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Game is Completely Unbalanced


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01 January 2019 - 08:17 PM

#41

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

*sniff sniff* Do I smell rotom tricks?  Hmm...  Unlimited may have a new monster on its hands!

Yeah, I thought about Rotom. You could actually make a half-decent meme deck with that, Greedy Dice, Missing Clover and Magcargo. If Unlimited still existed, that is xd I guess we've still got friend battles though.


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01 January 2019 - 10:41 PM

#42

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

Well, the original 'ex's weren't any good.  They've only really been competitive since Next Destinies- though that's still 6 years. (2019-2012=7.  wait what- HAPPY NEW YEAR!)

Happy New Year.
 
That's OK.  We still love you, even on the rare occasion when you're wrong.  I can only assume you weren't playing competitively from about 2004-2008, because I can think of about a dozen EX decks (or more) that rocked the game.
 
This game has undergone a lot of changes in mechanics, but the first generation of EX's were quite good.  Albeit, things were different back then.  They evolved usually, but Rare Candy, before the rule change, allowed you to evolve from Basic to Stage 2 all in one turn.
 
They tried to get away from EX's over the years, with things like Level X, SP, and Primes.  All the while, throwing in oddball strategies like Delta Species, Ancient Traits, and BREAK cards.
 
When they came back with EX's the second time, I'm still not sure if they figured out the "power creep" problem, because some of the Basic EX's from BW-on did seem a little extreme.  Thank goodness for luck, and the rock, paper, scissors elements to keep things equaled out.  With GX's, we go back to evolving, which changed things once again.
 
I'm not sure how this Tag Team thing is going to work out starting next month -- 3 Prizes or not?  Most players I've talked to seem enthusiastic, but I wonder if that's because it's NEW?  Keep on your toes.
 
I still believe the biggest imbalance in this game is the sheer size of the latest sets.  It's hard, even for active players, to sift through all the trash.  Why do they think bigger and bigger sets is a good thing?  Seems like a recipe for burnout if they don't watch themselves.


Edited by RobRatt, 01 January 2019 - 11:30 PM.

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02 January 2019 - 01:31 AM

#43

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

RobRatt, on 01 Jan 2019 - 4:41 PM, said:
Happy New Year.

That's OK. We still love you, even on the rare occasion when you're wrong. I can only assume you weren't playing competitively from about 2004-2008, because I can think of about a dozen EX decks (or more) that rocked the game.

This game has undergone a lot of changes in mechanics, but the first generation of EX's were quite good. Albeit, things were different back then. They evolved usually, but Rare Candy, before the rule change, allowed you to evolve from Basic to Stage 2 all in one turn.


No, I most certainly wasn't. My first cards were from stormfront. :) So they were used, then? Alright, sorry about that. I was just repeating what I'd heard from someone else, who probably didn't know what they were talking about either. :P Polly wanna cracker!

 

RobRatt, on 01 Jan 2019 - 4:41 PM, said:RobRatt, on 01 Jan 2019 - 4:41 PM, said:
I'm not sure how this Tag Team thing is going to work out starting next month -- 3 Prizes or not? Most players I've talked to seem enthusiastic, but I wonder if that's because it's NEW? Keep on your toes.

I haven't seen anything that makes me think they'll be competitive yet. Even as healing walls, I don't think the three-prize thing is gonna fly. However, I'd like to note that we've finally broken the HP record set in 2013 by Black Kyurem-EX with the Crystal Wall tool (300). The new record is Wailord/Karp, who without tool already ties, but with the FFB hits 340.

And Sakura- I am so building that.


Edited by SuperStone, 02 January 2019 - 01:36 AM.

The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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02 January 2019 - 07:26 AM

#44

kahwai218

    Rookie Trainer

  • kahwai218
A simple advice and guide to beginner ./ newcomers:

You either be consistent and hardworking or you start spending real cash on packs for codes and use them to trade for useful cards(ie: Tapu Lele GX) in game.

There are a few things you can do for newcomers:
1. Grind through the monthly ladder and hit 2k points for all the rewards
2. Grind through the Active Challenge / Daily Challenge. Once your trainer level reach 17, the packs from the challenge are tradable. PS: Every element only contributes 3 levels to your trainer level.
3. Spend your coins on theme deck to have variety of decks before you able to compete in standard. Yes, you have to grind and suffer a little at start.
4. Join ******** - Pokemon Online TCG Community. At times, people will give free codes and some useful stuffs. You just have to try your luck there and also be nice in the community.
5. Stop complaining about how imbalance is the game because everyone starts the same without spending any real money. Just have to be hardworking.

