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Unpopular Opinion of the TCG


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23 July 2018 - 06:40 AM

#1

Spr1nter

    Rookie Trainer

  • Spr1nter

I'll get right to the chase. This game requires no skill, so long as you have GX/EX pokemon.

Before "Ability", there were a number of pokemon that had Pokemon Power. It was a powerful addition to their move list, yet they were put on pause when they were asleep, confused or paralyzed.

Such is not the case now. Abilities can be used regardless of their status conditions, which is completely nonsensical.

If a basic pokemon with abilities was attacked using Spiritomb's Terrify, the former Pokemon can't attack whatsoever. The only move that you can do is retreat - and this should have been the case with status conditions (with exception to Poison).

 

I'll give an example: Leafeon GX is able to heal 50 hp even when it's asleep, confused and/or paralyzed. Therefore, a status condition is almost pointless, especially when there are some Pokemon with abilities to switch out the pokemon which may have a status condition, while being able to attack in the same turn. Since the beginning of the TCG, switching pokemon back to the bench removes all status conditions, so when you switch it back to the original pokemon, it is ready to fight again. With the existence of such overpowered cards, there needs to be an overhaul in the game mechanics.

 

Another pokemon to be mentioned is Palkia-EX. It has a move called Aqua Turbo which generates 2 water energy to a bench pokemon, even if its attack is nullified by an Alolan Ninetales. Before Palkia can fully be knocked out, the bench pokemon is ready to go to knock out Ninetales. To me, there is something very wrong there.

 

I propose a solution: Ban GX/EX cards from Standard and allow them in Expanded.

 

I understand how unpopular this opinion is and I'm more than willing to receive criticism for these viewpoints. I wish to hear some reasoning behind why people feel like the GX/EX pokemon are fair cards to use. They're clearly not.




 


  • -4

23 July 2018 - 07:09 AM

#2

xXTheStalkXx

    Trainer

  • xXTheStalkXx

I strongly disagree, try to build a Gyarados GX deck and see how it goes, (please, I've been trying to build that deck for quite a while and it sucks, no matter how much time and effort you spend trying to make it viable). Playing the game using EX/GX Pokémon requires a good deal of skill, sure, they have powerful abilities and attacks but you need to time your moves right, or else you would screw it and lose the game. 

 

I think the introduction of new mechanics such as EX or GX helps the game stay interesting, also it has to do with power creep, a very natural process in any kind of game. Usually new and powerful mechanics are rejected at first by (think of Planeswalkers in MTG or Link Summons in YGO, very powerful, and hated by most, at first, then became normal). This changes forces players to rethink the way they approach the game from every angle, not only how they play but how they build their decks or even how they evaluate the usefulness of the cards in a set. 

 

Finally, you can win with alternative strategies, there are non GX decks that have decent win rates against EX/GX decks. See Night March, it uses non GX attackers (mostly) and used to be huge in Standard beating all sort of EX-"centric" decks. 


Edited by xXTheStalkXx, 23 July 2018 - 07:26 AM.

  • 1

23 July 2018 - 08:11 AM

#3

ElricDragonlord

    Novice Trainer

  • ElricDragonlord

I played back in the late '90s, when the game begun. And soon I left it, cause no one played in my region, and eventually I grew up and lost interest. Why I'm sayin' this? Because I've gone back to pokemon just because the online game is free to play. What I discovered when I played again? That there's a power creep devastating regarding new pokemons: the ones I played back then where extremely underpowered compared to the new ones. EXs and GXs are part of this power creep, and than they're to be accepted, and exploited: I play a Hoopa deck which have an incredibly high percentage of auto-win, just because a lot of players fill their decks with ex-gx pokemons, and don't have other strategies.

 

Find a strategy to exploit a ex-gx full metagame, embrace the power creep, it's conforting when you accept it! :D


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23 July 2018 - 08:30 AM

#4

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

I'll get right to the chase. This game requires no skill, so long as you have GX/EX pokemon.

So, if both players have EX & GX Pokemon and both have no skill, how do we determine the winner ? Are we stuck in an infinite loop where both instances of GX / EX will cancel each other out of all eternity, or does the player with more EX / GX Pokemon win ? But what if both players have decks that only consists of EX / GX Pokemon ? How can you even beat that ?


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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23 July 2018 - 02:09 PM

#5

Spr1nter

    Rookie Trainer

  • Spr1nter

I strongly disagree, try to build a Gyarados GX deck and see how it goes, (please, I've been trying to build that deck for quite a while and it sucks, no matter how much time and effort you spend trying to make it viable). Playing the game using EX/GX Pokémon requires a good deal of skill, sure, they have powerful abilities and attacks but you need to time your moves right, or else you would screw it and lose the game. 

