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Current best theme deck?


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02 December 2018 - 12:55 AM

#21

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

I really wish they'd have like a Legacy Theme option. Where you could battle players with older decks. 

If by "Legacy," you mean just the old HGSS or BW decks, it wouldn't fly very far.  Yet, it sure would be nice to play some of the older decks without getting creamed by the Sun & Moon monsters.  Maybe they could enhance the definition of "Legacy," just for theme decks, since that format is strictly Online?

 

It would be nice to see two (2) options, to make these decks fair, and worth playing.

 

1.  Standard.  Everything, just like it is now.  And of course, that's going to be dominated by all of the SM-era decks.  Their trainer engine, and Pokémon HP are just too good against most of the older decks.

 

2.  Legacy.  HGSS, BW, and XY decks.  Exclude the S&M decks, and above.  Most of these old decks are balanced among themselves.  Knowing that Garchomp, Empoleon, Entei, Ampharos, and the rest wouldn't appear would make them fun again.


Edited by RobRatt, 02 December 2018 - 01:00 AM.

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05 December 2018 - 06:04 PM

#22

iRockin

    Rookie Trainer

  • iRockin
I only started playing a few days ago. I decided to purchase Blazing Volcano as my first and it feels like I've won nearly every game I've played in themed VS (>75% win rate)
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05 December 2018 - 07:24 PM

#23

SandaledOtter

    Elite Trainer

  • SandaledOtter

I only started playing a few days ago. I decided to purchase Blazing Volcano as my first and it feels like I've won nearly every game I've played in themed VS (>75% win rate)

I've been playing for a couple years. Having purchased Blazing Volcano when it was released, I decided to try it out in a couple events, and I've lost 66% of games with it there.

 

:D


"Swishonk!" That's what's happening!

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05 December 2018 - 08:11 PM

#24

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

I've been playing for a couple years. Having purchased Blazing Volcano when it was released, I decided to try it out in a couple events, and I've lost 66% of games with it there.

 

:D

Dang xD That's some bad luck though. I don't play too much Theme Deck games, but from what little I've used it (and played against it) I'd say that Blazing Volcano feels pretty solid.


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05 December 2018 - 08:59 PM

#25

Chasista

    Elite Trainer

  • Chasista

Dang xD That's some bad luck though. I don't play too much Theme Deck games, but from what little I've used it (and played against it) I'd say that Blazing Volcano feels pretty solid.

 

It's the most prepared-to-win theme deck by far. I've even won vs Imperial command. I've to say I felt like I had kind of new player or someone with first games with they deck in front or not knowing the B. volcano deck cards but anyway I managed to win over weakness and you actually only can Guzma once for Buitzel with Heracross to tie the things. Other water included are not weak to Grass.

 

Hits hard and have the best trainers. Other only deck at that level (to me) is Mach strike for its unique conditions. Rest are good and strong in the format, but would suffer more if not too much weakness each to other. Have easy wins and hard loses by its type more than for its construction.

 

But is fun finally some diversity in Theme. That's good.


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06 December 2018 - 12:08 AM

#26

SandaledOtter

    Elite Trainer

  • SandaledOtter

Dang xD That's some bad luck though. I don't play too much Theme Deck games, but from what little I've used it (and played against it) I'd say that Blazing Volcano feels pretty solid.

Well, kidding aside, I meant exactly "a couple" of tournaments.

 

One loss was an awful draw that never got anywhere against Exeggutor, and the other was to the water deck. So 1 win, 2 losses. :)


"Swishonk!" That's what's happening!

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14 December 2018 - 08:00 PM

#27

grommpy

    Novice Trainer

  • grommpy

Here are the Theme Decks I think are competitive in the Theme Format, from best to worst.

 

Blazing Volcano

Storm Caller

Hydro Fury

Leaf Charge

Imperial Command

Mach Strike

Tropical Takedown

Twilight Rogue

 

Playing Theme Versus a lot, I pretty much agree with the first 8 on Otakutron's list, but in no particular order, yet. I disagree with Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang.

