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Should Delinquent be banned?


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11 November 2018 - 07:40 AM

#1

Ninjaneering

    Rookie Trainer

  • Ninjaneering

Or more importantly, am I the only one that keeps getting destroyed by turn 1 (or early-game) Delinquent?

 

Before Peeking Red Card was a thing, Delinquent wasn't THAT awful to deal with- it showed up sometimes, but it wasn't completely crippling. Except now I'm constantly running into decks that will Red Card / Marshadow -> stadium -> Delinquent -> Peeking Red card. The combo brings you all the way down to 1 random card, from which there's usually no recovery.

 

I've seen it mostly in turbo Glaceon GX decks, where the SOLE PURPOSE is to bring the opponent down to a single card on the first turn, but it keeps showing up in other decks too- I feel like you shouldn't automatically lose just because they discarded your hand and you can't topdeck anything.


Edited by Ninjaneering, 11 November 2018 - 07:40 AM.

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11 November 2018 - 07:55 AM

#2

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

As far as a ban goes, nope. Hard to see that happening, the nasty Delinquent combos have been around for a while and people don't really think it's strong enough to deserve a ban. My guess is that you've just been extremely unlucky if this keeps happening to you because 1) Not that many people do it. I've yet to see a single Delinquent since coming back at least; 2) I don't think it's consistent enough that it will always take you down to 1 useless card every time. 


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11 November 2018 - 09:38 AM

#3

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

Lets rephrase this: You usually see this combo only in turbo Glaceon GX decks, because that is literally the strategy for this deck.

 

Deliquent is more than fine. Unless you build the entire deck around it the card is fine and even in Glaceon GX decks it's no problem to recover (for the most part). If you are struggling to fight your way back into the game after a turn 1 Deliquent combo I'd simply advise you to try and fit in more draw supporter cards / Trainer Mail, to increase the odds of not getting bricked.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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11 November 2018 - 09:28 PM

#4

Ninjaneering

    Rookie Trainer

  • Ninjaneering

Lets rephrase this: You usually see this combo only in turbo Glaceon GX decks, because that is literally the strategy for this deck.

 

Deliquent is more than fine. Unless you build the entire deck around it the card is fine and even in Glaceon GX decks it's no problem to recover (for the most part). If you are struggling to fight your way back into the game after a turn 1 Deliquent combo I'd simply advise you to try and fit in more draw supporter cards / Trainer Mail, to increase the odds of not getting bricked.

 

Okay... except you would need at least 1/2 of your deck to be draw support in order to, on average, not immediately brick. Potentially more if they hit you with MULTIPLE peeking red cards. (For reference, pre-PRK you only needed 1/5th of your deck, which is kinda normal anyways.) They only need you to brick for 1-2 turns to chew through what few Pokemon you had in play.

 

The problem isn't even necessarily that Delinquent exists, it's that Peeking Red Card made it even more improbable to recover from on a turn 1 basis, and last I checked, half of the current banlist consists of cards that either had potential to, or were abused turn 1.


Edited by Ninjaneering, 11 November 2018 - 09:46 PM.

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11 November 2018 - 10:00 PM

#5

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

Okay... except you would need at least 1/2 of your deck to be draw support in order to, on average, not immediately brick. Potentially more if they hit you with MULTIPLE peeking red cards. (For reference, pre-PRK you only needed 1/5th of your deck, which is kinda normal anyways.) They only need you to brick for 1-2 turns to chew through what few Pokemon you had in play.

 

The problem isn't even necessarily that Delinquent exists, it's that Peeking Red Card made it even more improbable to recover from on a turn 1 basis, and last I checked, half of the current banlist consists of cards that either had potential to, or were abused turn 1.

EDIT: nvm I can't read xd

 

Still though, your opponent is not guaranteed to make you draw a useless card. You won't always be taken down to 1 card, and you won't always top deck a brick. Draw supporters aside, there are several things that can take you out of a bad hand. For example, Shaymin-EX, Tapu Lele-GX, Trainers' Mail, VS Seekers (assuming you were made to discard a supporter, or had already discarded one yourself), Oranguru, Acro Bikes, etc.

