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New decks are killing Theme play


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25 April 2018 - 12:52 PM

#41

Sadra

    Senior Trainer

  • Sadra

Great!

So five games in a row you first had a mulligan with this hand.

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong here ;)

There are 2 Gumshoos, 2 Cynthia, 1 Malasada and 20 energies in the deck, so after you had your first mulligan, each of the 4 following ones had a probability of (2*2*1*20*19*18*17)/(60*59*58*57*56*55*54)*7! = 0.12% of being the same by chance. Take that number, put it to the 4th power and inverse it and we get: A similar occurence should only happen once in 475 billion matches on average.

This is 1 million players each playing 10 matches a day everyday for 130 years...

This story strongly points to a RNG bug.

 

How long did the first 4 games take? That's how long the random seed presumably got stuck.

Was the starting hand after the mulligan the same too? If not, either it's not a stuck random seed or a new seed is cooked after a mulligan.

Do you also start with the same hand (no mulligan) several games in a row?

 

It could be that the bug(s) doesn't affect every user. This would be the case if e.g. the user ID is used in the cooking recipe but some IDs lead to bad statistical properties in the recipe.

 

PTCGO, please note that it's good practice to open-source the part of the code that deals with RNG.

 

Side note: an RNG bug could mean there's a best way to open packs!

I think that the RNG codes will never be released by pokemon because many would then just exploit them for wrong uses. Even if there was something fishy about the codes, which I rather believe there isn't, there is basically nothing you can do about it. 


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25 April 2018 - 12:58 PM

#42

TimeComa

    Novice Trainer

  • TimeComa

Agreed, New decks are annoying however I've successfully won against Imperial Command with Forest shadow and Hidden Moon, successfully won against Mach strike with Destruction Fang and Clanging Thunder, Mental Might , Roaring Heat and Rocksteady can be successful aswell. Although not easy it can be achieve but this isn't anything new to the game. Try playing any decks previous to the ones i've just mentioned and you may understand what i'm saying.

Have fun guys!


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27 April 2018 - 12:00 AM

#43

SingingFlyEx

    Trainer

  • SingingFlyEx

I think that the RNG codes will never be released by pokemon because many would then just exploit them for wrong uses. Even if there was something fishy about the codes, which I rather believe there isn't, there is basically nothing you can do about it. 

This is called "security by obfuscation" and has failed in the past, which is why so much security (incl. RNG) code is public even though the potential damage from exploits is much greater that just ptcgo's rng code.

ptcgo is popular enough that a number of knowledgeable people would read the code. I'd expect quite a big /r/ptcgo thread if that code was published. It's also the best way to prove it's safe to playtest on ptcgo.

Why do you believe there's no bug in the rng code?


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27 April 2018 - 01:02 AM

#44

Sadra

    Senior Trainer

  • Sadra

This is called "security by obfuscation" and has failed in the past, which is why so much security (incl. RNG) code is public even though the potential damage from exploits is much greater that just ptcgo's rng code.

ptcgo is popular enough that a number of knowledgeable people would read the code. I'd expect quite a big /r/ptcgo thread if that code was published. It's also the best way to prove it's safe to playtest on ptcgo.

Why do you believe there's no bug in the rng code?

If you have seen any of my previous posts, you can see that I have stated that the same decks have different performances IRL and online. But I have been informed that most players do not experience this and I assumed that maybe I am just unlucky. Still, I am not familiar with programming and I would rather assume that there isn't. 


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27 April 2018 - 05:42 PM

#45

SingingFlyEx

    Trainer

  • SingingFlyEx

the same decks have different performances IRL and online.

If this is true, then either there's a bug or you don't shuffle your deck correctly IRL.

(Studying the effects of good and bad shuffling is certainly advisable for competitive players.)

I only read this forum section. I checked out your thread about bad luck. You don't need a major in computing science to tell confirmation biases/bad luck from bugs, but you need a sane statistical approach. Hammers should get 86% only if the number of flips was low, or lots of statistics were taken and one of them happens to deviate a lot, or there's a bug.

BTW bugged RNG sequences can get the mean right (flips are 50-50 on average) but some correlations wrong (more long sequences with lots of heads or tails than there should be). Then someone comes and say "I've flipped 1000 coins and it doesn't deviate a lot from 500-500 so there's no bug!"...

The current state is: either there's a bug or some users are lying/trolling.


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21 May 2018 - 10:55 PM

#46

Eden2902

    Senior Trainer

  • Eden2902
So, I played the new theme decks and can say, that they aren't the answer to the actually problem. The empoleon and the garchomp deck are still the best and make theme deck format really boring...

The cake is a lie!

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25 May 2018 - 02:37 AM

#47

Oldschool1990

    Veteran Trainer

  • Oldschool1990

I can tell that many players in this threat are not at all familiar with the in-depth meta of this format. That said, I'd recommend not to throw around wild statements without any arguments to back them up.

