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Post Rotation Ready: Tapu KrowKrow


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03 July 2018 - 01:58 AM

#1

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

Post rotation ready deck using baby Tapu Koko and Honchkrow.

 

Pokémon: 19
x4 Honchkrow 
x4 Murkrow
x2 Inkay
x2 Malamar

x4 Tapu Koko
x1 Tapu Lele GX

x2 Baby Tapu Lele
x1 Necrozma GX

Item/Supporter/Tool: 29
x4 Nest Ball
x4 Ultra Ball
x3 Energy Lotto
x2 Counter Catcher

x2 Field Blower
x1 Rescue Stretcher
 

x4 Cynthia
x3 Lillie
x2 Sophocles


x3 Choice Band

Energy: 12
x6 Psychic Energy
x2 Counter Energy
x4 Double Colourless Energy


Edited by Aduitt, 03 July 2018 - 09:34 AM.

See You Space Cowboy...

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03 July 2018 - 04:11 AM

#2

Player_Jay

    Trainer

  • Player_Jay
I think Necrozma GX is unnecessary.
It is a free 2 Prize card.
Your deck doesn’t really need it.

I would change it for 1 Oranguru.

————————————————————————

Next, you are using Pokémon Fan Club.
You probably don’t need so many Nest Balls.
I would drop 2 Nest Balls.

I would replace 1 for a Pal Pad.
I would replace other for a Gladion.

————————————————————————

Next, you are using Counter Catcher.
I think it is unreliable.
I think you are better off getting something more stable.
I would drop 2 Counters Catcher.

I would replace both with Guzma

————————————————————————

Next, I don’t think Lillie is that good.
Some people disagree.
However, the only way to get value from Lillie is by using it turn 1.
The problem is your deck is using Pokémon Fan Club turn 1.
I think you have 2 options:

Option 1:
Drop all 3 Lillie

Replace 1 with Judge - it disrupted your opponents hand
Replace 2 with **** & Liza

Option 2:
Drop 1 Lillie

Replace 1 with Judge - it disrupted your opponents hand

—————————————————————————

Next, I think Sophocles is trash.
You use 1 card + discard 2 card to draw 4 cards.
It is a net gain of 1.
It is absolutely horrible.

I think you have 2 options:

Option 1:
Drop 2 Sophocles

Replace 2 with more Judge

Option 2:
Drop 2 Sophocles

Replace 2 with more **** & Liza

————————————————————

Lastly, I see you are running Choice Band.
My question is how much use do you get out of it?
Can you 1 shot kill with your deck?
Or
Is your deck mostly a 2 shot kill type of deck?

I haven’t played your deck so I honestly don’t know.
You would know more than me.

The reason I bring this up is because if Choice Band isn’t doing that much for you.
You could consider replacing all 3 for 3 Skate Boards.
Most of your Pokémon are 1 energy retreat Pokémon.
A Skate Board can help them dodge out fast with out burning up any energy.

It is something to think about.

Edited by Player_Jay, 03 July 2018 - 04:12 AM.

It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
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03 July 2018 - 09:28 AM

#3

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

Ok. I feel as if I should justify my deck choices.

I should mention that the main playmakers of this deck are baby Tapu Lele and Honchkrow. Both these Pokémon capitalise on a lot of damage counters on the field.



Necrozma:

- I need to inflict as much spread damage as possible in this deck. 100 to all my opponents GX Pokémon can win me the game.... It has won me many games.



Nest Ball/Pokémon Fan Club:

- I admit that Fan Club might be a little overkill. However I need to set up my field as soon as possible with this deck, that's why I ran it (I will probably swap it out).



Counter Catcher:

- I want to be losing with this deck. I can't use Guzma as I run out of recourses too quickly, meaning I need to use a Cynthia/Lillie instead. Counter Catcher also one-ups Guzma as it is an item, also I don't need to swap out my active Pokémon to use it.



