI dropping out the black and white sets however until that point for my job you just keep adding surds another move anything and even if you consider saving me first back and whitesides up to plasma and given the first plus vs. You have oh my god words that still means that cats like plenty of giants of giant plants pixmania remain in the form it's forever like literally forever so the problem with photo of giant forest of giant plants simple that every future bass evolution beautiful sun and moon from the next few years so many booster whatsoever would have never been turned down or been ***** ***** ***** she behind on because quite frankly with a contact us a giant plans in the expected format you can never print aggressive illusion that's above average because photo job plans trans anything it is above average into really really good hence it's easier to simply better cat or to not start the creativity because it's the wheel it's quite difficult to design cards for two different the balanced air intake and see you there usually tailored expertec but even to the balance of two different formats spend one for my grass is freaking appear dead so it's important that creativity like no other chords in recent years because before spending it was spent pretty much no consistent they could run any type of ability place Pokémon they are really essential to work as 2 trilogy of a deck sure you cook broccoli who could run your shaman and 7 seconds even run stuff like Bronson etc but if you want those cards your point could just steamroll you with x Mania expedia can't guess what ************* mentioned though loved I'm so you pretty much got 8 x. So fabulous we go for puzzle maniac any of those that say you can run everything so it's roughly between 5 to 276 per game so obviously in 5 to 7 take me. Example x maniac just means that in the future every interesting cards with an ability. Becomes worse than average sized because it's medical 6 exists and it ended so cute because if you want to sell cards and you need to make an appealing and second of all if you want to keep the format in 0 metre strategies right and need to cycle of new texting ideas and deafening them in the first place is really good idea so that's creativity artefact second opinion for 7.0 zarate x was insane that wasn't even at the at the height of Corbett with pretty much was one of the most is another text in recent years nothing comes even close to have feeding and sensory class in expanded and you could argue yeah you got yourself something like a password for weakness but when is Zurich has ability to take freaking anything you can take him you can take them to clean out the energy you can have a nice day resources the **** was insane and this deck information with hex maniac what's episode so where the best place to deal with Zurich especially if LOL X Men attacker was obviously you should have no problem now is that affects maniac so pretty much becomes worthless actually you can just go with you to get you off executives from discard pile some to draw cards play some of you then x maniac play someone to a bench a text for 200 something in a match report it can't play any abilities as next term since woodard civil is activated again with executives Couture discount can be used to a batch of Cards *** maniac obviously let you get the bag into a ant and guess what saga continues continues that was current weather and now on to the point so I was seriously going too much detail why is also good and bad of Person of time the band of a maniac in the new Harbour tco promotes joe Hart undetected the **** is still pretty good my friend just just say sale at biopsy now you play those subjects variance with my cargo where you can you search through pretty much get a free menu and whatever she's called every turn into Spanish city of cards of one of Cards everyone who and I can help you to enable use my lesson at 6 to 8 unto the third and final point expended we spoken of creativity and respoking of the dominance of 0jx never felt PT and and even i'm confused myself I think this is that went for the hat is it mean if something not fun and know what you're thinking but just because it cuts not found that shouldn't be any reason to tube and the card right well there to cancel that middle of the document first honestly it's not fun to play against it that's not really interesting I mean this is a competitive game I don't care one bit component has fun do you know game I play this game to win simple as that the problem that he peace and countless reflects Maniac and essentially with expanded format it's boring and not fun to watch and that is a problem because if Pokémon as a game wants to succeed and if it wants to stay competitive and a head or not with your head but on par with magic YuGiOh Hearthstone and I just know grand artefact whatever big tournaments and stream soccer tournaments at each reason why people training and if one of your to complete the format is simply so boring to watch because it will start as creativity and it forces you to Eva play the cricket best deck in the format or I think that's healthy is an accountant or sample pick that can maybe sometimes get to bed but that's about it that's a tough choice that's a really tough choice and I think the problem really was that at least my games that I watched and for 2 months resort that I saw my. on chicken salt I like watching me high level standard because it was a format that I wasn't that keen or I could be here probably alex an expanded over Dover so that's really cool and quickly must see a different decor the additions to a deck in every tournament you can see some little text you and there it was with the fan and watching spended boy that's it was boring as f*** so I hope you enjoy this will talk I know that you won't understand anything because speech notes and Lee doesn't work that great maybe with Pokémon names and general may because I'm trying to fast maybe because my a German accent isn't working I don't know I will probably let us down but when you get the hang of it I don't know you shall see Angela best felidae


Edited by Felidae_, 30 November 2018 - 09:20 PM.