 

Next analysis coming soon, gotta wreck some more house and get some actual numbers down for various matchups


Edited by Oldschool1990, 25 May 2018 - 02:41 AM.

Specialized on Theme Deck Tournaments.

Contra principia negantem non est disputandum.

  • -2

26 May 2018 - 10:14 PM

#48

Otakutron

    Senior Trainer

  • Otakutron

I'd rather the Theme Decks keep getting better; is it really power creep when each deck is slowly getting to the level it it ought to be?  One of the difficulties I've had on getting people to give the Pokémon TCG (and the PTCGO) a chance is that Starter Decks have been a joke since... well... almost the beginning of the TCG.  A Starter deck should not be as good as a proper, competitive deck, but it should be good enough that it teaches the fundamentals of the game, including deck building and pacing.

 

Since the start of the SM-era, we've been getting closer and closer to proper Theme Decks; before, we had to wait for the rare "good one", or in the case of PTCGO-exclusive Theme Decks, the uncommon "good one".  I'm not happy that the older decks are becoming obsolete so fast.  I am, however, convinced it is necessary.

 

If we really want to fix things?  Change your focus.  We snouldn't be beating up the Devs for decisions made by TPCi, but asking if they can get permission to create a few more PTCGO-exclusive Theme Decks to balance things out a bit.  I mean, I'm not sure if that is even truly necessary.  The two new decks may not be as good as Mach Strike and Imperial Command, but if those two are "overpowered" then we don't want them to be. ;) If we get a good Metal deck and a good Fairy deck, those two are brought to heel.  For some reason, TPCi (or does this fall under TPC's jurisdiction) have odd about rotating Type focus in sets.  Maybe because they want a region focus instead.

 

I mean, in an ideal world, we'd get a new "structure" deck each month, independent of other releases, and it would focus on one TCG Type.  Repeat each year, tweaking according to the new sets and new ban list.  Use this to create a semi-competitive format for rookies, dabblers, etc. with a low entry threshold and to provide the seeds for serious deck building in other formats.  If possible, make it so that the 12 month there is no deck, but it falls during Worlds with a "Structure Deck Tournament" major side event.  Or something. ;)


If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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18 June 2018 - 10:45 PM

#49

Wise_Sage

    Rookie Trainer

  • Wise_Sage
I say to fix this, they should give more rewards (packs) when we use different decks. For example. If I won with the garchomp deck, then I get the bonus pack if I win with a different deck like imperial command. I will get more packs/bonus if I use a different deck that I haven't previously use before. Because right now, everyone is using the garchomp deck to get the fastest win. I am sure people have garchomp deck have bought other theme decks.
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19 June 2018 - 01:37 AM

#50

RestlessThought

    Novice Trainer

  • RestlessThought

That'd be way too easy to farm packs then. Right now the possibility to get a pack is just random chance from the daily mystery chests. Unless you mean in the Trainer Challenge against the AI, in which case the rewards are already set up to reward packs for using different decks against the trainers.

 

Just play a deck that beats the Garchomp Mach Strike deck, and you too can get easy fast wins :)
Destruction Fang, Imperial Command, probably Tropical Shake and I've heard Twilight Rogue also has a good matchup against it. Prize race them to victory. It's not as difficult to beat as when Hidden Moon was best deck in format.


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19 June 2018 - 03:09 AM

#51

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi

That'd be way too easy to farm packs then. Right now the possibility to get a pack is just random chance from the daily mystery chests. Unless you mean in the Trainer Challenge against the AI, in which case the rewards are already set up to reward packs for using different decks against the trainers.
 
Just play a deck that beats the Garchomp Mach Strike deck, and you too can get easy fast wins :)
Destruction Fang, Imperial Command, probably Tropical Shake and I've heard Twilight Rogue also has a good matchup against it. Prize race them to victory. It's not as difficult to beat as when Primal Crushing Current was best deck in format.

fixed
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19 June 2018 - 08:39 AM

#52

Mod_Lyam

    Moderator

  • Mod_Lyam

Hi there,

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with the community. Enjoy the game!


Moderator Lyam
Pokémon TCG Online Moderator

Need help from the support team? Visit the support portal and submit a ticket!


19 June 2018 - 12:31 PM

#53

Wise_Sage

    Rookie Trainer

  • Wise_Sage

That'd be way too easy to farm packs then. Right now the possibility to get a pack is just random chance from the daily mystery chests. Unless you mean in the Trainer Challenge against the AI, in which case the rewards are already set up to reward packs for using different decks against the trainers.
 
Just play a deck that beats the Garchomp Mach Strike deck, and you too can get easy fast wins :)
Destruction Fang, Imperial Command, probably Tropical Shake and I've heard Twilight Rogue also has a good matchup against it. Prize race them to victory. It's not as difficult to beat as when Hidden Moon was best deck in format.


