Jump to content

Troll Decks Need To Stop


  • Please log in to reply

13 November 2017 - 04:27 AM

#1

Startropic1

    Junior Trainer

  • Startropic1

The makers of the TCG have created a problem and it really needs to be addressed.   For a while things like flare grunts and hammers have been around for knocking off energies.  There have been mill decks.  There are also ways to counter these things.  This is all fine and good.  However, at this point there are now too many cards that do these things, Not to mention a new red card card and N is still legal, among other cards that discard/shuffle your opponents cards.

 

   I literally just played against someone who played a red card and then played an N right after.  The only possible reason for doing this is to troll your opponent.  There are also multiple methods now to bring all these cards back into play---combining to be part of the reason lysandre's trump card was banned.  At this point with the right combination of cards you can manufacture the very same effect as the trump card itself.   This circumvents the 4-copy per deck limit exponentially--again part of the reason the trump card got banned.

 

  I'm not complaining about such decks being unbeatable.  I have no problem competing with the likes of the quad-Sylveon GX deck.

 

One of the main goals stated by both the makers of the TCG and the online game here is to be "fun."   How is it "fun" for someone to be pitted against a deck that literally forces them to just sit there and do nothing because the other guy is knocking off their energies 25 times a match and discarding/shuffling their cards 3 times a turn??  (These numbers are not even an exaggeration either!)  

Again, I'm not complaining about getting beaten by these decks.  I'm doing just fine getting my quota of wins, coins, etc.  I've actually played against some decks with these attributes that have no viable Pokemon that one could actually win with, doing nothing but dragging the match out ridiculously long just because the other player wants to spam me with these troll tactics before I finally stomp out his last low tier Pokemon to win.  

 

  It simply makes things not fun,  and very much unbalanced in a pointless and only good for trolling way.


Edited by Startropic1, 13 November 2017 - 04:29 AM.

  • 1

13 November 2017 - 06:22 PM

#2

theotherguytm

    Expert Trainer

  • theotherguytm

No card combo exists that can recycle your entire deck like LTC could.

It is impossible to reliably recycle Items in Standard (aside from the once-per game Twilight GX on Gardevoir GX), that's part of the reason Trash is a T1 deck (and also the reason Garde is the other T1 deck).

So I don't know where that idea comes from.

To beat Red Card/N:

Run 1 Oranguru.

Bench it.

Done.

And you have no idea of what a troll deck looks like until you have seen T1 Trev lock in Expanded. Forget discarding/disrupting your cards, how about never letting you play an Item card? Or the fat walking cancer that is Seismitoad. Play those and you will beg for quad Sylveon.

Oh and quad Sylveon itself is destroyed by exactly the same hand disruption you're complaining about.

Energy discard has been part of the game since Base Set (and it was really OP then), and that will never change.

All you need to do is use an attacker than can hit hard for 1 Energy drop, of which there is near-infinite, and many which are high-tier.


This is my OTHER signature.

 

http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/42500-the-mindless-nonsense-begins-my-ideas/

  • 2

13 November 2017 - 07:38 PM

#3

FlavorfulPineAp

    Senior Trainer

  • FlavorfulPineAp

No card combo exists that can recycle your entire deck like LTC could.

It is impossible to reliably recycle Items in Standard (aside from the once-per game Twilight GX on Gardevoir GX), that's part of the reason Trash is a T1 deck (and also the reason Garde is the other T1 deck).

So I don't know where that idea comes from.

To beat Red Card/N:

Run 1 Oranguru.

Bench it.

Done.

And you have no idea of what a troll deck looks like until you have seen T1 Trev lock in Expanded. Forget discarding/disrupting your cards, how about never letting you play an Item card? Or the fat walking cancer that is Seismitoad. Play those and you will beg for quad Sylveon.

Oh and quad Sylveon itself is destroyed by exactly the same hand disruption you're complaining about.

Energy discard has been part of the game since Base Set (and it was really OP then), and that will never change.

All you need to do is use an attacker than can hit hard for 1 Energy drop, of which there is near-infinite, and many which are high-tier.

Forgot to mention Sableye/Garbodor <3 Still a great deck.


Deck Building Maniac :cool: 

:wub: Favorite deck/s: Vespiquen/Vileplume, Vespiquen, Vespiquen/Flareon  :wub:  

  • 0

13 November 2017 - 07:39 PM

#4

theotherguytm

    Expert Trainer

  • theotherguytm

Forgot to mention Sableye/Garbodor <3 Still a great deck.