The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • 2

30 November 2018 - 09:45 PM

#8

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I wanted to answer you in great detail here, but I wasn't in the mood to write. So instead, I decided to give these voice tech word thing a try. Needless to say, the result is... hilarious.

Probs if you can understand anything. I'll type it out tomorrow so you can enjoy an actual explanation, but for the time being this is the best I got :D.

Ok supreme remember time when it's maniac was playing format I give you a brief rundown for why I think remote working with PC ISO in just giving educated guess but honestly thing must have my back to hurt I think that I've got a pretty good at You by The Cars. So first things first when you consider being a card we have to consider and future implications the expanded form might as of right now that's one problem we have no occasion were obviously maybe the future we can see two PCI dropping out the black and white sets however until that point for my job you just keep adding surds another move anything and even if you consider saving me first back and whitesides up to plasma and given the first plus vs. You have oh my god words that still means that cats like plenty of giants of giant plants pixmania remain in the form it's forever like literally forever so the problem with photo of giant forest of giant plants simple that every future bass evolution beautiful sun and moon from the next few years so many booster whatsoever would have never been turned down or been ***** ***** ***** she behind on because quite frankly with a contact us a giant plans in the expected format you can never print aggressive illusion that's above average because photo job plans trans anything it is above average into really really good hence it's easier to simply better cat or to not start the creativity because it's the wheel it's quite difficult to design cards for two different the balanced air intake and see you there usually tailored expertec but even to the balance of two different formats spend one for my grass is freaking appear dead so it's important that creativity like no other chords in recent years because before spending it was spent pretty much no consistent they could run any type of ability place Pokémon they are really essential to work as 2 trilogy of a deck sure you cook broccoli who could run your shaman and 7 seconds even run stuff like Bronson etc but if you want those cards your point could just steamroll you with x Mania expedia can't guess what ************* mentioned though loved I'm so you pretty much got 8 x. So fabulous we go for puzzle maniac any of those that say you can run everything so it's roughly between 5 to 276 per game so obviously in 5 to 7 take me. Example x maniac just means that in the future every interesting cards with an ability. Becomes worse than average sized because it's medical 6 exists and it ended so cute because if you want to sell cards and you need to make an appealing and second of all if you want to keep the format in 0 metre strategies right and need to cycle of new texting ideas and deafening them in the first place is really good idea so that's creativity artefact second opinion for 7.0 zarate x was insane that wasn't even at the at the height of Corbett with pretty much was one of the most is another text in recent years nothing comes even close to have feeding and sensory class in expanded and you could argue yeah you got yourself something like a password for weakness but when is Zurich has ability to take freaking anything you can take him you can take them to clean out the energy you can have a nice day resources the **** was insane and this deck information with hex maniac what's episode so where the best place to deal with Zurich especially if LOL X Men attacker was obviously you should have no problem now is that affects maniac so pretty much becomes worthless actually you can just go with you to get you off executives from discard pile some to draw cards play some of you then x maniac play someone to a bench a text for 200 something in a match report it can't play any abilities as next term since woodard civil is activated again with executives Couture discount can be used to a batch of Cards *** maniac obviously let you get the bag into a ant and guess what saga continues continues that was current weather and now on to the point so I was seriously going too much detail why is also good and bad of Person of time the band of a maniac in the new Harbour tco promotes joe Hart undetected the **** is still pretty good my friend just just say sale at biopsy now you play those subjects variance with my cargo where you can you search through pretty much get a free menu and whatever she's called every turn into Spanish city of cards of one of Cards everyone who and I can help you to enable use my lesson at 6 to 8 unto the third and final point expended we spoken of creativity and respoking of the dominance of 0jx never felt PT and and even i'm confused myself I think this is that went for the hat is it mean if something not fun and know what you're thinking but just because it cuts not found that shouldn't be any reason to tube and the card right well there to cancel that middle of the document first honestly it's not fun to play against it that's not really interesting I mean this is a competitive game I don't care one bit component has fun do you know game I play this game to win simple as that the problem that he peace and countless reflects Maniac and essentially with expanded format it's boring and not fun to watch and that is a problem because if Pokémon as a game wants to succeed and if it wants to stay competitive and a head or not with your head but on par with magic YuGiOh Hearthstone and I just know grand artefact whatever big tournaments and stream soccer tournaments at each reason why people training and if one of your to complete the format is simply so boring to watch because it will start as creativity and it forces you to Eva play the cricket best deck in the format or I think that's healthy is an accountant or sample pick that can maybe sometimes get to bed but that's about it that's a tough choice that's a really tough choice and I think the problem really was that at least my games that I watched and for 2 months resort that I saw my. on chicken salt I like watching me high level standard because it was a format that I wasn't that keen or I could be here probably alex an expanded over Dover so that's really cool and quickly must see a different decor the additions to a deck in every tournament you can see some little text you and there it was with the fan and watching spended boy that's it was boring as f*** so I hope you enjoy this will talk I know that you won't understand anything because speech notes and Lee doesn't work that great maybe with Pokémon names and general may because I'm trying to fast maybe because my a German accent isn't working I don't know I will probably let us down but when you get the hang of it I don't know you shall see Angela best felidae