Cheers mate.
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05 January 2019 - 10:55 PM

#45

mholden020

    Rookie Trainer

  • mholden020

In the end, it's up to you what you do with all of this stuff we're telling you, but I'll remind you one last time that the best thing any new player can do is to abandon this "X is OP" mentality and learn how to play properly. The veterans in this forum will help you achieve that, but only if you have the will to do it.

 

Hi Sakura, it seems I did a very poor job of trying to say that I'm starting to understand how my perspective on the game has flipped thanks to everyone's posts here.  The Jirachi example was meant to explain a situation where I was easily able to get rid of a card I thought was ridiculous in the past, and that mindset was the progress I was talking about.  Looking through the responses since my last post I'm inclined to agree with everything stated so far:  The cards aren't the problem, it's a lack of information and a problem with the player's perspective.  

 

I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.  I've taken what I've learned from you all and through research and show my friends, and now all of us are having fun again!


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05 January 2019 - 11:11 PM

#46

Sakura150612

    Elite Trainer

  • Sakura150612

Hi Sakura, it seems I did a very poor job of trying to say that I'm starting to understand how my perspective on the game has flipped thanks to everyone's posts here.  The Jirachi example was meant to explain a situation where I was easily able to get rid of a card I thought was ridiculous in the past, and that mindset was the progress I was talking about.  Looking through the responses since my last post I'm inclined to agree with everything stated so far:  The cards aren't the problem, it's a lack of information and a problem with the player's perspective.  

 

I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.  I've taken what I've learned from you all and through research and show my friends, and now all of us are having fun again!

My apologies, I don't think I read properly either. I know what you meant to say now.


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17 January 2019 - 05:57 PM

#47

Absolem1001

    Rookie Trainer

  • Absolem1001
I also found this game whilst fun is pretty unbalanced. There have been times i made a comeback though so i just chalk it up as how the game works.
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18 January 2019 - 05:07 PM

#48

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

I also found this game whilst fun is pretty unbalanced. There have been times i made a comeback though so i just chalk it up as how the game works.

It's one of those games where the competitive cards are so completely estranged from what presented to beginners that it's hard to get a good picture of how things roll from the first games you play.  ;) 


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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18 January 2019 - 07:43 PM

#49

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

Hope this doesn't come across as nitpicking, because I am almost entirely in agreement with RobRatt on this
 

Personally, I understand the frustration.  It's quite a challenge to (1) figure out which are the best decks, and (2) find and/or purchase all the cards necessary.  But this game isn't for everyone.  It takes commitment, and a lot of time.  Still, that's no reason to claim it's unfair if you're new to the game.  Either you enjoy it, and want the challenge, or you don't?  Feeling "cheated" because you don't have a complete set from Day 1 is selfish and unrealistic.

If someone asked me, "Is this game unbalanced?" or "Should the developers rethink these cards?," I would definitely answer yes.  But for different reasons.  I'm tired of all the garbage cards filling these mammoth sets.  Please, if they need to fix anything, to make it easier for new players, and old, is to streamline the upcoming sets.  Quit filling the booster packs with 80% garbage, so we can actually build good decks with limited resources.


...but I don't want people to get confused about some stuff, especially if they happen to play casually in the Unlimited Format. For those who don't care and are uninterested in such things, you can skip the rest of this post. ;)
 

Geez, EX cards have been part of the game for over 15 years now, ...something like 2003. If you're not used to it by now, you haven't been actively playing or collecting.

 

For those of us not in the Japanese sphere, Pokémon-ex were introduced in EX - Ruby & Sapphire, which officially released in June of 2003.  Barring some promo stragglers, the last Pokémon-ex were released to us in EX - Power Keepers.  EX - Power Keepers was sort of a "catch-all" set, including reprints of several cards released throughout this series, as well as new cards. EX - Power Keepers released in February of 2007, though they remained Modified (Standard) legal until September of 2008. Pokémon-EX didn't show up until BW - Next Destinies in February of 2012.  Pokémon-ex =/ Pokémon-EX in terms of game mechanics; they have similar names and mechanics but are distinct, so card effects that specify one don't apply to the other and you could run (for example) four Mewtwo-ex alongside four Mewtwo-EX in an Unlimited Format deck.