 

I think the introduction of new mechanics such as EX or GX helps the game stay interesting, also it has to do with power creep, a very natural process in any kind of game. Usually new and powerful mechanics are rejected at first by (think of Planeswalkers in MTG or Link Summons in YGO, very powerful, and hated by most, at first, then became normal). This changes forces players to rethink the way they approach the game from every angle, not only how they play but how they build their decks or even how they evaluate the usefulness of the cards in a set. 

 

Finally, you can win with alternative strategies, there are non GX decks that have decent win rates against EX/GX decks. See Night March, it uses non GX attackers (mostly) and used to be huge in Standard beating all sort of EX-"centric" decks. 

 

Yes, there are strategies around GX decks. Ninetales is an essential part of such a deck, IMHO. But it doesn't help when some GX cards have moves specifically to go through an ability, which, to me, makes zero sense.

 

I have collected a lot of GX/EX cards but I have no such desire to play them at this point in time. The abilities/cards are powerful, but every card has/should have a weakness. I remember when Charizard (the old one with Fire Spin) was devastatingly strong back in the day, but it required you to discard fire energy. His HP wasn't an insane amount, though it was considered high back in the day. Yet, he was still very much defeatable, namely using special conditions. I don't see it behind the case now with certain pokemon.

 

I didn't mention about having dual Decidueye. It has feather arrow that does 20 dmg every turn. I have two of them, which I know will devastate as a supporting role. Its high HP and the fact that it can still be used when it's paralyzed, confused and poison is something that doesn't make sense to me. It used to be that confusion required a coin flip if you were to retreat. They obviously took that out of the game. But retreating used to not be so easy as it is now.

 

I played back in the late '90s, when the game begun. And soon I left it, cause no one played in my region, and eventually I grew up and lost interest. Why I'm sayin' this? Because I've gone back to pokemon just because the online game is free to play. What I discovered when I played again? That there's a power creep devastating regarding new pokemons: the ones I played back then where extremely underpowered compared to the new ones. EXs and GXs are part of this power creep, and than they're to be accepted, and exploited: I play a Hoopa deck which have an incredibly high percentage of auto-win, just because a lot of players fill their decks with ex-gx pokemons, and don't have other strategies.

 

Find a strategy to exploit a ex-gx full metagame, embrace the power creep, it's conforting when you accept it! :D

 

People talk about this power creep but the thing is, there was no need to re-invent the wheel. There were some Pokemon that shouldn't be used in certain circumstances.

 

So, if both players have EX & GX Pokemon and both have no skill, how do we determine the winner ? Are we stuck in an infinite loop where both instances of GX / EX will cancel each other out of all eternity, or does the player with more EX / GX Pokemon win ? But what if both players have decks that only consists of EX / GX Pokemon ? How can you even beat that ?

 

The one who does the most damage wins. Both decks will likely get annihilated to death, but there will always be a winner, no matter what.

 

I think my biggest problem with this game is that an Ability should be put on pause during a status condition (specifically paralysis, confusion and asleep). It shouldn't be allowed to help another bench pokemon during this phase.


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23 July 2018 - 02:51 PM

#6

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi
In all seriousness, you're simply at an early stage when it is common for players to raise the OP flag against EX/GX (against abilities is a rare one though) due to their meagre collection and their (no offense, just without a better word) shortage of skills. Don't worry. You'll get over it eventually.

To put it simply, the majority of cards in PTCG are just bad. There are also many bad EX/GX.

Btw base set Charizard (the one with the 100 damage fire spin) was never a good card, despite having the highest HP and attack power at that time. His downside is that he's simply too slow. The most dominant archetype at that time was Haymaker, which utilizes high HP basics with decent attack power and cost ratio. Charizard just can't keep up with that kind of speed.
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23 July 2018 - 03:00 PM

#7

EpicShonenGuy

    Senior Trainer

  • EpicShonenGuy

There are non gx/ex pokemon stronger that an actual gx or ex, there's no need for a ban on gx/ex cards just for the sole fact that you can take 2 prizes when you knock them out i think you're just in early stage on this game, i remember when i used to complain about lysandre for being so annoying and unfair, aaah good times LoL.


Edited by EpicShonenGuy, 23 July 2018 - 09:16 PM.