Woah. That's pretty amazing, I didn't know you were fluent in Xensor Style Stream of Consciousness xdddd I'd say it's so good, you even put the creator to shame xd

 

From what (I think) I understood, what you're saying is that Hex Maniac is simply bad business to have around. Because it effectively makes any and all abilities useless, even if it's just for a turn (being re-applicable every turn at the cost of your Supporter use), it means that any new interesting Pokemon with abilities will not be all that interesting after all because they get shut down by Hex Maniac anyways. I'm not sure how big the Expanded format is internationally, but I'm guessing that if a lot of people play it, there wouldn't be much interest in new sets since people will be reluctant to move to new cards and combos if they know they have to deal with Hex Maniac, which is un-removable (except maybe for Pokemon Ranger).

 

In that sense, it differs from other annoying strategies in that it shuts down a wide variety of other strategies, while stuff like donks and control decks can be played around in most cases. This would justify the ban, since it could be bad for TPCi if interest in new sets diminished due to this card.

 

 

 

Uh, I'm not sure if I got any of that right, but I'm curious to hear the full explanation xd


  • 0

30 November 2018 - 10:14 PM

#9

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

I think I found the secret to his success.

 

A detailed answer follows tomorrow, is short:

 

  1. The card stifles any creativity of future sets, the same way FogP out a shackle on any future grass evolution.

  2. Zoroark GX was way o dominant in the format and one of the reasons was Hex Maniac (they actually banned two of the most important cards for Zoroark and additionally also printed Faba in the new set. The fact that Zoroark is still viable is quite impressive.

  3. Expanded became quite boring to watch which isn't good if you want to compete with the likes of Magic and Hearthstone.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • 1

30 November 2018 - 10:21 PM

#10

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

 

I think I found the secret to his success.

 

A detailed answer follows tomorrow, is short:

 

  1. The card stifles any creativity of future sets, the same way FogP out a shackle on any future grass evolution.

  2. Zoroark GX was way o dominant in the format and one of the reasons was Hex Maniac (they actually banned two of the most important cards for Zoroark and additionally also printed Faba in the new set. The fact that Zoroark is still viable is quite impressive.

  3. Expanded became quite boring to watch which isn't good if you want to compete with the likes of Magic and Hearthstone.