 

Pokémon-ex are actually a bit closer in execution to Pokémon-GX, but I've rattled on enough... and let me again affirm the main point; something like Pokémon-EX or Pokémon-GX has been a part of the Pokémon TCG for nearly 16 years now.  While Pokémon-ex went away, they were replaced by Level-Up (LV.X) cards, which occupied the same rarity.  Oh, and we eventually got Pokémon Prime, which were strictly a design practice and rarity but not an actual game mechanic.  They were just "regular" Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2 cards, whatever was appropriate to that particular Pokémon, in the rarity slot that would later go to Pokémon-EX and usually much stronger than their lower rarity counterpart released in the same set!

 

Pokémon has pretty much always been a game where the Top 20% of the cardpool (sometimes less, sometimes a little more) dominated competitive play, with the rest varying from near-misses to obvious filler or brain-fails.


If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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18 January 2019 - 10:25 PM

#50

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

snip

Unlimited isn't an officially endorsed format.  As such, we don't have technicality rulings on any of the gazillion contradictions it introduces.  As such, it becomes a personal question.  Do you want to consider them the same thing, or not?  I have always played where ex and EX are interchangeable.  After all, the rules regarding them are exactly the same, and while all EXs are basic, that isn't a mechanic as much as a quirk.  There are basic 'ex's as well.


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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18 January 2019 - 11:50 PM

#51

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

Unlimited isn't an officially endorsed format.


You are mistaken. From the bottom of page 25 of the current Play! Pokémon Rules and Resources document:
 

Unlimited decks may contain cards from all Pokémon Trading Card Game expansions and promotional cards that have been released in the United States. Players using cards that have been reprinted in a later expansion must play those cards using the wording of the most recent printing. New expansions are allowed in all rating zones the third Friday after they are released in the United States.

 

You will also find that the official Pokémon TCG's Ban List page includes a second for the Unlimited Format (even though under it just says "No cards are currently banned in the Unlimited format." I believe we are allowed to post the addresses of things from the official Pokémon TCG website, even if we cannot make them an actual hyperlink, so go here for this (and several other) official Pokémon documents:

 

https://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/about/tournaments-rules-and-resources

The Championship Series does not allow Unlimited Format tournaments for the main events, the ones that contribute to qualifying for the World Championship, but they are still permitted for side events.
 

As such, we don't have technicality rulings on any of the gazillion contradictions it introduces.


Here we get into a situation because there are official rulings, but a group of volunteers maintains the sight that easily collects and compiles them. That group actually includes several members of the official Rules Team utilized by TPCi... actually, they predate TPCi, having worked with the precursor companies and even Wizards of the Coast. I know it won't mean anything for me to quote the posts made by officials on this group's website stating such things, so you'll have to do some searching for it or PM me (assuming I am allowed to share links in PM - the policies on such things here can get very confusing).

Even if you don't believe me on the Pokémon TCG Ruling Compendium, you know rules were made when the older cards weren't so old, right? Pokémon-EX debuted in February of 2012... before there was an Expanded Format (which was designed to take the place of the Unlimited Format in competitive play). The Expanded Format didn't officially become a thing until September of 2014.
 

As such, it becomes a personal question. Do you want to consider them the same thing, or not? I have always played where ex and EX are interchangeable. After all, the rules regarding them are exactly the same, and while all EXs are basic, that isn't a mechanic as much as a quirk. There are basic 'ex's as well.[/font]

 

They aren't pronounced the same. Sadly, the source for this is again from members of the Rules Team. Pokémon-ex has you read the two letters together, like the "ex" in "ex-employee". Pokémon-EX is meant to have you read the "EX" as two different letters, so "Pokémon-E-X". Yes, it is confusing but apparently it made enough sense to the powers-that-be in Japan.

You can play how you like with your friends, but I'm telling you there really are rules for this stuff. I'll need to see if I can track down the older rule books... I think they even explained it in there back when Pokémon-EX were brand new.


Edited by Otakutron, 18 January 2019 - 11:54 PM.

If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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19 January 2019 - 12:13 AM

#52

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

@Otakutron, you raise some good "technicalities" on the distinction between the first generation of EX's, and the ones in BW thru XY.  There are differences, mainly that MANY of the 1st Gen did evolve, similar to the current GX's.  The real difference though, has to do with "power creep," which is still growing, and a problem.

 

I've also read newer resources that try to claim they were "small letter" EX's (i.e. Pokémon-ex).  But I'm telling you, everyone spelled them "EX".  The sets were EX sets.  And they were NOT pronounced "ex," like ex-wife.  You would have been laughed out of the room by saying so.

