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The Real Rant (S04E04: An Open Letter Volume 2)


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10 March 2018 - 03:48 AM

#21

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

Now, back on track. I've thought about this whole issue, read a lot of comments on the forum ( sorry, I'm not checking reddit) and so far the user that nailed the entire thing time and time again has gotten nothing but down-votes.

 

If we're talking about the same post, that's not quite true- the negative number was larger at one point, so some people have upvoted it to bring it closer to zero.


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

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10 March 2018 - 06:47 AM

#22

picsupes

    Junior Trainer

  • picsupes

Oh, and if your argument contains the words “Genesect”, “Celebi” and “OP” you pretty much have no idea what you are talking about, or you are stuck in an ELO **** where no one has yet glimpsed the actual meta game of this format.

 

VirGenCel is far from being the best deck in legacy, but it is probably the quintessential legacy deck. There are of course stronger, and more importantly, more interesting decks in the format, but Virizion's ability does provide a strong counter to many of the lock decks based on status effects that you could build in legacy. I am not sure how I feel about this, but I suppose it's for the best because if it were not for Virizion the format would probably devolve into degeneracy with the strongest decks being based around a total lack of interaction.

 

In another post, you said that Empoleon/Flygon/Dusknoir is the best deck in format and I have to agree with you. Not only is the deck super strong, it also seems like a lot of fun. Dusknoir's ability is exceptional and when you combine it with two of its strongest partners in one deck you have a juggernaut of a deck! But alas I'll probably never get to play it. And this is where I come to my main problem with legacy: Tropical Beach. I have heard all the arguments justifying its exclusivity but it still bothers me that such a playable card is only accessible to a minority of players. A year ago Beaches cost half as much as they do now and they were beyond my means then and they are beyond my means now, and for the foreseeable future. Truly, on PTCGO Beaches do not signify any achievement other than the fact that you've been playing a long time or that you have deep pockets. If all the people who got their Beaches by participating in World's held on to their copies there would be no market for the card. I'm sure its possible to "trade up" to one or two but this seems excruciatingly tedious. It also seems unprincipled to me but there is no law against it so fair play to anyone who managed to get a Beach this way.

 

Anyway, I should probably get over it because I don't see PTCGO ever making it easier to get Beaches. I just had to get this out of my system! :P You are definitely right though: the legacy meta is so much more eclectic and fascinating than people give it credit for. 


Edited by picsupes, 10 March 2018 - 06:54 AM.

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10 March 2018 - 11:48 AM

#23

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

The deck does definitely have a “poster boy” status in the class of '16. It's flashy, can set up blazingly fast and hit for 200 damage on the first turn, while also being immune to Laser and having a build in Lysandre.

However, even back when the holy trinity was Rayeels, Lando + Garb and Genesect, Ray used to tech Victini and Lando had at even 50/50 match-up, depending on the draw even slightly favourable for Lando.

 

Nowadays the deck is merely a relic of the past, since non-EX attackers have taken over the format, leaving the old guys in the dust.

The reason I'm so hostile against the “Genesect so OP!” statement, is that the majority of those come from players who haven't played Legacy in a long while and thus have a rather distorted image of the meta game.

 

As for TB:

Unlike Expanded, where you can't run Wailord / M-Groudon without TB ( ok you can do that, but it's a million times worse), every Legacy deck that gets better with TB also works perfectly fine without it.

Though I'd wish they'd be a little cheaper never the less :D.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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10 March 2018 - 05:02 PM

#24

picsupes

    Junior Trainer

  • picsupes

As for TB:

Unlike Expanded, where you can't run Wailord / M-Groudon without TB ( ok you can do that, but it's a million times worse), every Legacy deck that gets better with TB also works perfectly fine without it.

 

Respectfully, I'll have to disagree. It's true that expanded decks which run Beach (Groudon/Wailord/Shock Lock) are significantly worse if not downright unviable without it, but I think this is just as true for legacy decks which run it. I've built Empoleon/Dusknoir without Beaches and while it does ok because of Empo's Zoroark-ish qualities we are still talking about a deck which requires setting up two stage 2s to execute its strategy perfectly. I wouldn't throw Flygon into the mix without Beaches because that's just asking for punishment. I've tried substituting Beaches with a Twins engine and extra draw supporters and it's just not the same. Other decks I've built which seem to really want Beach are Vileplume variants, KlingKlang, Accelgor/Gothitelle, and also Blastoise- so basically any set up deck. If you're a slower deck that often doesn't attack for the first couple of turns, the extra draw from Beaches can be absolutely crucial.  


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11 March 2018 - 01:23 PM

#25

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

Yeah, running Flygon without TB is rather impossible, at least if you are looking for maximum consistency.