Yep, again though, countered by hand disruption, and an Expanded-only deck.

Plus, Field Blower breaks the deck more than a little.


This is my OTHER signature.

 

http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/42500-the-mindless-nonsense-begins-my-ideas/

  • 0

13 November 2017 - 07:52 PM

#5

FlavorfulPineAp

    Senior Trainer

  • FlavorfulPineAp

Yep, again though, countered by hand disruption, and an Expanded-only deck.

Plus, Field Blower breaks the deck more than a little.

Meh. Deck is meant to get rid of every resource and proceed to mill them to death. With Crimson Invasion, the deck gains Gladion and Counter Catcher. Its now basically unstoppable  :D


Deck Building Maniac :cool: 

:wub: Favorite deck/s: Vespiquen/Vileplume, Vespiquen, Vespiquen/Flareon  :wub:  

  • 1

13 November 2017 - 08:04 PM

#6

Startropic1

    Junior Trainer

  • Startropic1

No card combo exists that can recycle your entire deck like LTC could.

It is impossible to reliably recycle Items in Standard (aside from the once-per game Twilight GX on Gardevoir GX), that's part of the reason Trash is a T1 deck (and also the reason Garde is the other T1 deck).

So I don't know where that idea comes from.

To beat Red Card/N:

Run 1 Oranguru.

Bench it.

Done.

And you have no idea of what a troll deck looks like until you have seen T1 Trev lock in Expanded. Forget discarding/disrupting your cards, how about never letting you play an Item card? Or the fat walking cancer that is Seismitoad. Play those and you will beg for quad Sylveon.

Oh and quad Sylveon itself is destroyed by exactly the same hand disruption you're complaining about.

Energy discard has been part of the game since Base Set (and it was really OP then), and that will never change.

All you need to do is use an attacker than can hit hard for 1 Energy drop, of which there is near-infinite, and many which are high-tier.

 

 

On one turn you can play: Brock's Grit, Energy Recycle, Special Charge, Rescue Stretcher, and Super Rod--that's ~21 cards, and on the same turn you could play puzzle in time plus a combination of Pokemon abilities to retrieve the tool cards and use them again on the same turn.   So yes, such a combo does exist.

 

  I haven't even gotten to the energy removal and card shuffling stuff.   With the new red card, Judge, N, and Wicke you can force your opponent to shuffle their hand 16 times a match, now multiply that by the first combo I explained and you see where this is going.


  • 0

13 November 2017 - 08:10 PM

#7

FlavorfulPineAp

    Senior Trainer

  • FlavorfulPineAp

On one turn you can play: Brock's Grit, Energy Recycle, Special Charge, Rescue Stretcher, and Super Rod--that's ~21 cards, and on the same turn you could play puzzle in time plus a combination of Pokemon abilities to retrieve the tool cards and use them again on the same turn.   So yes, such a combo does exist.

 

  I haven't even gotten to the energy removal and card shuffling stuff.   With the new red card, Judge, N, and Wicke you can force your opponent to shuffle their hand 16 times a match, now multiply that by the first combo I explained and you see where this is going.

Shuffling doesnt really do anything, as you are just getting a new hand to work with every turn.


Deck Building Maniac :cool: 

:wub: Favorite deck/s: Vespiquen/Vileplume, Vespiquen, Vespiquen/Flareon  :wub:  

  • 0

14 November 2017 - 02:41 AM

#8

SuperStone

    Elite Trainer

  • SuperStone

Cards like Hammers are an unfortunate part of this game, and Tokyo has seemed to have a liking for them for eighteen years.  There's not much you can do to stop them- so the best strategy is to make your deck fast enough it can come back, and recyclable enough that you don't ever run out of energy.


The rest of the world must act as they see fit.  If TPCi insists on keeping the Chat canned, that is their decision.

 

But that does not stop me from opposing it.

And I will oppose it forever.

  • 0

14 November 2017 - 03:16 AM

#9

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

With the title "Troll Decks Need To Stop," I'm confused.  In your posts, you've listed so many cards that are potential culprits (Flare Grunt, Enhanced Hammer, Brock's Grit, Energy Recycle, Special Charge, Rescue Stretcher, Super Rod, Puzzle of Time, Peeking Red Card, Judge, N, and Wicke).

 

Are there any you like?

 

Is it possible your opponent wasn't using a "troll tactic" as you claim in your first post?  Maybe they needed to play N for themselves (they shuffle too), and didn't want the Red Card to get lost in their deck again? ...just playing whatever was playable before they shuffled their hand into their deck? ...maybe with no malice?  If it was the new Peeking Red Card, it might have even been smart on their part to look at your hand, to see if it was a good time to play N, forcing you to reshuffle.