Lillie:

- I have nothing in my hand 90% of the time. It helps me if I can't get to a Cynthia. Also, I can discard it using Sophocles or Ultra Ball if needed.



Sophocles:

- I am running Malamar. I need Psychic Energy's in the discard pile. In this regard, I would not say it is "useless." Also, I will be replacing it with Sightseer when it is released.



Choice Band:

- I need a lot of damage on my opponents field. This helps with that. If I don't need it, I can use it as discard material. Pretty simple.

 

Also, to clarify: This is not a two shot kill deck. The decks aim to end the game in one turn. Baiting my opponent into taking out my Honchkrow, rather than my Tapu Lele.


Edited by Aduitt, 04 July 2018 - 05:11 AM.

See You Space Cowboy...

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04 July 2018 - 01:16 AM

#4

Player_Jay

    Trainer

  • Player_Jay
I would like to respond to your rebuttal:

1- Necrozma:

I understand this Pokémon helped you win games.
However, I am sure against non-GX decks it’s GX isn’t helpful.
You could have replaced Necrozma with an Espeon to do 100 Damage across the board.
This is why I feel Necrozma isn’t 100% necessary.

However, you like him.
You want to keep him in your deck.
I can understand your decision.

What I can’t understand is your refusal to add a draw supporting Pokémon into your deck.
The reason I recommend to replace Necrozma with Oranguru isn’t because Necrozma is bad.
It is because your deck has no draw supporting Pokémon.
This is the main issue!

If you don’t want to change up you Pokémon line up, you will have to cut something in another part of your deck.
Maybe, you could replace 1 energy lotto?

2- Nest Ball/Pokemon Fan Club:

Pokémon Fan Club isn’t overkill.
The 4x Nest Balls are the overall kill.

You run evolution lines.
Pokémon Fan Club helps you set up.

I never said to take out Pokémon Fan Club.
I was recommending to take out 2x Nest Balls.

Your turn 1 play is to search Tapu Lele GX.
Than use Pokémon Fan Club.
You will have 3 Pokémon on your bench after that play unless you drew another Pokémon in starting hand.
This means you only have 1-2 Bench slots left.
There is no reason to have 4x Nest Balls when you only have 2 slots open at max.

3- Counter Catcher:

Wrong mentality!
Your setting your self up closer to defeat by doing that strategy over 1 card that isn’t very good.
Guzma is 100% better.

You run 4x Tapu Koko.
Tapu Koko is a free retreat cost Pokémon.
Guzma the enemy Pokémon.
Select Tapu Koko.
Than retreat into what ever Pokémon.

4- Lillie:

You have no cards in your hand because of all the mistakes in your deck build.
-No Draw Pokémon to prevent you from running low on cards
-No Good Draw Supporters(Sophocles) will always be terrible.
Even Hau is better than Sophocles.

5- Sophocles:

You have 4x Ultra Balls to discard Psychic Energy.

Furthermore, your Pokémon have low HP.
They will die fairly easily vs a lot of decks.
Psychic Energy attached to them will go to discard pile.

No reason to run a bad draw supporter.
It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
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04 July 2018 - 04:35 AM

#5

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

I would have to respectfully disagree.

 

I understand the logic you are basing your opinion off. But as with decks such as Zoroark, I can run cards that are not used 100% of the time. I can do this because I am able to get rid of any cards I don't need. Whether that is shuffling my hand back into the deck, or discarding cards, I can make the decision of whether or not I should be using those cards in the game I am playing.

 

Also, I realise that my Pokémon have low HP. My deck intends to end a game with a one hit KO.

After spreading damage counters across the board via Necrozma GX, Tapu Koko and Latios; I am able to put pressure on my opponents Pokémon as Honchkrow does 10+ damage for every damage counter on the field. This means late game, I am able to 1HKO any of my opponents Pokémon.