 

These won't always save you, but you won't always get takeng to 1 card turn 1. I insist that you just have bad luck. I haven't heard anyone else complain in the recent time that they've been facing Delinquent combos turn 1 on a regular basis.


Edited by Sakura150612, 11 November 2018 - 11:06 PM.

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11 November 2018 - 10:30 PM

#6

Lalamon

    Trainer

  • Lalamon
No. Although the combo is annoying, is not so common as for a ban. It's hard to revive from but it' s not a win condition itself and they won't ban it, be sure.

Pokemommy trainer, better than Ash  :lol:

Sylveon the best https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokedex/sylveon

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11 November 2018 - 11:56 PM

#7

Ninjaneering

    Rookie Trainer

  • Ninjaneering

EDIT: nvm I can't read xd

 

Still though, your opponent is not guaranteed to make you draw a useless card. You won't always be taken down to 1 card, and you won't always top deck a brick. Draw supporters aside, there are several things that can take you out of a bad hand. For example, Shaymin-EX, Tapu Lele-GX, Trainers' Mail, VS Seekers (assuming you were made to discard a supporter, or had already discarded one yourself), Oranguru, Acro Bikes, etc.

 

These won't always save you, but you won't always get takeng to 1 card turn 1. I insist that you just have bad luck. I haven't heard anyone else complain in the recent time that they've been facing Delinquent combos turn 1 on a regular basis.

 

At the very least, they have a good chance to lock you in to need a topdeck using Peeking Red Card. Also keep in mind that a lot of these decks are running Glaceon GX, so Shaymin EX and Tapu Lele GX are effectively useless, even if you do get a Mysterious Treasure or Ultra Ball two turns in. You also usually can't use Vs seeker, since this is usually done turn 1.

 

 

No. Although the combo is annoying, is not so common as for a ban. It's hard to revive from but it' s not a win condition itself and they won't ban it, be sure.

 

True, it's not a win conidition, but it DOES lead to a nearly unavoidable donk and gives you zero chance to respond. I'd honestly prefer Wally + Trevenant, because at least then I can still play Pokemon, energy and supporters.


Edited by Ninjaneering, 12 November 2018 - 12:11 AM.

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12 November 2018 - 12:13 AM

#8

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

But by good, how good are we talking about? I may be asking for the impossible, but the only way to objectively establish if this is problematic or not is with actual numbers. Out of 100 games playing this deck (or against it), how often does it win turn 1? And, if it doesn't win turn 1, what are its chances of wining beyond that? If (and these are hypothetical numbers, so keep that in mind) it had a chance of donking of 30%, with a 30% win rate on the games it doesn't donk, it would only have around a 50% winrate overall, which would be completely average.

 

If you could actually play several games with/against this, record the donk to no-donk ratio, and the win vs loss ratio on the no-donk games, you would have a more solid argument against Delinquent (assuming that the data you collect supports your argument).

 

I could see a ban for this if it could donk you 90% of the times without problem, but I have the feeling that's not the case. Literally everyone and their mother would be spamming this deck in Expanded if it were that good. I know you've seen lots of them, but it seems to be only you so far (at least, among the ones who have participated in this thread). 


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12 November 2018 - 06:44 PM

#9

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

The problem with the cards on the ban list though is that they created an unhealthy game state with little to no effort.

 

Deliquent needs so many tools dedicated to it, least to mention that their main attacker doesn't really deal that much damage in the first place. Add in that you can prepare yourself on your turn if you win the coin flip (i.e. by benching an Oranguru), or that in Expanded you have access to VS Seeker (in a scenario where you have to choose between discarding the draw supporter or the Seeker you always want to discard the first one). Additionally hitting Deliquent + Peeking Red card out of Marshadow (if they are missing the Red Card) isn't guaranteed in the slightest.
 