 

That's the list I'm currently running and it's performing quite smoothly, although I just lost a game against the best stall deck I've ever seen in the format :D.

 

Spoiler

 

As for the other decks you mentioned: I usually have a hard time taking tier 2-3 decks into consideration, because even with TB they'd likely lose to Empoleon and Co. without TB.

Though I have a soft spot in my heart for Blastoise. Currently 78-16 with this list, though most of the games were played in late 16 / early 17, so it's not really representative of today's meta.

 

Spoiler

The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

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11 March 2018 - 05:51 PM

#26

picsupes

    Junior Trainer

  • picsupes

Thanks for the lists! I will try them out. 

 

As for the other decks you mentioned: I usually have a hard time taking tier 2-3 decks into consideration, because even with TB they'd likely lose to Empoleon and Co. without TB.

 

I like playing lock/control style decks because they usually involve  a lot of moving parts and it can be very satisfying to put all the pieces together for an unbreakable board. I don't mind losing as long a lot as I can pull off the perfect lock every now and then. 


  • 0

11 March 2018 - 06:59 PM

#27

joeythebigboss

    Senior Trainer

  • joeythebigboss
There are two things I can’t stand playing Pokémon tcg 1) Empoleon /Dusknoir users 2) snorlax/Vileplume lock users
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11 March 2018 - 09:13 PM

#28

picsupes

    Junior Trainer

  • picsupes

There are two things I can’t stand playing Pokémon tcg 1) Empoleon /Dusknoir users 2) snorlax/Vileplume lock users

:lol:


  • 0

14 March 2018 - 06:20 AM

#29

joeythebigboss

    Senior Trainer

  • joeythebigboss

VirGenCel is far from being the best deck in legacy, but it is probably the quintessential legacy deck. There are of course stronger, and more importantly, more interesting decks in the format, but Virizion's ability does provide a strong counter to many of the lock decks based on status effects that you could build in legacy. I am not sure how I feel about this, but I suppose it's for the best because if it were not for Virizion the format would probably devolve into degeneracy with the strongest decks being based around a total lack of interaction.
 
In another post, you said that Empoleon/Flygon/Dusknoir is the best deck in format and I have to agree with you. Not only is the deck super strong, it also seems like a lot of fun. Dusknoir's ability is exceptional and when you combine it with two of its strongest partners in one deck you have a juggernaut of a deck! But alas I'll probably never get to play it. And this is where I come to my main problem with legacy: Tropical Beach. I have heard all the arguments justifying its exclusivity but it still bothers me that such a playable card is only accessible to a minority of players. A year ago Beaches cost half as much as they do now and they were beyond my means then and they are beyond my means now, and for the foreseeable future. Truly, on PTCGO Beaches do not signify any achievement other than the fact that you've been playing a long time or that you have deep pockets. If all the people who got their Beaches by participating in World's held on to their copies there would be no market for the card. I'm sure its possible to "trade up" to one or two but this seems excruciatingly tedious. It also seems unprincipled to me but there is no law against it so fair play to anyone who managed to get a Beach this way.
 
Anyway, I should probably get over it because I don't see PTCGO ever making it easier to get Beaches. I just had to get this out of my system! :P You are definitely right though: the legacy meta is so much more eclectic and fascinating than people give it credit for.

VirGenCel , Don’t know about far from the best deck I’d say it’s top 3 definitely top 5 minimum besides Empoleon / Dusknoir with poke beach what decks are definitely better ?
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14 March 2018 - 03:53 PM

#30

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

VirGenCel , Don’t know about far from the best deck I’d say it’s top 3 definitely top 5 minimum besides Empoleon / Dusknoir with poke beach what decks are definitely better ?

DURANT!!!

 

:P No, but it should be.


The truth waits for no one.  That which you refuse to see, TPCi, slips past you.  The chat function was never your problem, yet through your blindness, you have made it one.

  • 0

14 March 2018 - 07:53 PM

#31

picsupes

    Junior Trainer

  • picsupes

VirGenCel has always struggled to keep up against one prize attackers. Its Weavile matchup was so horrendous that players started to tech in Garbodor in their lists. I'm not saying it isn't a good deck, it certainly is, but it is not the best deck in format like many people seem to think it is. 


  • 0

14 March 2018 - 07:53 PM

#32

joeythebigboss

    Senior Trainer

  • joeythebigboss

DURANT!!!
 
:P No, but it should be.

Durant mill deck hahaha good one.
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14 March 2018 - 11:03 PM

#33

Mod_Turtle

    Moderator

  • Mod_Turtle

Closing thread as requested.


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