This however is a distraction (normally) as I can use Counter Energy (this is why I run counter catcher) on Tapu Lele to move all damage counters to my opponents weak Pokémon, KO'ing their main playmakers. This leaves them stunned. From there, I can use a mix of my remaining Pokémon to defeat their remaining Pokémon. However, normally the game ends by my knocking out three of my opponents GX's.


Edited by Aduitt, 04 July 2018 - 05:10 AM.

See You Space Cowboy...

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04 July 2018 - 05:01 AM

#6

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi
^ Actually Sophocles is slightly better than Hau. Not much obviously. The upcoming Sightseer is infinitely better, that's for sure. Lillie is better. Tate and Liza is better. Judge is (probably) better.

Oranguru is easy to make room for. Just get rid of an energy loto, nest ball or...sophocles.

Fan Club is NOT compulsory. Honestly I would rather run 2 nest balls than one Fan club, and just use Cynthia or Lillie as my first turn draw supporter. Though I do think 4 nest balls are overkill.
  • 1

04 July 2018 - 05:10 AM

#7

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

Yeah. I'll be running sightseer at 2 or three when it comes out.

Also, I need to get Koko out as soon as possible. I run 4 Nest Ball for this reason. I may however swap out a Nest Ball for an Oranguru as I understand that it is a fantastic card.


See You Space Cowboy...

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04 July 2018 - 06:49 AM

#8

Player_Jay

    Trainer

  • Player_Jay
I can’t believe you guys are going to make me defend HAU’s Honor!
What are you guys looking at?

Are you even looking at the deck list?
What on earth makes you guys think Sophocles is better than Hau in this deck?

None of your cards benefit from being in the discard pile except for 6 energies.
Aduitt, you are using 6 Psychic Energies in a 60 card deck.
It is a 1 to 10 ratio.

Discarding 2 Psychic Energy with Sophocles to set up Malamar is a pile dream.
It will rarely ever happen.
The odds are against you.
It’s mathematical.

What is going to happen is your going to draw Sophocles at some random time with 0 energies in your hand.
Than your going to have discard your own resource at a mediocre net gain of +1.
We reach this +1 value by the following method:

————————————————————————————

You use Sophocles from your hand which makes your hand go -1.
You than are forced to discard 2 other cards from your hand.
The Summation of the above is -3 net loss.

You will than draw 4 new cards to your hand which is +4.
The difference goes into the following equation +4 - 3 = +1 net gain.

First Example above shows Sophocles as +1 net gain.

Now let’s go a step further:
Let’s say you have a Malamar on your field + was able to discard 1 Psychic Energy with Sophocles.
You would than be able to activate Malamar placing the discard energy on to 1 of your Pokémon.
What is your new net gain?

Well your previous net gain was +1, but now you are getting back 1 energy from discard pile which is a benefit to you.
You are going +1 because your getting back a card!
The equation to showcase this is + 1 + 1 = +2 is your new net gain.

Second Example shows Sophocles as +2 net gain.

———————————————————————————-

Now comparison to Hau, you will find Hau is slightly better!
You use Hau from your hand which makes your hand go -1.
You will than draw 3 new cards to your hand which is +3

The difference goes into the following equation +3 - 1 = +2 net gain.

Comparison Hau +2 net gain with Sophocles first example +1.
Hau is superior because you are gaining more cards.

Comparison Hau +2 net gain with Sophocles second example +2.
Hau is even in this example.

We can conclude that Hau is either even or superior to Sophocles.
In addition, We can also say that Sophocles needed help from 2 other cards in order to be even with Hau!
The player had to have Inkay + Malamar.

Hau did this net gain all by itself with no help!
It is very important to understand because Hau had a tie with 3 other cards.
Pound for Pound - Hau is better!

—————————————————————————-

And of course Sophocles & Hau are inferior to other draw supporters.

Edited by Player_Jay, 04 July 2018 - 06:51 AM.

It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
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04 July 2018 - 07:12 AM

#9

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi
^ Extra ultra balls, nest balls, field blower maybe. The usual UB offering. And pretty much the 6 psychics (I do feel that Malamar is a bit out of place here).