I should also point out that people probably concede against this deck way too fast. Sure, there are games where you are simply left with no draw for all eternity, but the more common scenario that I've experienced so far is that you are maybe bricked 1-2 turns, and then can start your own engine. While this probably means starting with a disadvantage in the prize count, the lack of any real thread from Glaceons side makes up for this quite nicely.

Again, bad draws happen and sometimes the combo will be enough to finish you off, but that's no reason to ban a card, unless it happens consistently in every game.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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14 February 2019 - 11:22 PM

#10

Ninjaneering

    Rookie Trainer

  • Ninjaneering

https://www.pokemon.com/us/sun-moon-team-up-banned-list-and-rule-changes-quarterly-announcement/

 

Son of a gun.


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14 February 2019 - 11:40 PM

#11

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

[url=https://www.pokemon.com/us/sun-moon-team-up-banned-list-and-rule-changes-quarterly-announcement/]https://www.pokemon.com/us/sun-moon-team-up-banned-list-and-rule-changes-quarterly-announcement/[/url]
 
Son of a gun.


While I was not expecting a Delinquent ban, and I wouldn't have minded it too much if it stayed, I'm still going to say good riddance xd I'm surprised it took them so long to decide it was unhealthy given that Delinquent and Red Card have been around for very long. It's possible that the additional inclusions of Marshadow, Peeking Red Card and Tormenting Spray pushed the strategy past the limit of what they considered to be ok. Perhaps it's just a matter of how popular it has become in the recent time. Again, I'm a bit surprised at this ban but not sad at all. In the end, I'm also happy I won't have to deal with 1 card starting hands xd

The Lusamine ban also seems a bit unexpected, but if it was creating stalemate situations then I think I can understand it. It seems that stall decks are going to take a bit of a hit with this one, but I don't think it's a major loss.


Edited by Sakura150612, 15 February 2019 - 01:35 AM.

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15 February 2019 - 01:19 AM

#12

Sadra

    Senior Trainer

  • Sadra

I feel like the delinquent red card combo is actually much more toxic than before due to the presence of zoroark and marshadow. I feel like people aren't playing the combo in a right way as they are too focused on achieving the red card, peeking red card, delinquent combo on turn 1, most of the times going all in and wasting all their resources on turn 1, rather than playing it in a rather sustainable way throughout the whole game. When you play a deck focused around this combo, your opponent is already set back because he would need to prevent his hand from going to zero on each turn, and the turn 1 ultra ball+ brigette that your opponent plans may seem to risky now. You just need to pull it off once in the entire game and that would just be devastating enough. 


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20 February 2019 - 05:43 PM

#13

Lalamon

    Trainer

  • Lalamon

No. Although the combo is annoying, is not so common as for a ban. It's hard to revive from but it' s not a win condition itself and they won't ban it, be sure.

 

Never say never!

 

The ban doesn't come for Delinquent itself but today there's a bunch of cards supporting the disruption plan and Delinquent was the key card. It seems Pokemon is loosing the fear to ban and I like to keep the game healthy.


Pokemommy trainer, better than Ash  :lol:

Sylveon the best https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokedex/sylveon

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20 February 2019 - 09:01 PM

#14

SandaledOtter

    Elite Trainer

  • SandaledOtter

Ban Energy!

 

Make Delphox/Infernape no-energy a viable deck!


"Swishonk!" That's what's happening!

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21 February 2019 - 02:48 AM

#15

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

What I really want is a format where you can't take prizes.  Obviously, though, the Unown cards would be OP, so we'll have to ban them.  And also, to keep things balanced, if all your pokemon get knocked out you can just wait until you draw another and keep playing.

 

Let us Mill forever!!!


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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21 February 2019 - 12:32 PM

#16

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

What I really want is a format where you can't take prizes.  Obviously, though, the Unown cards would be OP, so we'll have to ban them.  And also, to keep things balanced, if all your pokemon get knocked out you can just wait until you draw another and keep playing.

 

Let us Mill forever!!!

You forgot to mention that LTC is legal in said format ;).


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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Yesterday, 03:42 AM

#17

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

You forgot to mention that LTC is legal in said format ;).

Oh, yeah- well, I thought that went without saying.  :D 


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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