 

Problem with Clanging Thunder is that stage 2 Gastrodon and Kommo-o pokemons are just too slow (no auto-evolve), expensive (3 energy) for attacks that don't 1-shot (120-130) compared to the other 8 decks, even though the trainers are somewhat decent. Destruction Fang has the same problem with stage 2 Hydreigon. Although I like Salazzle and Bewear, that last card reminding me of a certain stuffed bear movie comedy, let's keep it at that. :-)

 

All 8 current top theme decks can beat each other, have similar trainers - some a bit better than others, making them a bit more reliable, but all of them can and do brick; weakness do play a part in match-ups where both players draw energy and evolutions as needed, but don't save you if you do brick.


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24 December 2018 - 07:30 PM

#28

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

Playing Theme Versus a lot, I pretty much agree with the first 8 on Otakutron's list, but in no particular order, yet. I disagree with Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang.


I also pretty much agree with what Otakutron said, with the main point of contention being Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang.
 
...
 
The comment was older a month old when grommpy responded to it; things change. ;)
 

Problem with Clanging Thunder is that stage 2 Gastrodon and Kommo-o pokemons are just too slow (no auto-evolve), expensive (3 energy) for attacks that don't 1-shot (120-130) compared to the other 8 decks, even though the trainers are somewhat decent. Destruction Fang has the same problem with stage 2 Hydreigon. Although I like Salazzle and Bewear, that last card reminding me of a certain stuffed bear movie comedy, let's keep it at that. :-)

 
I haven't used Clanging Thunder in a while, so I'm not going to defend it as still being worth it, but I will show some of the reasons why it used to be worth it, and even now isn't an automatic "Duh, it's bad!" kind of Theme Deck.
 
Kommo-o can use "War Cry" for [CC].  Your Bench needs to be smaller than your opponent's, but this deck doesn't have many useful Bench-sitters.  Kommo-o lacks the Evolution acceleration of Mach Strike, however, or the potential OHKO-anything-in-Theme option with a Cynthia-backed "Royal Blades".  A Professor Kukui does allow "Clanging Scales" to OHKO almost anything in the Theme Format, however.  Speaking of which, Kommo-o has 160 HP itself, making it very difficult for most Theme decks to OHKO.
 
Gastrodon can confuse with "Eerie Fluid" at a cost of [FC] while still doing 30 damage.  Less impressive when a deck has Magcargo to force a Special Condition cure to the top of the deck, but pretty handy.  Earthquake is solid for the Energy required, though damaging your Bench can backfire.  120 HP is reasonably durable, but Grass Weakness is an issue with Tropical Takedown and Leaf Charge still being good Theme Decks.  Of course, the fact that Gastrodon can punish Storm Caller and Leaf Charge's [L] Types shouldn't be ignored.
 
Neither should Alolan Raichu. 70 for three plus 20 per Energy attached to the opponent's Active is good.  So is having a free Retreat Cost so long as any Stadium card is in play.  110 HP with [F] Weakness is not so good, though.
 
The deck is mostly lacking in the improved Trainer support seen in more recent Theme Decks, especially the most recent.
 

All 8 current top theme decks can beat each other, have similar trainers - some a bit better than others, making them a bit more reliable, but all of them can and do brick; weakness do play a part in match-ups where both players draw energy and evolutions as needed, but don't save you if you do brick.

 
Great point, and I'll add that exploiting weakness is important to every one of the decks I listed.  Even Clanging Thunder and Mach Strike; their main Stage 2 attackers cannot hit anything for Weakness, but their supporting [F] Types can.  The fact that two out of the three major forms of Weakness Clanging Thunder can exploit are covered by Mach Strike is as or more important to its "retirement" than it not having quite as good of draw/search support.

 

I didn't get into Destruction Fang in as much detail, because I do still use it from time to time when I've got a [D] Challenge to grind out.  Sure, I could use Tropical Takedown and its Alolan Raticates, but they aren't enough of a presence to reliably show up.  There is also how Hydgreigon really is great in the deck; both its attack and Ability are well suited to the Theme Format.  Still, probably time to give up on it.

