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Lost in consistency


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19 March 2018 - 04:36 PM

#1

Eden2902

    Senior Trainer

  • Eden2902
Hi there,

I use mostly the following deck:

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******
##Pokémon - 17
* 1 Mr. Mime BKT 97
* 4 Ralts BUS 91
* 3 Kirlia BUS 92
* 3 Gardevoir-GX BUS 93
* 1 Gallade BKT 84
* 3 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 137
* 1 Alolan Vulpix GRI 21
* 1 Remoraid BKT 31
* 1 Octillery BKT 33
##Trainer Cards - 31
* 2 Choice Band GRI 121
* 4 Rare Candy SUM 129
* 1 Super Rod BKT 149
* 4 Cynthia
* 3 Guzma BUS 115
* 1 Brigette BKT 161
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 1 Parallel City BKT 145
* 4 N FCO 105
* 2 Field Blower GRI 125
* 4 Max Potion GRI 128
##Energy - 12
* 4 Double Colorless Energy NXD 92
* 8 Fairy Energy 9
Total Cards - 60

I tried many decks, but this is by far the most consistent and most powerful deck ever played. Is there any chance to make it perfect or near perfect consistent? I know, that the TCG is much more luck dependend, but for me it's too often, that I am forced to make Lele GX to my active. I've looked at the decks, that are played in regionals, but no deck is as consistent as the deck above. What sadly not means, that the deck above is 100% reliable. I have bad hands and I wish to eliminate those as much as possible because I want to lose just if the opponent is better (rare) or have a better deck (very rare).

So, short: the deck above have to be more consistent (less bad hands) and should stay as one of the best decks (especially since the player think it's good to make garchomp decks xD).

The cake is a lie!

  • 0

19 March 2018 - 05:33 PM

#2

Chasista

    Elite Trainer

  • Chasista

If you have bad hands a Lele as active often, remove one Lele.

 

It's actually the tech, to get the supporter turn one to set up bench mainly. Have a decent HP amount and can attack, but it's not its role although in this deck can hit hard.. So try remove one, and add a second Brigette which is what you really want to get with Lele.

 

I know loosing some resources its' a rough choice but, you underestimate the power of a new fresh 7 cards hand. Yes, Sycamore. Four N and 4 Cynthia is cool but doesn't give speed to the deck. And you can end with half the cards you already had in your 'bad hand'. Seven new fresh cards is more powerful than anything. I would make 2 N and 2 Sycamore.

 

There's not space and the list is quite standard so at the end it's everything choices and playstyles. List is good but I would give that minor changes a try.

 

Additionally, 2 stadiums would be great. Everyone plays mostly 2.so being second, high chances to win that battle. And a second Gallade would help probably. One Rescue stretcher would be useful, once Sycamore added.


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IGN Chasista

  • 3

19 March 2018 - 05:39 PM

#3

picsupes

    Junior Trainer

  • picsupes

Hi there, your deck list seems pretty solid to me. The only thing that seems a little off to me is that you only play 1 copy of Brigette. Since your deck is an evolution deck, you want to maximize your chances of getting off a turn 1 Brigette so that you can set up your board as quickly as possible. Other than that, I have to be honest, there isn't a lot you can do to increase your consistency. You are playing a stage 2 deck and you cannot avoid bad hands from time to time. That being said, you do have the Gallade/Octillery combo to mitigate this issue so always try and prioritize setting them up. You might also consider upping your Octillery line to a 2-2 rather than a 1-1 since it is so important to your consistency. 

 

I know your list is based on the infamous "broken" Gardie list, but I never really bought into the hype. 4 max potions sounds great on paper but in practice I found that they clunked up the deck quite a bit. If everything goes in your favour you know the deck is pretty much unstoppable but if you are looking for increased consistency I would suggest reverting to the older deck lists that ran a 2-2 Sylveon line. 


  • 0

19 March 2018 - 05:55 PM

#4

Mod_Jynthu

    Moderator

  • Mod_Jynthu

Hello Eden2902,

 

Thank you for sharing your deck with us! I hope that you are able to make the improvements that you are looking for!


Moderator Jynthu
Pokémon TCG Online Moderator
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19 March 2018 - 07:41 PM

#5

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

You've now reached a point where your deck can't get “better”. Players might disagree with certain numbers and you can certainly swap 1 copy of card X with one copy of card Y, but the overall consistency will stay the same.

 

However, that also means that the only thing that can be improved is yourself.

 

You are always very keen on blaming “luck”, when in reality most scenarios are simply a result of a small / big errors you made along the road. Try not to play the deck on auto pilot and actually think about your decisions and the long lasting impact they have on the game.