 

Regardless, having Red Card and N doesn't exactly make a "Troll Deck."


Edited by RobRatt, 14 November 2017 - 03:50 AM.

  • 0

14 November 2017 - 03:38 AM

#10

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi

With the title "Troll Decks Need To Stop," I'm confused.  In your posts, you've listed so many cards that are potential culprits (Flare Grunt, Enhanced Hammer, Brock's Grit, Energy Recycle, Special Charge, Rescue Stretcher, Super Rod, Puzzle of Time, Peeking Red Card, Judge, N, and Wicke).
 
Are there any you like?
 
 
EDIT:  My bust, I was thinking Red Card made both players shuffle.

He might just wanna toss the red card away so that he doesn't draw it again
  • 0

14 November 2017 - 03:55 AM

#11

RobRatt

    Elite Trainer

  • RobRatt

He might just wanna toss the red card away so that he doesn't draw it again

You posted between my edits.  :)   You're right.  Could be a legit strategy.


  • 0

14 November 2017 - 06:28 AM

#12

Startropic1

    Junior Trainer

  • Startropic1


With the title "Troll Decks Need To Stop," I'm confused.  In your posts, you've listed so many cards that are potential culprits (Flare Grunt, Enhanced Hammer, Brock's Grit, Energy Recycle, Special Charge, Rescue Stretcher, Super Rod, Puzzle of Time, Peeking Red Card, Judge, N, and Wicke).

 

Are there any you like?

 

Is it possible your opponent wasn't using a "troll tactic" as you claim in your first post?  Maybe they needed to play N for themselves (they shuffle too), and didn't want the Red Card to get lost in their deck again? ...just playing whatever was playable before they shuffled their hand into their deck? ...maybe with no malice?  If it was the new Peeking Red Card, it might have even been smart on their part to look at your hand, to see if it was a good time to play N, forcing you to reshuffle.

 

Regardless, having Red Card and N doesn't exactly make a "Troll Deck."

 

 

  Frankly, no there aren't.  The only one I use is Wicke, but I choose my spot when I use it.  I still trash Quad-Sylveon GX and Gardevoir GX decks just fine with my steel decks, and it's extremely rare that I lose by getting milled. The Sylveon & Gardevoir decks especially like to use these types of cards.   It just really takes the fun out of the game.  To be fair though, I don't consider proper Sylveon & Gardevoir decks to be troll decks. I have no problem with the core concepts of those decks.  Some people just pile these type of cards in extra thick and turn those decks into troll decks.

 

  Imagine you're new to the game and you come up against someone with a deck stockpiling all these cards and you basically have to sit there never able to even play the game. Would you want to continue on with this game after an experience like that?

 


Frankly, no there aren't.  I still trash Quad-Sylveon GX and and Gardevoir GX decks just fine with my steel decks, cks especially like to use these types of cards.  It really takes the fun out of the game.

 

Imagine you're new to the game and you come up against someone with a deck stockpiling all these cards and you basically have to sit there never able to even play the game. Would you want to continue on with this game after an experience like that?

 


  • 1

14 November 2017 - 10:24 AM

#13

the_sqveel

    Expert Trainer

  • the_sqveel

i have an "energy disrupt" deck, i have muchos fun playing it as it requires a lot more thinking and strategy than most decks i have. (i only play rogues)

 

it consists of 2 pokemon and ALL the hand disrupt and energy disrupt cards. as well as a bunch of heals.

 

the has 3 victory paths, and the skill is involved in which one is the right one to choose, do i draw them out? (usually if they accept the full sometime 17 extra cards from mulligans) carefully not using any of my re-shuffle cards and keeping my pokes alive.

 

do i disrupt their energy so they can't get the setup they need and go for the kos?

 

do i mill them in the traditional way? discarding every card of theirs i can from the hand and field?

 

this is one of my favorite fun decks to play justnow as it's so adaptive rather than the rather boring "get yer pokemon, fill him with energy, bash till you win" approach

 

 

would you consider this a "troll" deck. simply because i am finding the fun in a way you don't agree with?