Though I was being general with the Sophocles>Hau comment. I see no reason to ever run that card (or Hau). If I have to, it will probably end up as UB fuel :P

Edited by BowserLuigi, 04 July 2018 - 07:13 AM.

  • 1

04 July 2018 - 07:40 AM

#10

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

I use Malamar as it provides some great consistency.

 

As for Hau..... Sophocles gets me Energy's in the grave for Malamar and helps ditch cards I don't need..... It's a pretty decent card for this deck.

I will replace Sophocles with Sightseer when it comes out, but until then.... Sopholes is fine.


See You Space Cowboy...

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05 July 2018 - 02:44 AM

#11

Player_Jay

    Trainer

  • Player_Jay
You both still don’t get it.
It doesn’t matter what you discard.
Extra Pokémon, Extra Ultra Balls, Extra Nest Balls, Extra Field Blowers, Extra Energy

You are getting a +1 with Sophocles the majority of the time.
Best Case Scenario is a +2 with Sophocles.

Hau is getting +2 the majority of the time.
Hau by default is considered even or superior.
I have mathematically proven this.

————————————————————————————

You do realize I am here to help you?
If you don’t listen to me, Your deck is the one that suffers.

I have my own Post-Rotation deck.
My Post-Rotation deck isn’t going to suffer.

If I thought Sophocles wasn’t trash, I would say you made a fine card choice.
The fact is Sophocles is trash.
Sophocles is making your deck weak.

———————————————————————————-

Next, You keep talking about a card called Sightseer.
I didn’t have clue what that card was.
I went to google to search it up.

Google gave me the following Description for the card:

Draw cards in your deck until you have 5 cards.
Before drawing, you may discard any number of cards from your hand.

The above card is bad for your deck.
Hmmmmm...I think I said enough.
It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
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05 July 2018 - 04:21 AM

#12

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi
^ Keep in mind that you used the same reasoning with Lillie, concluding that she's similar to Hau based on the 'average' number of cards she draws, despite being painfully obvious to many people that Lillie is superior (seriously just ask anyone).

Net gain is not how you measure a draw supporter's efficiency. The way the game is designed, you can afford to pay 2 cards most of the time. The important thing is that Sophocles allows you to dig through your deck just a tiny bit faster. That's already a good improvement from Hau. The reason Sophocles is never used is because he still draws too little, and unlikely to bail you out of a stuck hand.

And it's not like you can't use the discard to your advantage either. Discarding junk means that you won't draw them again after a Cynthia or N.

Sightseer is a poor man's Sycamore. But post-rotation, it looks promising (in general, not just a specific deck). It probably won't be better than Cynthia, but it is at least equal to Tate and Liza, and much better than Hau and Sophocles.
  • 1

05 July 2018 - 12:17 PM

#13

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

Player_Jay, you have not played the deck.

I would recommended playing the deck before giving any further advice as it gives a clearer picture as to why I run the cards I do.

 

Also, I repeat myself, "Sophocles helps with discarding in this deck." Ultra Ball isn't enough as I need to ditch any and all useless cards that I do not want to draw into.

 

Net gain is nothing when I intend to discard a lot. Also, an empty hand allows me to optimise Lillie. That's why I run it at three.

 

I understand and respect the advice you are giving. However, your advice is not the only one matters. It is not any more valid than anyone else's. This includes my own.


See You Space Cowboy...

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05 July 2018 - 05:53 PM

#14

Player_Jay

    Trainer

  • Player_Jay

^ Keep in mind that you used the same reasoning with Lillie, concluding that she's similar to Hau based on the 'average' number of cards she draws, despite being painfully obvious to many people that Lillie is superior (seriously just ask anyone).

Net gain is not how you measure a draw supporter's efficiency. The way the game is designed, you can afford to pay 2 cards most of the time. The important thing is that Sophocles allows you to dig through your deck just a tiny bit faster. That's already a good improvement from Hau. The reason Sophocles is never used is because he still draws too little, and unlikely to bail you out of a stuck hand.