 

Could you possibly point out, in the Compendium EX Rulings (last edited February 1, 2008), where they make this distinction?

 

I don't say this to create a dispute.  Just letting you know.


Edited by RobRatt, 19 January 2019 - 12:35 AM.

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19 January 2019 - 12:36 AM

#53

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

@Otakutron, you raise some good "technicalities" on the distinction between the first generation of EX's, and the ones in BW thru XY.  There are differences, mainly that MANY of the 1st Gen did evolve like the current GX's.  The real difference though, has to do with "power creep," which is still growing, and a problem.

 

I've also read newer resources that try to claim they were "small letter" EX's (i.e. Pokémon-ex).  But I'm telling you, everyone spelled them "EX".  The sets were EX sets.  And they were NOT pronounced "ex," like ex-wife.  You would have been laughed out of the room by saying so.

 

Could you possibly point out, in the Compendium EX Rulings (last edited February 1, 2008), where they make this distinction?

 

I don't say this to create a dispute.  Just letting you know.

 

I appreciate you trying to clear things up, but I was there and... yeah, I pronounced them that way as well. XP I found out I was wrong from posts by PokéPop in the Ask The Rules Team portion of their forums.  If those aren't good enough for you... I don't blame you. XD I trust them because I've been using them for years, so I know when there's this several-year-old post by someone who is (or used to be) relevant from TPCi, that it is legit and still binding.  If I never knew about The Rules Team and how many of them are part of Team Compendium, I'd be very skeptical.  I'll PM you the links, quick.


Edited by Otakutron, 19 January 2019 - 12:37 AM.

If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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19 January 2019 - 12:56 AM

#54

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

Google is my friend.  And I'm no stranger to The PokeGym, then or now.  I found the thread you're referring to, and even though The Compendium is the verified official resource for rulings, the Forum there is not.  Though I respect much of his knowledge, PokePop (Mike) is wrong about this.  He's only one guy.  When every player back then, except one, pronounced them EX (separate letters), I'm sticking with common vernacular.  I was there too.

We're getting in the deep brush here.  Does it really matter?

 

P.S.  I do recognize that Unlimited is a valid format.  Not a fun one IMHO, but it does exist.  There are just too many cards, with unhealthy combos, to make it viable for most players.


Edited by RobRatt, 19 January 2019 - 01:20 AM.

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19 January 2019 - 02:26 AM

#55

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

Google is my friend.  And I'm no stranger to The PokeGym, then or now.  I found the thread you're referring to, and even though The Compendium is the verified official resource for rulings, the Forum there is not.  Though I respect much of his knowledge, PokePop (Mike) is wrong about this.  He's only one guy.  When every player back then, except one, pronounced them EX (separate letters), I'm sticking with common vernacular.  I was there too.

We're getting in the deep brush here.  Does it really matter?

 

P.S.  I do recognize that Unlimited is a valid format.  Not a fun one IMHO, but it does exist.  There are just too many cards, with unhealthy combos, to make it viable for most players.

 

If you're familiar with that place, then make sure you read the pinned comment explaining that yes, the Ask The Rules Team answers are considered official rulings. ;)

 

Oh, and 'Pop wasn't talking about how the players pronounced things, but how they were intended to be pronounced, according to the Pokémon staff he'd interacted with from Japan.  I don't blame you for sticking to just saying both the same way, though.  I always said them both the same and thankfully it almost never comes up anymore so I can just keep doing that. XP


Edited by Otakutron, 19 January 2019 - 02:28 AM.

If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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19 January 2019 - 04:02 AM

#56

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

You are mistaken. From the bottom of page 25 of the current Play! Pokémon Rules and Resources document:
 

Unlimited decks may contain cards from all Pokémon Trading Card Game expansions and promotional cards that have been released in the United States. Players using cards that have been reprinted in a later expansion must play those cards using the wording of the most recent printing. New expansions are allowed in all rating zones the third Friday after they are released in the United States.

 

You will also find that the official Pokémon TCG's Ban List page includes a second for the Unlimited Format (even though under it just says "No cards are currently banned in the Unlimited format." I believe we are allowed to post the addresses of things from the official Pokémon TCG website, even if we cannot make them an actual hyperlink, so go here for this (and several other) official Pokémon documents:

I mean, yeah, but giving general guidelines for the format and endorsing it aren't really the same thing.  In my mind, none of this is relevant until there are Unlimited tournaments, which there probably will never be since it's a wonk format. :P That's because if there are no official tournaments, then it can only be played trainer to trainer.  And if the format only exists trainer to trainer, the rules can only exist trainer to trainer.  If the only place the rules are relevant is your personal game, than why should there be any limitations on them?