I have all the decks you just described. Then why are we still seeing 80 % garchomp deck? Garchomp is the fastest way to win or lose depending on what you draw. Tell you the truth, I actually like the twilight rogue the most. But it is not meeting my objective for playing the online game. I play online so I can test various tcg standard deck for tournament. It is free, so easier to test decks, rather than spend $200 for each competitive decks. But it is taking a very long time to achieve that.. who wants to come here to play theme deck unless we are trying to get prizes for packs and get powerful cards? And let's not forget from business perspective. This game is free. I don't think they make much money off from this platform. I don't see any ads, so they probably only making money from tournaments and selling packs. So, shouldn't they want us to get powerful cards so we are into the game, and join more tournaments, and buy more actual packs or singles to build competitive decks for tournament?
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19 June 2018 - 03:58 PM

#54

Oldschool1990

    Veteran Trainer

  • Oldschool1990

Do not forget that many players are in a rush to ladder or lack the necessary time or patience for longer games, Mach Strike gives them what they need - a 50:50 deck where they either have a perfect hand and can play aggro, often leading to impatient opponents forfeiting instead of trying to turn around the game (which is understandable from a laddering standpoint, when you have a time pressure and go for fast games instead of fighting for victory in a long game. this saves alot of time overall) or they look what their opponents have, quickly evalute their chances, then forfeit. Mach strike does save alot of time on the ladder due to the 50:50 thing and players trying to be time-efficent. My deck for tournaments remains Twilight Rouge, as it is the strongest deck in the meta.(for more information consult my latest analysis) Also. you shouldn't enter tournaments in time pressure mode, as it leads to making mistakes.

 

 And let's not forget from business perspective. This game is free. I don't think they make much money off from this platform. I don't see any ads, so they probably only making money from tournaments and selling packs. So, shouldn't they want us to get powerful cards so we are into the game, and join more tournaments, and buy more actual packs or singles to build competitive decks for tournament?

 

I get your point, it's a justified one, but ultimately this free online game is not just a training platform for peole who want to play real paper tournaments. It is also kind of its own thing and certain players only play this game online.(and they are important, because it fills the game with people, so you have opponents to play against in order of training for real tournaments) If they'd be throwing around Tapu Leles for free, that would break the whole market and pretty much make the game less interessting. You are supposed to work your way up in order to feel archievement, which will bind you to this game more than if they'd just give all the cards for free. (that's a basic psychology thing) There are other "alternatives" where you can play the game with all cards for free, however you will not find many people there, resulting in beeing stuck with the same people and beeing bound to a certain time of day if you ever want to get a match going.


Edited by Oldschool1990, 19 June 2018 - 04:02 PM.

Specialized on Theme Deck Tournaments.

Contra principia negantem non est disputandum.

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19 June 2018 - 04:06 PM

#55

RestlessThought

    Novice Trainer

  • RestlessThought

LOL thank you @BowserLuigi, I stand corrected.  :lol: 
 

@Wise_Sage

I dunno, probably because people just parrot and eventually simplify advice to newbies on what first deck to get instead of actually trying decks out for themselves, leading to most newbs playing mirror matches? I don't really play theme, but like a couple months ago I played Destruction Fang instead of Zoroark for a dark challenge and it was fine. I bricked like 3 times but otherwise it did good against Mach Strike. So, far as I can tell, the real reason it's 80% Mach Strike is just the bandwagon effect.

 

If you think the game only makes money by selling packs, why would giving you extra free packs be in their interest? :P But actually, the game does give you tons of free cards and packs. Once you beat the AI trainers in the Trainer Challenge to 4 stars, currently they each give you a new random Standard pack for every deck you beat them with. That's a ton of free packs, like over 36 packs for each deck, waiting for you to claim. You basically get a booster box with every theme deck, which I personally think is amazingly generous. Like honestly too generous, probably a bug. Was a bug xD Still, you get a lot of boosters from it once you complete it.

 

And when you get bored of the AI, it's not really that hard to trade up. Especially if you play in real life, you probably have code cards and can immediately start trading and building a deck. Focus on learning that aspect of the game instead of theme decks and you'll build your Standard/Expanded format decks a lot faster.


Edited by RestlessThought, 19 June 2018 - 10:39 PM.

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19 June 2018 - 10:59 PM

#56

Wise_Sage

    Rookie Trainer

  • Wise_Sage
I agreed with both of you. I didn't read your deck analysis, but that's why I will play twilight rogue if I wanted to win for fun. That super poison card is my favorite card. But the game is too slow. I was 6-0 against garchomp last night , but the game play average 15 minutes. Way too long. This is why I play the garchomp deck in my ladder match. I have 20 days to get 2000 points. That's roughly 100 points per day. Then, I need to waste first 30 minutes on daily challenge. That doesn't leave me much time with anything else. So, like you said, look at the hands you have, and either concede or let your opponent concede. But, I usually concede if the opponent takes his/her time. If they have the upper hand, and it is the last prize card, just kill me already, instead they play Hau or energy on another monster.