And it's not like you can't use the discard to your advantage either. Discarding junk means that you won't draw them again after a Cynthia or N.

Sightseer is a poor man's Sycamore. But post-rotation, it looks promising (in general, not just a specific deck). It probably won't be better than Cynthia, but it is at least equal to Tate and Liza, and much better than Hau and Sophocles.

1- Congratulations, you have successfully taken my statements out of context & twisted them in order to disprove me.
Beautiful!
It will take some explaining to unwind this one.

First off, I never said Lillie was inferior to Hau.

Second, I said on average based on my own games Lillie gave the same card pulls to Hau.
I concluded Lillie on average was a +2 net gain in my games.
Hau is a guaranteed +2 net gain.
The difference is Lillie +2 isn’t a guarantee.
Lillie can get you a higher net gain.
The highest Lillie can go with out including the first turn is +6.

The reason I didn’t include the first turn was because I was going to play Pokémon Fan Club Post-Rotation as my first turn supporter similar to the OP on this thread.
This rules out Lillie +7 or +8 possibility.
Lillie is +1 to +6 with out first turn.
Lillie average for me was +2 or higher.
I considered +2 has my average base amount.
Mathematically, Lillie would be in the range +2 to +6 net gain.
This means Lillie is even or superior to Hau.

The problem is I considered this mathematical outcome trash.
I considered Lillie trash based on my above findings.
If I use Lillie, I will get a ball park draw pull with Lillie in the range of +2 to +6.
This means Lillie draw pull is inconsistent.

I was looking for a Post-Rotation card to replace Professor Scyamore.
Pro. Scyamore is a Guarantee +7.
Lillie Ball Park +2 to +6.
Lillie can’t fill Professor Scyamore shoes, but there are 2 trainers that can.
- Illama
- Hala

They both can get you a +7, but they both come with risk.
- Illama is a coin flip which makes Illama inconsistent trash.
- Hala has a restriction only allowing you to get a +7 if you use your GX.

The rest of the time Hala is a +4 equal to a Judge which I will run Judge.
The main issue I face Post-Rotation is that my deck doesn’t run many GX.
I was debating how hard it would be for me to pull off the GX Attack every game to get Hala +7.
If I can’t pull off the GX, Hala average will be +4.
This would means T & Liza which is a +5 is would be better.

—————————————————————————————

2- Bowserluigi wrote “Net gain isn’t how you measure a card efficiency.”
You speak for yourself.
A lot of people measure the worth of a card by its net gain.
It is one of the very best ways of measuring a card.

————————————————————————————

3- Bowserluigi wrote “The important thing is that Sophocles allows you to dig though your deck a tiny bit faster.”

Do you even realize your contradicting yourself?
You say net gain isn’t how you measure a card efficiency, but than say the important thing is to dig through your deck.
Don’t you realize the net gain = digging through your deck.
The higher the net gain.
The faster you are in digging through your deck.
Sophocles is equal to or less than Hau.
Sophocles net gain on average is +1.
Hau net gain on average is +2.
Think what your saying through.
Do I need to give an example to show this?

Let’s say you have 3 cards in your hand + 30 cards in deck.
The 3 cards in your hand are:
- 2x Ultra Balls
- 1x Sophocles

You use Sophocles to ditch these Ultra Balls.
Let’s say you draw 4 energies to keep this example simple.
Your deck now has 26 cards.

Now let’s change the 3 cards in your hand.
The 3 cards in your new hand are:
- 2x Ultra Balls
- 1x Hau
You still have same 30 card deck amount.
You use Hau which lets you draw 3 cards.
Let’s say the 3 cards you draw are energies to keep it the same as previous example.
Your deck now has 27 cards, but you still have further plays.
YOU CAN NOW USE 1 OF THE ULTRA BALLS YOU DITCHED WITH SOPHOCLES.
You use Ultra Ball to discard 2 energies to find a Pokémon.
Your deck now has 26 cards + 1 new Pokémon on your field.