 

Anyway, getting back to exploiting Weakness, that really is keeping us from saying the same thing about slightly newer decks than these two; without Ascension, Mach Strike would be mediocre by this point.  Even Empoleon is looking a bit long in the... erm... beak at this point.  We get a modern Psychic and/or Fighting deck, and Twilight Rogue is gone as well.


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28 December 2018 - 10:56 PM

#29

grommpy

    Novice Trainer

  • grommpy

I also pretty much agree with what Otakutron said, with the main point of contention being Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang.
...
The comment was older a month old when grommpy responded to it; things change. ;)


Good to see Otakutron agreeing with Otakutron, if not, what would the world be coming to? :D
But your list was made when the latest theme deck was and is Blazing Volcano. Now I'll forgive you that the meta had not settled yet (and kicked out CT and DF) in the past month, but I'll show in this post that they were over the hill as soon as LC/HF came out (and the reason may or may not surprise you).
 

I haven't used Clanging Thunder in a while, so I'm not going to defend it as still being worth it, but I will show some of the reasons why it used to be worth it, and even now isn't an automatic "Duh, it's bad!" kind of Theme Deck.

Kommo-o can use "War Cry" for [CC]. Your Bench needs to be smaller than your opponent's, but this deck doesn't have many useful Bench-sitters. Kommo-o lacks the Evolution acceleration of Mach Strike, however, or the potential OHKO-anything-in-Theme option with a Cynthia-backed "Royal Blades". A Professor Kukui does allow "Clanging Scales" to OHKO almost anything in the Theme Format, however. Speaking of which, Kommo-o has 160 HP itself, making it very difficult for most Theme decks to OHKO.

Gastrodon can confuse with "Eerie Fluid" at a cost of [FC] while still doing 30 damage. Less impressive when a deck has Magcargo to force a Special Condition cure to the top of the deck, but pretty handy. Earthquake is solid for the Energy required, though damaging your Bench can backfire. 120 HP is reasonably durable, but Grass Weakness is an issue with Tropical Takedown and Leaf Charge still being good Theme Decks. Of course, the fact that Gastrodon can punish Storm Caller and Leaf Charge's [L] Types shouldn't be ignored.

Neither should Alolan Raichu. 70 for three plus 20 per Energy attached to the opponent's Active is good. So is having a free Retreat Cost so long as any Stadium card is in play. 110 HP with [F] Weakness is not so good, though.

 
You're right that Clanging Thunder has powerful pokemon if they get there. My main point against them was their slowness. 3 energy each. That is a lot of energy, against all 8 decks above Clanging Thunder/Destruction Fang:

Blazing Volcano (BV): houndoun + heracros 2 energy
Storm Caller (SC): zebstrike + rakou + ampharos 2 energy
Hydro Fury (HF): frost rotem 1 energy, swampert 3 energy, but heavier hitting
Leaf Charge (LC): sceptile + manectric 1 energy
Tropical Takedown (TT): exeggutor 1 energy, marowak 2 energy
Twilight Rogue (TR): salazzle 1 energy, lycanroc 2 energy
Imperial Command (IC): empoleon + floatzel 2 energy
Mach Strike (MS): lucario + gumchoos 2 energy
 
Recovering from a KO is important to win a match, and both CT (and DF) are lacking in that department despite the not-too-shabbiness of their star pokemon. You also need to contest the early/mid game. But there is more.
 

The deck is mostly lacking in the improved Trainer support seen in more recent Theme Decks, especially the most recent.