 

I see. So it looks like I got that partially right at least. Looking forward for the detailed answer. Since I've been disconnected from the PTCG for a while I have a hard time explaining the new card bans when asked (since before I left only LTC and Shiftry were banned), so I'm very interested in this.


  • 0

01 December 2018 - 12:02 AM

#11

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

Alright, here we go

 

Creative ideas and OP cards

 

The problem that the Expanded format is facing for quite some time now, is the lack of any rotation. Sure, eventually the early BW sets will rotate out of the format and in a couple of years we'll probably look at a XY onwards format, but that would mean that cards from the later XY expansions (such as Hex Maniac and FogP) will stay in the format until the end of times.

 

The problem with a card like FogP is the difficulty in trying to balance two vastly different formats. With FogP in Expanded you'd force the designers to tune down any strong grass type evolution, in order to avoid a scenario where said card can be used to break the Expanded format. Likewise, this is also difficult for other card types, because if you can't print a strong grass type evolution line you'll automatically strengthen Pokemon with a weakness to Grass (as those decks would become inherently weaker than the rest of the field).

It's important to keep in mind that we are talking of high level competitive here, where anything but the best will be discarded.

 

Hex Manaic has a similar issue. With the card lurking around in the Expanded format you quite frankly stifle any creative attempts to integrate new Pokemon with unique abilities into the format. Imagine a deck like Rotom in a world where Hex Manaic is viable. Yeah, fun times.

 

Cawblade 2.0

 

Lets take a moment to talk about Zoroark GX. You'll probably remember a deck called Caw Blade (at least that's what I remember it as). The name was stolen from an older MtG deck that dominated the Standard format and likewise this deck went nuts in the Pokemon Standard format. Consisting of Yveltal EX, Zoroark (acting as a non EX attacker, Keldeo substitution and occasionally Zoroark Break / Nasty Plot Zoroark for a surprise OHKO) and Gallade (Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick).

The deck became immensely popular, spawning several versions (sometimes dropping Gallade for Garbodor) and pretty much dominating the format.

 

Well, as soon as Zoroark GX was printed the card continued the success story.

The biggest asset of the deck was the draw engine, that allowed you to run disruptive supporter cards and still be able to get anything you need from your deck. There was also quite the broken synergy between an opposing Sudowoodo and Eggs. You pretty much run 3-4 Eggs in most versions, because they could be used to power up your Sky field bench quickly. You'd get them into your hand, play Hex (thus disabling the Sudowoodo), then drop your Eggs and OHKO the oposing Pokemon. On your turn Sudowoodo would become active and you could simply discard your eggs and start all over.

In the mirror this became quite ridiculous, because once you were in the Hex lock you couldn't use your own Zoroark, and don't get your Eggs back. However, playing your own Hex would disable your own Sudowoodo, with in turn would result in your opponents Eggs staying on the field, increasing the opposing Zoroark GX's damage. On the one hand that created some pretty interesting game states, on the other hand it was freaking ridiculous.

 

The biggest problem with a midrange deck like Zoroark was the fact that it was so oppressive. With the ability to easily tech in cards like Mew EX or Garbodor to deal with fighting types, easy access to Enhanced Hammer and the above mentioned combo of insane draw engine and disruptive supporters, the deck could answer anything that was thrown against it.

With the ban of Puzzle of Time (another huge asset in the archetype), Hex Maniac and the printing of Faba in the latest set Zoroark has become just a good deck (currently often run in conjunction with Magcargo, to enable a multitude of tech cards), but considering how much they threw against it, I think that feat alone speaks for the strength of the card.

 

I'm falling asleep

 

One argument that is often overlooked when it comes to the ban of Hex Maniac: The card was simply not fun. Now, I know what you are thinking:”We are talking about a competitive environment, I don't care if my opponent has fun, I just want to win.” Thankfully I agree 110% with this and if it was simply unfun for the opponent to play against I honestly couldn't care less.

No, I'm not talking about the fun for the players, but rather the fun of the spectators.