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23 July 2018 - 03:06 PM

#8

Princess_Aurora

    Veteran Trainer

  • Princess_Aurora
I have been there at a time where B&W’s Emboar’s Flare Blitz attack (150, discard all fire energy) was considered to be the ultimate, never fail 1HKO move. And Rayquaza lvl.X was considered a Death Star; 200 damage, which is incredibly overkill. If someone told me that one day, there will be a move that costs 3 energies and that hits for 200 (Royal Blades) or that there will be Pokemons with 250HP (Metagross-GX), I would have laughed really, really hard and told them that it was impossible.

But oh, well, with all the newer cards being more powerful, you’ll only look cooler when you use the old stratergies.

EDIT: By comparing a regular card and a EX/GX card, it is obvious that EX/GX pack more firepower and HP than anything else. On a side note, GX cards seem to pack more punch than EX cards, which leads me to think that EX cards are slowly getting obsolete, just like lvl.X cards.

Edited by Princess_Aurora, 23 July 2018 - 03:09 PM.

Friendship is magic!

  • 0

23 July 2018 - 03:37 PM

#9

xXTheStalkXx

    Trainer

  • xXTheStalkXx

-

I think my biggest problem with this game is that an Ability should be put on pause during a status condition (specifically paralysis, confusion and asleep). It shouldn't be allowed to help another bench pokemon during this phase.

 

But, if you main concern is abilities why do you think EX/GX should be banned? There are a lot of non EX/GX Pokémon with great abilities, do you want them banned too?

 

We can use your own example, Alolan Ninetales, do you think its ability should be turn off if your opponent manages to get it poisoned or burned and then KO it with an EX/GX? 

 

Also special conditions are not even that big anymore, you barely see any deck that relies on them to win. 


Edited by xXTheStalkXx, 23 July 2018 - 03:41 PM.

  • 1

23 July 2018 - 05:23 PM

#10

Pokegen85

    Trainer

  • Pokegen85

Hi everyone! I hope all of you are doing wonderfully well. I read through the responses here and would love to weigh in with my two cents.

 

I must disagree with the Spr1nter's complaint about EX/GX Pokemon, as well as the denouncement of Pokemon that have abilities. Using a certain type of Pokemon or its ability does not mean you lack skill. Quite the contrary, making the best of the resources that you have requires skill!

 

Part of the fun of Pokemon TCGO is finding cards that synergize with each other. For example, my current deck "Dan's Steely Knives" has two attackers, my main Solgaleo GX and my auxillary Ultra Necrozma GX, which have high damage attacks, 230 and 260 respectively, at the cost of discarding energies. Solgaleo GX's Sol Burst GX attack gets both set up very nicely, but after the energy is gone, then what?

 

That's where my third weapon, Metagross GX, comes in. The Geotech System ability lets me pull energies out of my discard and put them on my attacker. Solgaleo GX's Ultra Road lets me switch out Pokemon without fear of discarding energy or having to use Float Stone or Switch, saving me valuable deck space. Each Pokemon in my deck serve a specific purpose, as does each trainer card. I even have a regular Solgaleo in my deck as a work around for your aforementioned Alolan Ninetales. The old adage "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail" applies to Pokemon TCGO. If you don't prepare for specific strategies, you are going to lose to them. The introduction of new expansions, card bans, and rotations makes preparation a constant necessity. It is for this reason that the game stays fresh and doesn't lose replay ability.

 

Want to get even with those pesky GX Pokemon? Wait until next expansion and get some Shrine of Punishments put into your deck. This puts damage on GX Pokemon between turns. Combine this with poison and burn and you can take them out fast and grab two prize cards as a reward! Worried about EX Pokemon in standard? On September 1st, they are all getting kicked out due to rotation. Sometimes if you don't like the weather, all you have to do is wait ten minutes for the rain to clear.

 

Have a nice day! :)


  • -1

23 July 2018 - 05:38 PM

#11

Player_Jay

    Veteran Trainer

  • Player_Jay
I can’t be apart of your movement because you are hating on both GX & EX.
I recommend Shifting your anger to only GX Pokémon.

You see I am a Gengar fanatic.
The game gave me a Gengar EX + Mega Gengar EX.
EX Pokémon are the best in my eyes.

The game hasn’t given us a GX Gengar.
For these reasons, I can join your GX anger cause.
Spread the GX Hate, until GX Gengar is released.

Than we will have to go on our separate ways.

Edited by Player_Jay, 23 July 2018 - 05:40 PM.

It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
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02 August 2018 - 07:50 PM

#12

Questbrooks

    Rookie Trainer

  • Questbrooks

Hello. First off, let me say your original post was well written and interesting to read. While I do not agree with your conclusion for my own reasons; I also think it makes no sense from a business perspective. Like I said though, this was a very interesting post with many interesting responses. Best wishes to everyone, and happy adventures with your Pokemon! 