 
I've read this argument by several veteran trainers now but it was never quantified. I took the liberty of roughly calculating raw card draw to see how quickly theme decks can cycle. As well as hitpoints and damage per energy (dpe) of the star pokemon. The results are very interesting:

Blazing Volcano (fire, grass):
  • entei, basic, 3 energy, 80-140-200 damage ; 130 hp ; 27-47-67 dpe
  • heracross, basic, 2 energy, 30(120) damage ; 120 hp ; 15(60) dpe
  • houndoom, stage 1, 2 energy, 50(130) damage ; 110 hp ; 25(65) dpe
  • blaziken, stage 2, 3 energy, 90 + 20/all damage ; 150 hp ; 50 dpe - assuming 3 opposing benched pokemon
card draw: +5 +6 +5 +3 +5 +4 +4 over 9 cards (32/9 average 3,55)

Storm Caller (lightning, psychic):
  • raikou, basic, 2 energy, 30(120) damage ; 120 hp ; 15(60) dpe
  • zebstrike, stage 1, 2 energy, 60 damage ; 110 hp ; 30 dpe
  • naganadel, stage 1, 3 energy, 80(160) damage ; 130 hp ; 27(53) dpe
  • ampharos, stage 2, 2 energy, 2x50 damage ; 150 hp ; 50 dpe
card draw: +6 +5 +5 +4 +4 +3 +4 over 9 cards (31/9 average 3,44)

Hydro Fury (water, fire):
  • frost rotom, basic, 2 energy, 70+ damage ; 90 hp ; 35+ dpe - assuming 3 energy on opposing pokemon
  • delcatty, stage 1, 2 energy, 40 damage ; 90 hp ; 20 dpe
  • abomasnow, stage 1, 4 energy, 80 damage ; 130 hp ; 20 dpe
  • swampert, stage 2, 3 energy, 140+ damage ; 160 hp ; 47+ dpe
card draw: +5 +4 +6 +5 +2 +4 +4 over 9 cards (30/9 average 3,33)
[ed.: apricon maker does provide card cycle]

Leaf Charge (grass, lightning):
  • oranguru, basic, 3 energy, 60-120 damage ; 120 hp ; 20-40 dpe
  • manectric, stage 1, 1 energy, 40 damage ; 110 hp ; 40 dpe
  • abomasnow, stage 1, 4 energy, 80 damage ; 130 hp ; 20 dpe
  • lanturn, stage 1, 3 energy, 70(140) damage ; 110 hp ; 27(47) dpe
  • sceptile, stage 2, 1 energy, 80+ damage ; 140 hp ; 80 dpe - assuming 4 energy on own pokemon
card draw: +5 +10 +6 +4 +4 +4 over 9 cards (33/9 average 3,66)

Tropical Takedown (5 types, mainly grass energy):
  • alolan marowak, stage 1, 2 energy, 20-120 damage ; 120 hp ; 40 dpe - assuming 3 alolan on own bench
  • alolan exeggutor, stage 1, 1 energy, 20-120 damage ; 160 hp ; 80 dpe - assuming 3 different energy in discard pile
  • alolan raticate, stage 1, 3 energy for 60-120 or 1 energy for 0-60 damage ; 120 hp ; 20-40 or 0-60 dpe
card draw: +8 +4 +4 +4 +6 over 8 cards (26/8 average 3,25)

Twilight Rogue (psychic, fighting):
  • salazzle, stage 1, 1 energy, 80 damage ; 110 hp ; 40 dpe - assuming an opposing bench or cleanse after the poison
  • lycanroc, stage 1, 2 energy, 20-120 damage ; 120 hp ; 40 dpe - assuming 3 opposing benched pokemon
  • malamar, stage 1, 3 energy, 60 damage ; 90 hp ; 20 dpe
  • dusknoir, stage 2, 3 energy, 30-180 damage ; 150 hp ; 40 dpe - assuming 3 opposing benched pokemon
card draw: +4 +6 +6 +4 +4 over 7 cards (24/7 average 3,43)

Imperial Command (water):
  • floatzel, stage 1, 2 energy, 80 damage ; 100 hp ; 40 dpe
  • abomasnow, stage 1, 4 energy, 80 damage ; 130 hp ; 20 dpe
  • empoleon, stage 2, 2 energy, 120-200 damage ; 160 hp ; 60-100 dpe - assuming 3 benched on both sides
card draw: +8 +4 +6 +4 over 7 cards of 60 (22/7 average 3,14)