 

The initial time of S&M was quite interesting ,as new decks emerged and every tournament saw an interesting new tech being added to existing decks. Expanded on the other hand was just boring and sometimes painful to watch. Between Trevenant lock on turn one, Ghetsis and and endless barrage of Hex Maniac, every game went to a full on attrition war. I witnessed many different iterations of the game over the course of the last 4 years and I can say without a doubt that this was by far the worst to watch (heck, even the time with LTC in the format, were you would watch Seismitoad just draw his entire deck, play LTC and then proceed to do the same turn after turn was more fun to watch then this).

I don't know how the viewership numbers compare between the two formats (which is probably difficult to measure anyway, since the majority of the regional tournaments are Standard anyway), but if the idea of Expanded is to present that huge open format with a lot of cool cards, than quite frankly you need en environment that supports fun and creative (and insanely strong) decks.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • 0

01 December 2018 - 01:00 AM

#12

Pokegen85

    Senior Trainer

  • Pokegen85

As saukura stated, these qq threads are basically pointless here.
 
The game mechanic of getting someone down to 4 cards and using a delinquent has been around for a long time.  Before marshadow was around, players used red card and then delinquent. Even though its annoying its not exactly a game breaker and hasnt had much success overall.
 
The online gameplay is suppose to mimic irl as much as possible, the devs and mods here dont control what cards are banned from play (outside of technical online issues). Pokemon card laboratory decides the game mechanics and bans and erratas. They get the feedbacks from judges and players and decide if a certain game mechanic is broken and make a ruling and this is one that they havnt considered broken.


Thanks for the help, XK920XK. When I made this post, I didn’t know who the powers that be were that decided what cards should or shouldn’t be banned. I wasn’t sure whether or not they read feedback from TCG players on the forums, so I started a thread to attempt to start a conversation about a card that I felt was unfair with hopes that if enough people felt the same way, we could convince them at least look into it. Had I known that I would receive salt from so many, I never would’ve started this thread in the first place. The lesson I learned today is that if I have an opinion on any card or gameplay strategy is to don’t write about it and keep it to myself.
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01 December 2018 - 01:33 AM

#13

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

Thanks for the help, XK920XK. When I made this post, I didn’t know who the powers that be were that decided what cards should or shouldn’t be banned. I wasn’t sure whether or not they read feedback from TCG players on the forums, so I started a thread to attempt to start a conversation about a card that I felt was unfair with hopes that if enough people felt the same way, we could convince them at least look into it. Had I known that I would receive salt from so many, I never would’ve started this thread in the first place. The lesson I learned today is that if I have an opinion on any card or gameplay strategy is to don’t write about it and keep it to myself.

A true pity. I thought that you may have been different from the ones who came before you, but it turns out you're just the same. If you really think that's the "lesson" you should be taking from this thread, then you've learned nothing at all. At this point I'm barely amused when the OP refuses to listen to all reason, but it doesn't stop me from feeling disappointed every single time. 

 

Alright, here we go

 

Creative ideas and OP cards

 

The problem that the Expanded format is facing for quite some time now, is the lack of any rotation. Sure, eventually the early BW sets will rotate out of the format and in a couple of years we'll probably look at a XY onwards format, but that would mean that cards from the later XY expansions (such as Hex Maniac and FogP) will stay in the format until the end of times.

 

The problem with a card like FogP is the difficulty in trying to balance two vastly different formats. With FogP in Expanded you'd force the designers to tune down any strong grass type evolution, in order to avoid a scenario where said card can be used to break the Expanded format. Likewise, this is also difficult for other card types, because if you can't print a strong grass type evolution line you'll automatically strengthen Pokemon with a weakness to Grass (as those decks would become inherently weaker than the rest of the field).

It's important to keep in mind that we are talking of high level competitive here, where anything but the best will be discarded.

 

Hex Manaic has a similar issue. With the card lurking around in the Expanded format you quite frankly stifle any creative attempts to integrate new Pokemon with unique abilities into the format. Imagine a deck like Rotom in a world where Hex Manaic is viable. Yeah, fun times.