  • 0

04 August 2018 - 10:13 AM

#13

Kostyurik

    Novice Trainer

  • Kostyurik

Leafeon GX is able to heal 50 hp even when it's asleep, confused and/or paralyzed.

Well yeah, Leafeon GX is broken, especially if it evolved from Eevee with "Energy Evolution" ability on the FIRST turn (I just lose a match in Expanded Tournament to guy with this card and came here to yell at the unfairness)

 

As broken as some other cards (Not all of them are EX/GX, for example Greninja-BREAK with "Giant Water Shuriken", Ariados with "Poisonous Nest", Blastoise with "Deluge", Delphox with "Psystorm" or "Blaze Ball", Garchomp with "Bite_Off", Medicham with Ω Barrage, Pyroar with "Intimidating Mane", Alolan Ninetales with "Luminous Barrier", Raticate and Raticate BREAK with "Super Fang", Vespiquen with "Bee Revenge", Pumpkaboo, Joltik and Lampent with "Night March", Forest of the Giant Plants, Lysandre, Team Flare Battle Compressor)

 

But most of the EX/GX pretty fair and not broken, you can have fun playing with or against them.


Have 600+ hours played in PTGCO

  • 0

04 August 2018 - 10:38 AM

#14

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi
^ I'm surprised there's no Buzzvole GX, Zororark GX or Ultra Necrozma GX in that list
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04 August 2018 - 01:12 PM

#15

Pokegen85

    Trainer

  • Pokegen85

^ I'm surprised there's no Buzzvole GX, Zororark GX or Ultra Necrozma GX in that list


Buzzvole GX can be overwhelming if your deck isn’t fast enough to beat it. Those max elixirs are hit and miss though - you might get lucky and have your opponent pull up a fist full of air.

Zoroark GX’s Trade ability is a great asset to the players that use it. For example, I’ve read about Night March decks using Zoroark GX in the background as a workaround for Karen. I have yet to witness this phenomenon for myself though. If I get a Lysandre or Guzma up and running, you better believe that I’m going to pull my opponent’s Zoroark GX out front and take it out first.

Ultra Necrozma GX is my bae. I love her. All you have to do is count to three and she can take out anything with 260 damage. No choice band required. Every deck that I’ve seen with it uses her as a primary attacker. I’m the only one that I know of that uses her for auxiliary. In most cases, I prefer Solgaleo GX out front to absorb hits with its 250 hit points. Ultra Road means that I can switch between the two with ease, and if I’m able to get at least two of my three Metagross GX benched with my high energy count, most players can kiss their pretty little decks goodbye.
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05 August 2018 - 02:05 AM

#16

R4ns0m

    Rookie Trainer

  • R4ns0m

I played the game during the very first set (WotC) then quit because it was boring, I have recently come back. I have only played for about 2 weeks since then (230 games), but please don't let that effect your view of my thoughts. I have played almost every popular TCG ever released, many of them for years.

I'm guessing that your issue is less with when pokemon are allowed to use their abilities and more with how effective the cheaper/older pokemon are compared to the newer/more expensive pokemon. I could be wrong though. It seems like a simple design decision to me, but maybe you have other thoughts? The rationale could be that these pokemon have abilities that transcend the normal learned attack. They are so ingrained in what they are they just happen. I can totally buy that. Even if we can't justify it like that, we definitely can justify it from a design standpoint. If literally every effect in the game can be prevented by a status effect, the meta game would just be people flipping coins until someone gets a "tails". That is both really boring and incredibly aggravating. You would turn a game that has resource management, chess like positioning and move counter move plays into a game that plays like Candy Land. Completely luck based with no meaningful decisions. I'm actually really impressed with how well this game is designed. Not to mention that you can get a tournament winning deck for $150 or less... that is completely unheard of in any TCG.


Power creep is a staple in good TCG design. Some games let it creep too fast, but I would most definitely not count Pokemon in that list from what I can gather. The amount of strategies that are still viable after this past set came out is very solid. In many other TCGs, a new set comes out and the top 3 decks cut thier win percentage in half. I'm currently running Garchomp and winning maybe 45% of the time. That is completely fine. Why? How can you expect a game to live if you can get all the top tier stuff from a beginner deck? If there is no "new cool" in the next set, there is no reason to buy it. If there is no reason to buy it, there is no Pokemon.


Edited by R4ns0m, 05 August 2018 - 02:05 AM.

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