For the trainer challenge, I have 5 decks that won all 3 cups (gold, platinum and city challenge). I still don't have the tepu lele. So, my deck isn't ready for the tournament online. I must have opened like 100 packs already.

I said they make money off from selling real paper packs, not online packs. Thus, the online game isn't moneymaking vehicle. It is just marketing tool. It is real hard playing crappy theme deck when you play paper tcg deck. Which is why I suggested that the bonus ladder, they should give out multiple packs or strong GX monster cards if the player uses different deck. I spent 2 hours a day online. At this rate, it will be 2021 when I get 3 copies of Lele. If everyone has strong standard deck, is that really bad idea? I just read in previous post that someone was gloating about facing inferior garchomp deck. Maybe it is because the real good cards are hard to get online. Well, I have to keep on grinding it.
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21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM

#57

Otakutron

    Senior Trainer

  • Otakutron

I said they make money off from selling real paper packs, not online packs. Thus, the online game isn't moneymaking vehicle. It is just marketing tool. It is real hard playing crappy theme deck when you play paper tcg deck.

 

S'why we need to convince TPCi (maybe even TPC themselves) that Theme Decks (Starter Decks) need to be a bit more developed.  The SM-series have, for the most part, been as good or better than anything which came before them, except perhaps some extremely old Theme Decks (as in, stuff released alongside Base Set).  It still isn't quite where I'd like it for the purposes of

  • Teaching fundamentals to new players
  • Becoming a solid starting point for your first deck
  • Becoming a solid casual playing option

That last is what the Theme Format sort-of creates for the PTCGO.  I'd love to see more Theme Deck tournaments for the physical TCG, or at least make it clear that, from this point on, Theme Decks are meant to be on roughly equal footing with all future theme decks until [insert cutoff point].


If you do not have Private Messages enabled, it really limits you in discussing the Pokémon TCG. ;)

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24 June 2018 - 10:52 PM

#58

LiteHope

    Novice Trainer

  • LiteHope

The new Ultra Prism decks released are slowly going to kill theme play. All I see is the same deck over and over. Almost all of the theme decks I have collected over the years are pretty much useless against the new decks. Really Pokémon Company? Maybe split the theme play so 1 type of deck doesn't dominate it. Fast way to drive away players is to frustrate them by making things they collected over the years useless. Also bring back unlimited. 

Hi,  [suggestions ahead]

correct me if im wrong but,

theme was the go to place for new players that could not compete in other modes right?

and as a business power creep is in many games, luckily no nerfing in this// that would be heart breaking

so 1 why not do what mtg planeswalker did and let players tweak decks with a few extra cards to practice deck building

2 to avoid temptation of an elo and deck tiering price:ranking points

3 not remove luck from casual play, but address and recognize the limitations of given decks  and add some comeback to satisfy skilled players like unlockable updates // ptcgo is the only game i dont mind spending an like an hour per match for such comebacks -- its funny

4 more user friendly developmental stages to allow them the time to evolve into better players and get a feel for the spirit of ptcgo

 

thats enough for now i dont want a longer list

hope it helps       oh and i listen to nintendo music when i play this :)

gl 


  • -1

27 June 2018 - 08:14 PM

#59

Oldschool1990

    Veteran Trainer

  • Oldschool1990

S'why we need to convince TPCi (maybe even TPC themselves) that Theme Decks (Starter Decks) need to be a bit more developed.  The SM-series have, for the most part, been as good or better than anything which came before them, except perhaps some extremely old Theme Decks (as in, stuff released alongside Base Set).  It still isn't quite where I'd like it for the purposes of

  • Teaching fundamentals to new players
  • Becoming a solid starting point for your first deck
  • Becoming a solid casual playing option

That last is what the Theme Format sort-of creates for the PTCGO.  I'd love to see more Theme Deck tournaments for the physical TCG, or at least make it clear that, from this point on, Theme Decks are meant to be on roughly equal footing with all future theme decks until [insert cutoff point].

 

Couldn't have said it better!

Your words in the ears of tpci's "creative" team...

 

Sometimes they design cards that make me think "they've got to make a theme deck out of this", but, oh well, they don't. Then why do they design those cards in the first place? They have no place in standard or older formats, literally only good for theme play, and then they don't put those cards in the theme decks.


Edited by Oldschool1990, 27 June 2018 - 08:20 PM.

Specialized on Theme Deck Tournaments.

Contra principia negantem non est disputandum.

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