Mach Strike (dragon, fighting):
  • gumchoos, stage 1, 2 energy for 20(100) damage or 3 energy 70 damage; 110 hp; 10(50) dpe or 23 dpe
  • lucario, stage 1, 2 energy, 70 damage ; 110 hp ; 35 dpe
  • garchomp, stage 2, 3 energy, 100(200) damage ; 150 hp ; 33(66) dpe
  • hippowdon, stage 1, 4 energy, 100-130 damage ; 140 hp ; 30 dpe
  • type null, basic, 3 energy 70 damage or 2 energy 30(60) damage; 110 hp ; 23 dpe or 15(30) dpe
card draw: +4 +12 +9 over 7 cards of 60 (25/7 average 3,57)

Clanging Thunder (fighting, lightning):
  • raichu, stage 1, 3 energy, 70-130 damage ; 110 hp ; 40 dpe
  • gastrodon, stage 1, 3 energy, 120 damage -10/all ; 120 hp ; 40 dpe
  • kommo-o, stage 2, 2 energy 30(120) damage or 3 energy 130 damage -30/self ; 160 hp ; 15(60) dpe or 43 dpe
  • type null, basic, 3 energy 70 damage or 2 energy 30 damage; 110 hp ; 23 dpe or 15 dpe
card draw: +9 +4 +4 over 6 cards of 60 (17/6 average 2,83)

Destruction Fang (darkness, psychic):
  • bewear, stage 1, 3 energy, 60(120) damage ; 20(40) dpe
  • houndoom, stage 1, 3 energy, 90 damage ; 110 hp ; 30 dpe
  • hydreigon, stage 2, 3 energy, 120 damage ; 160 hp ; 40 dpe
  • salazzle, stage 1, 1 energy, 80 damage ; 110 hp ; 40 dpe - assuming an opposing bench or cleanse after the poison
  • oranguru, basic, 3 energy, 60-120 damage ; 120 hp ; 20-40 dpe
card draw: +4 +9 +4 over 6 cards of 60 (17/6 average 2,83)

Assumptions: I've put Lillie to ed.: +4 and Copycat to +5 for card cycle.
Note: other decks in Sun & Moon have a total card draw of 12/13 over 4/5 cards, making them non-competitive regardless of their pokemon.

We can draw several conclusions from the card draw / power to cycle cards:
  • Average card draw of the trainers that cycle cards of Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang is less than 3.
  • Chance of drawing 1 trainer card that provides cycle in the opening hand is: 48% for theme decks with 6 card draw trainers, 54% with 7, 59% with 8 and 64% with 9! That means a deck with 9 trainers has a chance to "brick" (not draw any evolutions or energy) for 1 in 3 opening hands while a deck with 6 trainers has that same chance for 1 in 2!!
  • Compound effect of card draw is also important: with 17 total card draw power, Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang can draw only 28% of their deck if they hit all their trainer draw cards, which is unlikely. By contrast, the theme decks with 9 card draw trainers can and do draw more than half their deck during a match, more likely due to card draw resulting in more card draw.
  • Card cycle of Imperial Command is a bit on the low side.
  • Mach Srike while high in average card cycle per trainer card still only has 7 trainer cards and needs them despite Ascension to not brick (to get the 2nd Garchomp online fast).
  • Card cycle of Blazing Volcano, Storm caller, Leaf Charge and Hydro Fury is very good!
Looking at the dpe of the "star" pokemon:
  • Taking an average of 40 dpe, we see strong late game from Storm Caller + Imperial Command, strong mid game from Mach Strike + Leaf Charge and strong early game from Blazing Volcano + Tropical Takedown. With Hydro Fury and Twilight Rogue staying average in dpe througout the game.
  • Like Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang, Tropical Takedown and Storm Caller are somewhat held back in their ability to OHKO (One Hit Knock Out). ed.: SC doesn't really care due to Paralyze though, late game.

Great point, and I'll add that exploiting weakness is important to every one of the decks I listed. Even Clanging Thunder and Mach Strike; their main Stage 2 attackers cannot hit anything for Weakness, but their supporting [F] Types can. The fact that two out of the three major forms of Weakness Clanging Thunder can exploit are covered by Mach Strike is as or more important to its "retirement" than it not having quite as good of draw/search support.