Your Sophocles isn’t digging faster.
It is even or less!
Why? because it net gain is even or less than Hau.
Hau has just broken even with Sophocles.
Is it possible to dig past them?
The answer is Yes!
Remember the new Pokémon you put on your field?
It was Oranguru!
You have 2 cards in your hand
- 1x Ultra Ball
- 1x Energy

You can now activate Oranguru letting you draw 3rd card.
Deck Size = 25
Your now digging past them, but your not even close to stopping!
YOUR SECOND ULTRA BALL IS NOW LIVE!
The 2 copies they ditched are coming back with a vengeance.
Revenge is a meal best served cold.
You know who is coming don’t you?
The second Oranguru.
Why do decks sometimes run 2 copies of Oranguru?
In case 1 of them is prized.
This time it isn’t prized and we are going full stream ahead!
Deck Size = 24

THE SECOND BANANA MASTER IS LIVE!
Banana Master says draw 3 more cards please!
Thank you, Banana Master
Deck Size = 21

What do you think Audience?
Should I keep going or do you think they learned the lesson.
I could burn through that deck like it not even there.
I could make Hau seem like super star, but Hau isn’t a super star.
Hau only gives you 1 extra card compared to Sophocles.
The problem is the plays that 1 extra card is capable of making.

——————————————————————————————

4- I believe Bowserluigi is a very good Pokémon player.
I have seen him give suggestions in the forums.
Most things he says is spot on.
I think he is just confused on how I am stating my argument.
The confusion is causing him to dismiss what I am saying.
This is normal reactions.

Bowserluigi know digging through your deck is very important.
The goal is to get the most cards as possible.
Bowserluigi knows this.

He just isn’t used to hearing people say the above statement in a “Nerdy Way”.
How many people go around saying they are looking for the best Net Gain? Not very many.
It’s like someone saying they are so hungry they want eat large amount of food.
Than you respond with “Oh, your looking to Gorge an Eloquent Cuisine.”
Than they respond with “No, man your wrong. I don’t know anyone named George. I’m just hungry.”

Bowserluigi will be ok.
He will figure out that we are saying the same thing.
He will laugh about it.
Than he will move on and everything will be fine.

——————————————————————————

5- The person who I think will not be ok is Aduitt.
Based on Aduitt deck list + comments on this forum, I think he will be the one to suffer.
Aduitt seems like a Intermediate Player to me.
Aduitt isn’t making beginner errors.
Aduitt is making tech. errors.
He is past the errors most beginners make.
He is making tech. errors which is seen more in Intermediate level.
Look at the card: Counter Catcher for example.

A beginner wouldn’t use Counter Catcher because they don’t understand the value of forcing out an opponents weaken Pokémon.
Aduitt understands the value!
He know forcing out the weaken Pokémon can help him kill the Pokémon.
Than he would get 1 or 2 Prize card.
It is a net gain of +1 or +2.

The only people capable of having enough knowledge to understand this is Intermediate to Advance level players.
The question is what separates the Intermediate player vs Advance player?
The Advance player will play Guzma!
Why? Because of 1 sentence on the Counter Catcher card.

“You can play this card only if you have more prize cards remaining than your opponent.”

This single line is what is separates Intermediate players from Advanced players!
Why? Let’s give an example to show you why.

In this example, you are a World Class Pokémon Advance player.
Your going to battle against a World Class Pokémon Advance player.
In order for your Counter Catcher to be active, Your opponent has to have a small edge!
What did Aduitt say “You want to be losing with this deck.”

Think about this example really hard!
You are a World Class player losing to your World Class opponent.
Now comes the question:

What will stop you from continuing to lose?

The opponent is World Class.
He will play flawlessly. TEXTBOOK
He will be using a deck studied, analyzed, and researched by millions of kids & adults.
You willingly gave this person a small edge.