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

  • -1

19 January 2019 - 01:52 PM

#57

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

I mean, yeah, but giving general guidelines for the format and endorsing it aren't really the same thing.  In my mind, none of this is relevant until there are Unlimited tournaments, which there probably will never be since it's a wonk format. :P That's because if there are no official tournaments, then it can only be played trainer to trainer.  And if the format only exists trainer to trainer, the rules can only exist trainer to trainer.  If the only place the rules are relevant is your personal game, than why should there be any limitations on them?

 

So if the Expanded Format were abandoned tomorrow, you'd consider all current rulings for it null and void? O_o Like I said, we've had rulings for the Unlimited Format in the past.  If you ask, you can get rulings for it now, they just aren't a priority.

 

Also, not sure what you mean by "endorsed".  You can hold Unlimited Format tournaments and have them recognized by Play! Pokémon, they just don't count towards qualifying for the World Championship.  The last time I checked, it was also a metagame dominated by First Turn Win/Lock decks and tracking down all the cards you'd need for a competitive Unlimited Format deck can be time consuming and/or expensive, so you understand why most folks don't bother with the Format in a formal capacity.

 

They can however, last I checked.  Plus, even unsanctioned Formats can have official rules. ;)  Prior to 2018 the Play! Pokémon Rules and Resources document had rules for 30-Card, 2-on-2 Battles, and Team Play.  Oh, how I wish more people used those!  What I do need to correct is that I'm afraid I'm being unclear; the PTCG Police aren't going to bust down your door if you play the game with incorrect rulings, house rules, etc.  You can do that while otherwise following the Standard Format, even. :)

 

Note: Had to do a significant edit because I worried I was being unclear, and added a little more information in doing so.


Edited by Otakutron, 19 January 2019 - 02:14 PM.

If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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19 January 2019 - 02:25 PM

#58

WingsofFire1014

    Veteran Trainer

  • WingsofFire1014
They can however, last I checked. Plus, even unsanctioned Formats can have official rules. ;) Prior to 2018 the Play! Pokémon Rules and Resources document had rules for 30-Card, 2-on-2 Battles, and Team Play. Oh, how I wish more people used those!

Why do you wish? 60-Card decks give you a lot more time to set up and contemplate on your strategy. With 30-Card decks, you always have to make sure you don't deck out, and cards like Cynthia would remove to many cards from your deck.



P.S. I do recognize that Unlimited is a valid format. Not a fun one IMHO, but it does exist. There are just too many cards, with unhealthy combos, to make it viable for most players.[/quote] I agree. There are just too many cards to use, and with all the cards, the game becomes unbalanced in multiple scenarios.

Hmmmm.. The multi quotes came out wrong.

Edited by WingsofFire1014, 19 January 2019 - 02:26 PM.

Try try again. Never ever quit.
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19 January 2019 - 05:26 PM

#59

Otakutron

    Veteran Trainer

  • Otakutron

While 2-on-2 battles (which refers to just having two Active Pokémon at a time) never "wowed" me, 30-Card sounds interesting and Team Battles are actually quite fun. :)  If it wasn't bad to further split the playerbase, 30-Card would have been great for newer players of the PTCGO, as it replaces the 4 Copy Rule with the 2 Copy Rule.  Even if that didn't make it easier for those with a less-than-robust collection to assemble a better deck, I am fascinated by how having such a small deck can affect various cards, or rather, their usefulness.


If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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19 January 2019 - 05:51 PM

#60

WingsofFire1014

    Veteran Trainer

  • WingsofFire1014

While 2-on-2 battles (which refers to just having two Active Pokémon at a time) never "wowed" me, 30-Card sounds interesting and Team Battles are actually quite fun. :)  If it wasn't bad to further split the playerbase, 30-Card would have been great for newer players of the PTCGO, as it replaces the 4 Copy Rule with the 2 Copy Rule.  Even if that didn't make it easier for those with a less-than-robust collection to assemble a better deck, I am fascinated by how having such a small deck can affect various cards, or rather, their usefulness.

The only time I really even think about making a 30-Card deck is if I want to Playtest something. I don't have the biggest collection so I do Playtest a lot with 30-Card decks. But, I would never use them in actual play with a friend because 60 cards, allows so much flexibility.
Try try again. Never ever quit.
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