 
Happy to add to the discussion. A lot of you are veteran trainers, from whom I am learning a lot!
In terms of the weaknesses Clanging Thunder suffers from, while fighting and grass are nasty weaknesses, the other 8 theme decks suffer just as much if not more:
  • Blazing Volcano (fire, grass): weak vs water, fire
  • Storm Caller (lightning, psychic): weak vs fighting, psychic
  • Hydro Fury (water, fire): weak vs [metal], grass
  • Leaf Charge (grass, lightning): weak vs fire, fighting
  • Tropical Takedown (5 types, mainly grass, fire): weak vs fire, water
  • Twilight Rogue (psychic, fighting): weak vs darkness, grass
  • Imperial Command (water): weak vs lightning, grass
  • Mach Strike (dragon, fighting): weak vs [fairy], fighting, psychic
So based on that fact and the difference in card draw (cycle) above, I think that card draw is (much) more important than weaknesses. Weaknesses only decide matches in tie-scenarios with both decks drawing their hitters and even then, Blazing Volcano somehow plows through Imperial Command and Hydro Fury. Both because of the slowness of their stage 2 water pokemon, as well as the high damage output of Blazing Volcano. It's almost unchecked early game as stage 1 blue pokemon should punish it, but besides Floatzel 80(160) for 2, Prinplup only hits for 40(80) for 2 energy. Marshtomp requires 3 energy to do 70(140) even at stage 1.

Damage output matters, where hitpoints can buy you time. Neither happen without good card draw.
 

I didn't get into Destruction Fang in as much detail, because I do still use it from time to time when I've got a [D] Challenge to grind out. Sure, I could use Tropical Takedown and its Alolan Raticates, but they aren't enough of a presence to reliably show up. There is also how Hydgreigon really is great in the deck; both its attack and Ability are well suited to the Theme Format. Still, probably time to give up on it.

Anyway, getting back to exploiting Weakness, that really is keeping us from saying the same thing about slightly newer decks than these two; without Ascension, Mach Strike would be mediocre by this point. Even Empoleon is looking a bit long in the... erm... beak at this point. We get a modern Psychic and/or Fighting deck, and Twilight Rogue is gone as well.

I also definitely use Destruction Fang for the [Darkness] challenges, it performs a lot better than the best [Fairy] deck (Enchanted Echo from XY series).

As for Mach Strike, without Ascension the Cynthia's help out a lot on cycle and I have seen Garchomps on turn 3 without any Ascension at all. But it does indeed help for consistency.

Empoleon suffers from being stage 2 and its trainers having an average card cycle power of 3,14 (ed.: and only 22 total). You need that early Floatzel or you're relying on Abomaslo-eh-snow.

Twilight Rogue is mostly afraid of grass early game, as there is little darkness to oppose it. Leaf Charge's popularity is keeping it down. Dusknoir wipes the floor with many deck if Twilight Rogue gets that far.

I'll have to analyze hitpoints as well to really calculate my top 8 list. But I hope this contributes to some kind of model to explain the power level of theme decks.

Edited by grommpy, 30 December 2018 - 11:52 PM.

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29 December 2018 - 07:07 PM

#30

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

Good to see Otakutron agreeing with Otakutron, if not, what would the world be coming to? :D
But your list was made when the latest theme deck was and is Blazing Volcano. Now I'll forgive you that the meta had not settled yet (and kicked out CT and DF) in the past month, but I'll show in this post that they were over the hill as soon as LC/HF came out (and the reason may or may not surprise you).


My initial comment was supposed to be taken as tongue-in-cheek; I was saying that I had changed my mind over the past month, due to more testing.  Which means I no longer agreed with myself. XP
 
 

You're right that CT has powerful pokemon if they get there. My main point against them was their slowness. 3 energy each.