The World Class Player will grab onto that small edge.
The World Class Player will hold onto it.
The World Class Player will never let it go, until they win.

Advance players don’t give there opponent anything.
Advance players don’t play catch up because the majority of the time you will never be able to catch back up.
You give another Advance player something and it was all they needed in order to win.

Guzma doesn’t give your opponent anything.
You don’t have to be losing or behind to play it.
This is why Advance players like it.

——————————————————————

6- Sightseer is bad for this deck.
It is better for specific decks.

Hmmm...I have said enough for today.

Edited by Player_Jay, 05 July 2018 - 06:02 PM.

It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
  • 0

06 July 2018 - 02:39 AM

#15

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi

^ Dam...I need a computer to sort all of this out.

First of all, I never said that you mentioned Lillie being inferior to Hau. I said that you regard it as equal. Also if Lillie is giving you 3 cards on average (same as Hau), that means on average, you use her when on average you have 4 cards in your hand (including Lillie). Considering that Cynthia puts you at six, this means that you only use 2 cards on average from your new hand for 2 turns! How is that possible??? By right you should be getting more than 3 cards on average with Lillie, especially in conjunction with ultra ball. You should rarely have a hand size bigger than 6, so that voids any discussion where Lillie gives zero cards.

You mentioned Lillie being inconsistent and you're looking for a sycamore replacement. But keep in mind that Sycamore is what is possibly the best draw supporter and possibly the best card in the ENTIRE GAME (only other card that can possibly compete for that title is UB). And no Cynthia is not superior to Sycamore (either equal or slightly worse). Then you mentioned 2 possibe replacements which are Illima and Hala... after failing to realize that both are just as 'inconsistent' as Lillie. One is a 50% chance to draw well, and the other is a... lousy% chance (based on your deck). At least a typical deck is designed in a way that puts Lillie in a favorable position (small-ish hand size, 4 UBs) so that you SHOULD be able to draw more than 3 cards on average. Also v.ilostcount: Illima can't even do a +7.

Also are you seriously even considering Hala for...whatever deck you posted in the other topic? It should be obvious that you're not gonna pull off a GX very easily with that deck. Tapu Lele's GX is mostly useless for your deck and using it is like giving your opponent a free turn. Zygarde GX's is okay but it costs 4 energies and 2 of them must be fighting. Simply put, you can't rely on burning it to activate Hala! Just use Sightseer or T&L. GX attacks are meant to be saved for when you needed them, not expend ASAP to improve an otherwise lousy supporter (a POSSIBLE exception might be Hoopa/Wishiwashi stall, where the player would find it desirable to use Xurkitree's Lighting GX early in the game, but even then that deck doesn't need Hala anyway.

Also how can you just 'assume' that the sophocles+UB scenario will work the same in any situation? What if I say you have a Soph and 2 cards that are useless at that time (say 2 energy). Then I discard those energies with Soph and draw 4 cards (doesn't matter what). If I used Hau, I will be left with 2 useless cards, and 3 random cards. Soph gave me 4 new cards instead. In this situation Soph allows me to 'dig through my deck faster' cuz I end up with less carfs in my deck than in the case where I used Hau. Keep in mind that my scenario has a higher chance of occuring since there are more psychic energy than UB, and even if I play Hau I'm unlikely to end up with yet another UB in my hand anyway.

What I WOULD do in the Soph+UB situatiom is to play UB and grab either Oranguru or Lele, not trusting Soph an inch (then again he will never be part of my deck anyway).

I could go on, but for easier separation of your post into quote blocks, I need a PC.


Edited by BowserLuigi, 06 July 2018 - 11:53 AM.