 

Cawblade 2.0

 

Lets take a moment to talk about Zoroark GX. You'll probably remember a deck called Caw Blade (at least that's what I remember it as). The name was stolen from an older MtG deck that dominated the Standard format and likewise this deck went nuts in the Pokemon Standard format. Consisting of Yveltal EX, Zoroark (acting as a non EX attacker, Keldeo substitution and occasionally Zoroark Break / Nasty Plot Zoroark for a surprise OHKO) and Gallade (Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick).

The deck became immensely popular, spawning several versions (sometimes dropping Gallade for Garbodor) and pretty much dominating the format.

 

Well, as soon as Zoroark GX was printed the card continued the success story.

The biggest asset of the deck was the draw engine, that allowed you to run disruptive supporter cards and still be able to get anything you need from your deck. There was also quite the broken synergy between an opposing Sudowoodo and Eggs. You pretty much run 3-4 Eggs in most versions, because they could be used to power up your Sky field bench quickly. You'd get them into your hand, play Hex (thus disabling the Sudowoodo), then drop your Eggs and OHKO the oposing Pokemon. On your turn Sudowoodo would become active and you could simply discard your eggs and start all over.

In the mirror this became quite ridiculous, because once you were in the Hex lock you couldn't use your own Zoroark, and don't get your Eggs back. However, playing your own Hex would disable your own Sudowoodo, with in turn would result in your opponents Eggs staying on the field, increasing the opposing Zoroark GX's damage. On the one hand that created some pretty interesting game states, on the other hand it was freaking ridiculous.

 

The biggest problem with a midrange deck like Zoroark was the fact that it was so oppressive. With the ability to easily tech in cards like Mew EX or Garbodor to deal with fighting types, easy access to Enhanced Hammer and the above mentioned combo of insane draw engine and disruptive supporters, the deck could answer anything that was thrown against it.

With the ban of Puzzle of Time (another huge asset in the archetype), Hex Maniac and the printing of Faba in the latest set Zoroark has become just a good deck (currently often run in conjunction with Magcargo, to enable a multitude of tech cards), but considering how much they threw against it, I think that feat alone speaks for the strength of the card.

 

I'm falling asleep

 

One argument that is often overlooked when it comes to the ban of Hex Maniac: The card was simply not fun. Now, I know what you are thinking:”We are talking about a competitive environment, I don't care if my opponent has fun, I just want to win.” Thankfully I agree 110% with this and if it was simply unfun for the opponent to play against I honestly couldn't care less.

No, I'm not talking about the fun for the players, but rather the fun of the spectators.

 

The initial time of S&M was quite interesting ,as new decks emerged and every tournament saw an interesting new tech being added to existing decks. Expanded on the other hand was just boring and sometimes painful to watch. Between Trevenant lock on turn one, Ghetsis and and endless barrage of Hex Maniac, every game went to a full on attrition war. I witnessed many different iterations of the game over the course of the last 4 years and I can say without a doubt that this was by far the worst to watch (heck, even the time with LTC in the format, were you would watch Seismitoad just draw his entire deck, play LTC and then proceed to do the same turn after turn was more fun to watch then this).

I don't know how the viewership numbers compare between the two formats (which is probably difficult to measure anyway, since the majority of the regional tournaments are Standard anyway), but if the idea of Expanded is to present that huge open format with a lot of cool cards, than quite frankly you need en environment that supports fun and creative (and insanely strong) decks.

 

I see. This is very interesting. I think I completely understand now, and I completely agree with those arguments. Back then, I would have never thought about a Wally ban (I would have been more than happy to see it gone because of Trevenant, but I never thought it was truly ban-worthy), but now it's a reality. I suppose one could draw parallels between the Marshadow/Delinquent combo that OP is complaining about and the other turn 1 lock strategies, but I think that the ones that were banned were on a whole different level than the ones that remained valid. Ghetsis into Silent Lab was very oppressive (I didn't get to face it too many times, but I think I never managed to win against it whenever I did play against that). Trevenant and Wally was pretty tough too; now I at least get 1 turn to use my items and prepare for the long battle (not that this matters a lot as a Night March player since I get destroyed anyways xd but it really makes a big difference). 