 

There is a good reason why you see the same faces in the top 8 of tournaments repeatedly, even though they play the same deck as everyone else.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • -1

19 March 2018 - 11:43 PM

#6

picsupes

    Junior Trainer

  • picsupes

You are always very keen on blaming “luck”, when in reality most scenarios are simply a result of a small / big errors you made along the road. Try not to play the deck on auto pilot and actually think about your decisions and the long lasting impact they have on the game.



There is a good reason why you see the same faces in the top 8 of tournaments repeatedly, even though they play the same deck as everyone else.


While I agree with the overall gist of what you're saying, I think you're downplaying the role luck can play in the game. Yes, competitive players owe a lot of their success to the keen decision making skills they have honed through practice, and yes, some things like good deck building, correct sequencing, managing resources, anticipating and planning for your opponent's plays, and knowing when and when not to make a certain play can go a long way in determining the outcome of a game, but there are also several things over which a player has little to no control such as who goes first, what cards you prize, and how you draw which can also decide games. At the end of the day, you can't completely avoid variance when playing card games. And closely following competitive play has taught me that competitive players are just as susceptible to bad luck as us mere mortals.

Also, competitive events have a Bo3 format which does help minimize the influence of luck and chance on the result of a match. The format also allows you to learn the matchup against a deck that catches you unawares thus reducing the surprise factor of playing rogue decks. On PTCGO you get one shot against your opponent and sometimes the cards just don't fall in your favor. Deckbuilding is the the primary way of attenuating luck in the game. Having a deck that is able to execute its strategy consistently is just as important as skillful play in game. And I believe, this is what OP was asking advice for.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that it is always possible and necessary to keep improving on your skill as a player, but sometimes "get gud" is just an easy and condescending response to people who are asking for help. Acknowledging that luck plays a part in the game is not to suggest the lack of strategic and skillful play. In the Pokemon TCG, skill often amounts to making your own luck rather than taking it out of the equation entirely. 

 

Edit: Felidae's "Why do you lose?" series is a great resource for players interested in improving themselves, and actually covers many of the points I've made here and more in terms of how to make luck less of a factor in the game. I just have a problem with the assumption that if one complains about variance that they must simply be overlooking their own misplays or even worse "playing on autopilot". I do not know OP so maybe Felidae's characterization is accurate, but it does seem to be a bit presumptive.


Edited by picsupes, 20 March 2018 - 01:49 AM.

  • 0

22 March 2018 - 02:45 PM

#7

Toklopo

    Senior Trainer

  • Toklopo

Apart from the possibility of a bad starting hand, (either just plain bad or compared to what the opponent starts with) the chance of getting an unfavourable match-up, Crushing Hammer/Team Rocket/Lasers (and to a lesser extent Order Pad in Standard and Super Scoop Up) coinflips, bad draws from a/n N/Cynthia/Theory, too many key cards being prized, and the determining coin flip as to who gets to go first there is no luck at all involved in this game, especially online where there is no real BO3.

/sarcasm

This is even more so in Standard which has become a really inconsistent format since last rotation and is still recovering.

As for the list that Eden posted, I believe the only way to make Gardevoir more consistent right now (surprise, surprise) is to run it with Zoroark/Mew-EX and 2x Gallade. You can cut the Octillery line and probably most of the Max Potions since this is not a stall version of Garde and you can (and should) increase the Brigette count to at least 2 and if you have at least a 2-2 Zoroark line (especially if combined with Premonition) you will also need less draw supporters, so you can cut at least 1 Cynthia and 1 N for something more useful. A high count of Sycamore is usually not recommended in stage 2 decks, especially in Standard but keep in mind that 1 copy could always be handy. Not sure if Mr. Mime is needed at all - good if you are up against spread decks but a dead card otherwise. I'd say if you go full-on aggressive with Garde it's not needed. Same for Vulpix, if you go for the Zoroark version it's not really needed. I'm sure you can figure out the rest with some testing.


Edited by Toklopo, 22 March 2018 - 03:41 PM.

  • 0

24 March 2018 - 05:54 AM

#8

Sadra

    Senior Trainer

  • Sadra

Hi there,

I use mostly the following deck:

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******
##Pokémon - 17
* 1 Mr. Mime BKT 97
* 4 Ralts BUS 91
* 3 Kirlia BUS 92
* 3 Gardevoir-GX BUS 93
* 1 Gallade BKT 84
* 3 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 137
* 1 Alolan Vulpix GRI 21
* 1 Remoraid BKT 31
* 1 Octillery BKT 33
##Trainer Cards - 31
* 2 Choice Band GRI 121
* 4 Rare Candy SUM 129
* 1 Super Rod BKT 149
* 4 Cynthia
* 3 Guzma BUS 115
* 1 Brigette BKT 161
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 1 Parallel City BKT 145
* 4 N FCO 105
* 2 Field Blower GRI 125
* 4 Max Potion GRI 128
##Energy - 12
* 4 Double Colorless Energy NXD 92
* 8 Fairy Energy 9
Total Cards - 60

I tried many decks, but this is by far the most consistent and most powerful deck ever played. Is there any chance to make it perfect or near perfect consistent? I know, that the TCG is much more luck dependend, but for me it's too often, that I am forced to make Lele GX to my active. I've looked at the decks, that are played in regionals, but no deck is as consistent as the deck above. What sadly not means, that the deck above is 100% reliable. I have bad hands and I wish to eliminate those as much as possible because I want to lose just if the opponent is better (rare) or have a better deck (very rare).