Incorrect.  While it requires your Bench be smaller than your opponent's, what made Kommo-o potent when the deck first released was how it could use "War Cry" to do 120 damage for just two Energy attachments (specifically, for [CC]).  I also brought up the usefulness of "Eerie Fluid" on Gastrodon; while it only does 30 damage, [F] Weakness is one of the most common Weaknesses and "Confusion" can either stall or force your opponent to burn resources dealing with it.

 

Which does not mean the deck is still competitive.  It may seem petty, but while I agreed with your conclusion I thought you left out some worthwhile data that needed to be addressed.  I may come back to address the rest of your work later... when I can try reading it again.  I'm not trying to be demanding, but sometimes abbreviations are a bad idea, such as when they have multiple meanings already established. ;)  MS = Microsoft, TR = Team Rocket (the fifth North American set).  Etc.  I will not be surprised if others understand what you wrote easily, and this is a "just me" kind of thing.

 

I also may let it drop because - yet again - I was not disagreeing that the two decks in question were no longer as competitive as I once thought they were.  I stated they still had some merit when the two newest decks were brand new; playing since then has confirmed Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang were obsolete even back then.  I simply needed more time and testing to realize it.  I then pointed out some things that your analysis had glossed over, and perhaps that was a mistake.


Edited by Otakutron, 29 December 2018 - 07:08 PM.

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30 December 2018 - 11:49 PM

#31

grommpy

    Novice Trainer

  • grommpy

Incorrect.  While it requires your Bench be smaller than your opponent's, what made Kommo-o potent when the deck first released was how it could use "War Cry" to do 120 damage for just two Energy attachments (specifically, for [CC]).  I also brought up the usefulness of "Eerie Fluid" on Gastrodon; while it only does 30 damage, [F] Weakness is one of the most common Weaknesses and "Confusion" can either stall or force your opponent to burn resources dealing with it.

Initially I looked at unconditional damage, or conditions easy to pull off. Kommo-o's war cry condition is a lot easier to pull off than I first thought, but is still a stage 2 pokemon. It cannot reliably OHKO and the deck has no other fast late stage pokemon. But the major downside of the deck is the lack of draw.
 

Which does not mean the deck is still competitive.  It may seem petty, but while I agreed with your conclusion I thought you left out some worthwhile data that needed to be addressed.

Not at all, the devil is in the details. I have now included kommo-o's 2nd ability, but looking at the draw power of all sun & moon theme decks, we can see clear "Tiers" of competitiveness based on card draw / cycle trainers alone:
  • Tier 1, +30-33 card cycle: Blazing Volcano, Storm Caller, Hydro Fury, Leaf Charge
  • Tier 2, +22-26 card cycle: Tropical Takedown, Twilight Rogue, Imperial Command, Mach Strike
  • Tier 3, +17 card cycle: Destruction Fang, Clanging Thunder
  • Tier 4, +12-13 card cycle: all other Sun & Moon theme decks
Of course the power of the star pokemon can vary and shift decks up or down a tier, but in terms of consistently drawing the cards you need, this is the list.
 

I may come back to address the rest of your work later... when I can try reading it again.  I'm not trying to be demanding, but sometimes abbreviations are a bad idea, such as when they have multiple meanings already established. ;)  MS = Microsoft, TR = Team Rocket (the fifth North American set).  Etc.  I will not be surprised if others understand what you wrote easily, and this is a "just me" kind of thing.

I added bulleted and numbered lists to my initial reply for readability, and expanding the deck abbreviations to full names.
 

I also may let it drop because - yet again - I was not disagreeing that the two decks in question were no longer as competitive as I once thought they were.  I stated they still had some merit when the two newest decks were brand new; playing since then has confirmed Clanging Thunder and Destruction Fang were obsolete even back then.  I simply needed more time and testing to realize it.  I then pointed out some things that your analysis had glossed over, and perhaps that was a mistake.

I agree, and that was the purpose of my initial reply. I learned as well from facing kommo-o, that while older decks have limited draw power, if they can get their evolutions and energy together, they're still a force to be reckoned with!

Edited by grommpy, 31 December 2018 - 12:01 AM.

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