 

While I had never thought about it this way, you're right with FotGP limiting a lot what kind of Grass type Pokemon they could print in the future. I think that TPCi made the right call by realizing that the problematic card was never NXD Shiftry, but rather FotGP, and choosing to ban the Stadium.

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation Felidae, it's very much appreciated.


Edited by Sakura150612, 01 December 2018 - 01:36 AM.

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01 December 2018 - 04:35 AM

#14

Dave230

    Novice Trainer

  • Dave230
Yeah y8u have no idea how much I hate alolan ninetales at the worst moments too. Gardevoir gx I used to hate it bit I've warmed up to it having tried it. So I feel for the original post, but to be fair I don't see it all the time, and same goes with your situation. Giving up that easy it creates more headaches than necessary. Sometimes the best thing to do is throw your hands in the air and move on.
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01 December 2018 - 10:48 PM

#15

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

Yeah y8u have no idea how much I hate alolan ninetales at the worst moments too. Gardevoir gx I used to hate it bit I've warmed up to it having tried it. So I feel for the original post, but to be fair I don't see it all the time, and same goes with your situation. Giving up that easy it creates more headaches than necessary. Sometimes the best thing to do is throw your hands in the air and move on.

Are you running Guzma?  If you have enough of him, it's pretty easy to get around A9T and other, similar cards.


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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02 December 2018 - 12:09 AM

#16

Dave230

    Novice Trainer

  • Dave230
I think part of the problem is I run too many gx s basic pokemon too, so its no so much their fault I mean the opponent. That it renders something like guzma well you could only do so much until it's hard to get out of it. But by the same token the stage ones or 2 s are not as reliable or get beaten easily. I'm still experimenting to see what worksl

Edited by Dave230, 02 December 2018 - 12:13 AM.

  • 1

02 December 2018 - 03:02 AM

#17

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

Yeah, keep trying things out. :) Say, what kind of deck are you using?  We might be able so suggest some non-GX attackers you could add.


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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04 December 2018 - 02:01 AM

#18

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi
Sigh... Pretty much every competitive game has this 'omg this thing is op plz ban' banter against clearly not OP things by new people. I've been playing Identity V a lot lately and we got a lot of those too.

When I first started I convinced myself that Entei EX (yes, EX) is OP cuz *** Mick. Imagine my surprise when I found out how useless it is cuz it's too hard to charge up.

Only thing that will convince them otherwise is time.

Edited by BowserLuigi, 04 December 2018 - 02:04 AM.

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04 December 2018 - 10:39 PM

#19

Pokegen85

    Senior Trainer

  • Pokegen85

Sigh... Pretty much every competitive game has this 'omg this thing is op plz ban' banter against clearly not OP things by new people. I've been playing Identity V a lot lately and we got a lot of those too.
When I first started I convinced myself that Entei EX (yes, EX) is OP cuz *** Mick. Imagine my surprise when I found out how useless it is cuz it's too hard to charge up.
Only thing that will convince them otherwise is time.


I’ve heard rumor of players pairing Entei GX with Magcargo CES and Magcargo GX and having success. I might make a deck that features them both just to test it. I already have the Magcargo half squared away.
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04 December 2018 - 11:42 PM

#20

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I’ve heard rumor of players pairing Entei GX with Magcargo CES and Magcargo GX and having success. I might make a deck that features them both just to test it. I already have the Magcargo half squared away.

I don't know about that one. You know how the power creep works, there will almost always be a new card that does the same thing as the old one and better. LOT Entei has the same attack for 2 energies, and its 3 energy attack is vastly better than Entei-EX's attack, with an all but guaranteed 140 base damage (using CES Macargo's ability), and the chace to hit for 200 damage. Entei-EX has energy acceleration, but 1 energy from the discard for a 3 energy attack is kinda bad tbh. Energy acceleration attacks need to have a relatively low energy cost themselves.


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