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Zebstrika from Lost Thunder Issue


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06 November 2018 - 04:17 AM

#1

cmg123abc

    Rookie Trainer

  • cmg123abc

When I go to use Sprint with zero cards in hand I cannot. You should be able to, I have checked the official rules. This is very problematic in my testing for upcoming events since I go to play my hand down and then cannot continue to draw cards with that Sprint Ability. Please fix this!


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06 November 2018 - 05:53 AM

#2

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

With its Ability, "you may discard your hand and draw 4 cards," I believe you can't do the 2nd action (draw cards) without doing the 1st.  The wording seems muddy, but the card is working as intended from my understanding.

 

Someone asked a similar question a couple days ago, using Professor Sycamore (or Juniper) as an example.  Doesn't it differ because you're discarding the Sycamore as your last card?


Edited by RobRatt, 06 November 2018 - 05:58 AM.

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06 November 2018 - 12:28 PM

#3

SandaledOtter

    Elite Trainer

  • SandaledOtter

With its Ability, "you may discard your hand and draw 4 cards," I believe you can't do the 2nd action (draw cards) without doing the 1st.  The wording seems muddy, but the card is working as intended from my understanding.

 

Someone asked a similar question a couple days ago, using Professor Sycamore (or Juniper) as an example.  Doesn't it differ because you're discarding the Sycamore as your last card?

I didn't see that one, but wouldn't that reasoning mean you can't use a supporter that requires you to "shuffle your hand into your deck" if it's the last card?

 

For that matter, there are GX attacks that do that as well. If you have 0 cards, shuffling them into your deck is just as impossible as discarding them, so Drampa GX's Big Wheel GX would need to fail, no?

 

Edit: the text of the ability is:

 

Once during your turn (before your attack), you may discard your hand and draw 4 cards.

I could see the failure being correct if it instead read:

 

"...you may discard your hand. If you do, draw 4 cards."


Edited by SandaledOtter, 06 November 2018 - 12:32 PM.

"Swishonk!" That's what's happening!

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06 November 2018 - 02:13 PM

#4

cmg123abc

    Rookie Trainer

  • cmg123abc

With its Ability, "you may discard your hand and draw 4 cards," I believe you can't do the 2nd action (draw cards) without doing the 1st.  The wording seems muddy, but the card is working as intended from my understanding.

 

Someone asked a similar question a couple days ago, using Professor Sycamore (or Juniper) as an example.  Doesn't it differ because you're discarding the Sycamore as your last card?

 

 

I didn't see that one, but wouldn't that reasoning mean you can't use a supporter that requires you to "shuffle your hand into your deck" if it's the last card?

 

For that matter, there are GX attacks that do that as well. If you have 0 cards, shuffling them into your deck is just as impossible as discarding them, so Drampa GX's Big Wheel GX would need to fail, no?

 

Edit: the text of the ability is:

I could see the failure being correct if it instead read:

 

"...you may discard your hand. If you do, draw 4 cards."

You can definitely still do it.

 

Ability: Sprint
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may discard your hand and draw 4 cards.
 
You read line by line, and the text is simultaneous. You still have a hand of zero. You can use Professor Sycamore with zero in hand; Professor Sycamore is not discarded because as you play it you have zero in hand.

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06 November 2018 - 06:58 PM

#5

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

You guys may be right.  I'm not sure of the original intent of this card, and it wouldn't be the first time the Japanese was mistranslated (or needed to be clarified).  Hopefully this conversation will prompt an official ruling, or get this bug added to Known Issues.

 

Here's the official ruling from Juniper/Sycamore:

 

Q. Can I play Professor Juniper if it is the only card in my hand, and then draw 7 cards?
A. Yes, you basically discard your remaining hand of zero cards, then you draw 7 cards from your deck. (Black & White FAQ; Apr 28, 2011 PUI Rules Team)

 

Q. Can you use Professor Juniper or Professor Sycamore with no cards in your deck, just to discard your hand?
A. No, you cannot. Discarding your hand is a cost not the effect, and you cannot play Trainer cards for no effect. (Apr 27, 2017 TPCi Rules Team)


Edited by RobRatt, 06 November 2018 - 07:05 PM.

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07 November 2018 - 07:07 AM

#6

nautiscarader

    Novice Trainer

  • nautiscarader

Of course you should be able to discard your hand if you have no cards, people do it all the time with Sycamore. 


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07 November 2018 - 07:44 AM

#7

mrchub12

    Rookie Trainer

  • mrchub12

This is 100% a bug, we always have a hand, even if its a hand of zero. This wording is the same as sycamore, please fix this.


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09 November 2018 - 04:24 PM

#8

JaceTMS9012

    Rookie Trainer

  • JaceTMS9012

Zebstrika from lost Thunder don't let you draw with hisa Ability when your Hand is Empty.

 

This must be a Bug cause the Card prof. Sycamore for example is ther same Wording and this works with an empty Hand


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09 November 2018 - 07:15 PM

#9

maxcos

    Rookie Trainer

  • maxcos

When you attempt to activate Sycamore you have a hand, though (which consists of Sycamore at least). If you don't have a hand of at least 1 card you haven't the condition to activate Zebstrika's ability. I don't know the ruling in this case but Sycamore isn't a good example since they are 2 different things (namely Sycamore is played from the hand, Zebstrika isn't)


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09 November 2018 - 07:31 PM

#10

TheBlackxRanger

    Novice Trainer

  • TheBlackxRanger

I think we need a clear expanation because its been a hot debate on whether is works with 0 cards in hand or if you need at least 1 (card text does not specify min hand size, errata soon?)


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10 November 2018 - 06:10 PM

#11

King-Magikarp

    Novice Trainer

  • King-Magikarp

When you attempt to activate Sycamore you have a hand, though (which consists of Sycamore at least). If you don't have a hand of at least 1 card you haven't the condition to activate Zebstrika's ability. I don't know the ruling in this case but Sycamore isn't a good example since they are 2 different things (namely Sycamore is played from the hand, Zebstrika isn't)

 

A hand of 0 is still a hand. If Sycamore is the only card in your hand and you play it you discard your hand of 0 and draw 7. Zebstrika is the same thing except it is an ability.

 

 

I think we need a clear expanation because its been a hot debate on whether is works with 0 cards in hand or if you need at least 1 (card text does not specify min hand size, errata soon?)

 

It isn't a hot debate as TPCI has ruled on this type of things years ago. A hand of 0 is still a hand. Just because you don't discard anything does not mean you cant use the ability. Copycat for example lets you shuffle your hand into your deck and draw the same amount of cards that your opponent has in their hand. If they have 0 then you draw 0. There is no errata needed as stated before a hand of 0 is still a hand.


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10 November 2018 - 06:12 PM

#12

King-Magikarp

    Novice Trainer

  • King-Magikarp

The only difference between Sycamore/Juniper and Sprint is that one is a supporter and the other is an ability. The ruling remains the same.


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10 November 2018 - 09:54 PM

#13

Sevenzilla

    Rookie Trainer

  • Sevenzilla

The card says "discard your hand and draw 4 cards". It does not say "If any cards were discarded, then draw 4 cards". If you have no cards in hand, then discarding 0 cards is the same as discarding your hand. Just ran into this bug in a tournament! I think it lost me the match : (


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