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06 July 2018 - 05:27 AM

#16

MewSevenSeven

    Senior Trainer

  • MewSevenSeven

————————————————————————————
3- Bowserluigi wrote “The important thing is that Sophocles allows you to dig though your deck a tiny bit faster.”
Do you even realize your contradicting yourself?
You say net gain isn’t how you measure a card efficiency, but than say the important thing is to dig through your deck.
Don’t you realize the net gain = digging through your deck.
The higher the net gain.
The faster you are in digging through your deck.
Sophocles is equal to or less than Hau.
Sophocles net gain on average is +1.
Hau net gain on average is +2.
Think what your saying through.
Do I need to give an example to show this?
Let’s say you have 3 cards in your hand + 30 cards in deck.

.


Delurking to ask a question. I think I followed the discussion up to this point. Using the same example (3 cards in hand, 30 in deck), after I play Hau I have 27 cards left in deck. When I play Soph I have 26 cards in my deck. This is true everytime I play either card, regardless of net gain. Less cards in deck= faster digging through deck, no?
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06 July 2018 - 06:59 AM

#17

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

Delurking to ask a question. I think I followed the discussion up to this point. Using the same example (3 cards in hand, 30 in deck), after I play Hau I have 27 cards left in deck. When I play Soph I have 26 cards in my deck. This is true everytime I play either card, regardless of net gain. Less cards in deck= faster digging through deck, no?


Agreed.
Personally, I’ve left this conversation. At this point, Player_Jay is arguing that a bad card that has next to no synergy with the deck is better than my bad card that has some decent synergy with the deck.
The argument is stupid.

See You Space Cowboy...

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06 July 2018 - 08:12 AM

#18

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi

Delurking to ask a question. I think I followed the discussion up to this point. Using the same example (3 cards in hand, 30 in deck), after I play Hau I have 27 cards left in deck. When I play Soph I have 26 cards in my deck. This is true everytime I play either card, regardless of net gain. Less cards in deck= faster digging through deck, no?

Exactly my point.


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06 July 2018 - 12:49 PM

#19

Player_Jay

    Trainer

  • Player_Jay

Delurking to ask a question. I think I followed the discussion up to this point. Using the same example (3 cards in hand, 30 in deck), after I play Hau I have 27 cards left in deck. When I play Soph I have 26 cards in my deck. This is true everytime I play either card, regardless of net gain. Less cards in deck= faster digging through deck, no?

(3 cards in hand, 30 in deck)
Play Hau - 27 left
Play Sophocles - 26 left

This is true evertime you play either card, BUT YOU HAVE TO MEASURE THE NET GAIN!

Aduitt isn’t playing a Professor Scyamore.
Aduitt is playing a Sophocles.

Bowserluigi & Aduitt are trying to use a Sophocles the same way you would use a Sycamore.
It doesn’t work the same.

Sycamore Decks run extra cards so they can ditch some.
This works with Sycamore because your drawing +7.
A good deck will never brick with a hand size of 7 cards.
Sophocles gives you hand size of 4.
You can brick with a hand size of 4 or below.
Hau is giving you a hand size of 5.

The hand size matters because the more cards in your hand you have the more plays you can make.
The extension combo plays are what give you the net gain.
The extension combo plays are what dig through your deck faster.

Let me give you an example:

You have 0 cards in your hand.
You have 20 cards in your deck.

I have 10 cards in my hand.
I have 25 cards in my deck.

You dug through your deck faster than me, but is it relevant?
You will not stay ahead for long with 0 cards in your hand vs the 10 cards in my hand.

This example shows how your “digging faster” is merely an illusion.
I’m the one who will be actually ahead.

Edited by Player_Jay, 06 July 2018 - 01:01 PM.

It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees Fahrenheit.
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06 July 2018 - 01:20 PM

#20

Aduitt

    Rookie Trainer

  • Aduitt

Player_Jay:

 

Net gain doesn't mean a thing when I can discard  psychic energy for later use (Malamar).

 

Both Hau and Sophocles are bad cards.

I run Sophocles because it helps me discard stuff I don't need.

 

Just run the deck yourself. It's easier to explain that way.


See You Space Cowboy...

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