So, short: the deck above have to be more consistent (less bad hands) and should stay as one of the best decks (especially since the player think it's good to make garchomp decks xD).

Gardevoir GX is inconsistent itself and after looking at your deck list the only things that you can do are:

 

1. Add 1 or even 2 more copies of brigette. In my opinion, you MUST get out as many ralts and remoraid as possible on turn 1. This not only helps you set up in time but also thins out your deck, giving you higher chances of drawing into key items in the future.

 

2. Remove 2 or 3 max potions, I sorry if I say this and I do not mean to offend you but this is a bit greedy.  When you already have trouble setting up the top priority is to include as many cards that help accelerate your deck speed since the max potions will not help you if you already lose in the early game. In addition, one or two max potions a game should be enough to win you the game, and considering the fact that max potions are only effective in the mid or late game including 4 of them makes you easier to draw into them and miss the elements you need in the early game and the sad truth is that you will discard a few of them anyway. You should not worry about missing the max potions as in the late game your deck is already thinned out and you should draw into them.

 

3. Include one rescue stretcher, the flexibility of this card should never be neglected.

 

4. Convert your draw supporter engine into 4 Cynthia, 3N, 2 professor sycamore.


Edited by Sadra, 24 March 2018 - 05:56 AM.

  • 2

25 March 2018 - 01:46 PM

#9

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_
[...] Great text that I can't fullquote, because that would look silly

I believe that my comment might have been taken a bit out of context.

 

I'm not saying that there is no RNG / luck in this game. Heck, you'd have to be pretty stupid / arrogant to believe that in a Bo1 scenario you only win because you are a ”good” player.

We all get lucky draws and terrible hands. So do our opponents. Sometimes our most valuable resources are prized and sometimes we are forced to discard them early on. We can run into a type disadvantage 5 games in a row, lose the coin flip and never hit a single Crushing Hammer.

 

However, there is a difference between acknowledging that there is RNG in the game and blaming every lose you take on it. I wouldn't call out someone, unless I frequently read the same statements about luck all the time.

 

I have bad hands and I wish to eliminate those as much as possible because I want to lose just if the opponent is better (rare) or have a better deck (very rare).

 

 

Being able to play out a “bad hand” (ignoring 100% dead draws for a moment) is a skill that one can only develop over time, same is true for figuring out how to cope with difficult situations in the mid / late game. Everyone can play a meta deck if the cards align, the true test is to play and win if something doesn't go as planned. Even with RNG you'll always improve your own skill, as well as your win-rate, if you tackle those scenarios with the right mindset.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • 0

26 March 2018 - 03:13 PM

#10

Eden2902

    Senior Trainer

  • Eden2902
Thank you all for helping! I make some changes and play testing it :)

The cake is a lie!

  • 0

02 May 2018 - 06:44 PM

#11

Eden2902

    Senior Trainer

  • Eden2902
What draw engine is more effective / consistent: Octillery line 1-1 or Zoroark 2-2?

The cake is a lie!

  • 0

02 May 2018 - 07:45 PM

#12

Toklopo

    Senior Trainer

  • Toklopo

With Buzzwole getting insane support in FL, you might want to try playing Garde with Octillery again instead of Zoroark. Otherwise Zoroark is better imo.


  • 0

02 May 2018 - 08:48 PM

#13

Chasista

    Elite Trainer

  • Chasista

With Buzzwole getting insane support in FL, you might want to try playing Garde with Octillery again instead of Zoroark. Otherwise Zoroark is better imo.

 

Same. Zoro is better because in addition, can attack, but it's also risky. Also 1-1 cannot be compared with 2-2, it's obvious. But at the end if you can manage your hands to play Octillery consistently and not having problems if becomes active, should work anyway.


WE WANT LEGACY TOURNAMENTS BACK !!! If you also want it, show your support http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/55966-feedback-making-it-easier-to-get-the-cards-you-want/

My 1st pokémon VGame http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/59894-my-1st-pok%C3%A9mon-videogame-nds-diamond-story-and-help/

Foro en español, también existe: http://forums.pokemontcg.com/forum/2-español/

IGN Chasista

  • 1