"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favourites." - Karen 

  • 1

14 November 2017 - 10:57 AM

#14

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi

Frankly, no there aren't. The only one I use is Wicke, but I choose my spot when I use it. I still trash Quad-Sylveon GX and Gardevoir GX decks just fine with my steel decks, and it's extremely rare that I lose by getting milled. The Sylveon & Gardevoir decks especially like to use these types of cards. It just really takes the fun out of the game. To be fair though, I don't consider proper Sylveon & Gardevoir decks to be troll decks. I have no problem with the core concepts of those decks. Some people just pile these type of cards in extra thick and turn those decks into troll decks.

Imagine you're new to the game and you come up against someone with a deck stockpiling all these cards and you basically have to sit there never able to even play the game. Would you want to continue on with this game after an experience like that?


Frankly, no there aren't. I still trash Quad-Sylveon GX and and Gardevoir GX decks just fine with my steel decks, cks especially like to use these types of cards. It really takes the fun out of the game.

Imagine you're new to the game and you come up against someone with a deck stockpiling all these cards and you basically have to sit there never able to even play the game. Would you want to continue on with this game after an experience like that?

That doesn't seem too terribly different from newbs complaining about EX/GX...

You're gonna see pretty much any serious deck (except maybe Night March) play N anyway so might as well get used to him. And Wicke is generally a suboptimal card anyway so she's pretty irrelevant.

Edited by BowserLuigi, 14 November 2017 - 11:00 AM.

  • 0

14 November 2017 - 12:41 PM

#15

The_Real_Bug

    Expert Trainer

  • The_Real_Bug

Are we seriously having this kind of conversation?

The "Troll decks" as you call them, can only get that far.

 

On the late game, they don't stand a chance.


Don't follow the trends, follow my threads

/u/The_Real_Bug_ /r/ptcgo

  • 0

14 November 2017 - 03:21 PM

#16

Startropic1

    Junior Trainer

  • Startropic1

i have an "energy disrupt" deck, i have muchos fun playing it as it requires a lot more thinking and strategy than most decks i have. (i only play rogues)

 

it consists of 2 pokemon and ALL the hand disrupt and energy disrupt cards. as well as a bunch of heals.

 

the has 3 victory paths, and the skill is involved in which one is the right one to choose, do i draw them out? (usually if they accept the full sometime 17 extra cards from mulligans) carefully not using any of my re-shuffle cards and keeping my pokes alive.

 

do i disrupt their energy so they can't get the setup they need and go for the kos?

 

do i mill them in the traditional way? discarding every card of theirs i can from the hand and field?

 

this is one of my favorite fun decks to play justnow as it's so adaptive rather than the rather boring "get yer pokemon, fill him with energy, bash till you win" approach

 

 

would you consider this a "troll" deck. simply because i am finding the fun in a way you don't agree with?

 

Maybe you're having fun but you're depriving your opponent of having any fun, and you obviously don't see a problem with that--maybe you're a little sociopathic?

 

The entire point of Pokemon as a whole is the battling, so if you find that boring maybe you're playing the wrong game.


  • 1

14 November 2017 - 04:05 PM

#17

BowserLuigi

    Elite Trainer

  • BowserLuigi

Maybe you're having fun but you're depriving your opponent of having any fun, and you obviously don't see a problem with that--maybe you're a little sociopathic?

The entire point of Pokemon as a whole is the battling, so if you find that boring maybe you're playing the wrong game.


Annoying your opponent to death is also a valid strategy if it has a win condition. LTC was banned cuz it removed that exact win condition. In fact, LTC was the one who stopped one of your so-called 'troll' decks in the first place!

Honestly if you need a better reason to play mill/energy denial than simply 'I want to win by being annoying' then maybe this isn't the game for you.
  • 0

14 November 2017 - 04:06 PM

#18

the_sqveel

    Expert Trainer

  • the_sqveel

but i am battling.

 

perhaps your crazy expectations of people never reshuffling and wanting them to top deck with dead hands ruins their fun?

 

fun is found in different ways by different players, your way is not the only way


"Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favourites." - Karen 

  • 1

14 November 2017 - 05:00 PM

#19

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_

Permission and lock decks need to be viable, in order to create a healthy environment.

 

Without those decks, hyper aggressive builds would run rampage and guess what: that isn't really exciting either. Good old old rock, paper,scissors. Take one of them away and the whole game becomes unbalanced.

 

While I can understand a concern about permission decks getting too strong, which leads to a rather boring format ( especially for the viewer ship of large tournaments), the current iterations of this archetype are rather tame. You said it yourself, you don't have much trouble beating them.

 

Lastly, I want to emphasize that fun is a rather subjective term to begin with, especially in a completive 1vs1 game. Even if you consider yourself a casual player, I strongly believe that you like to win as much as anyone else, rather than trying to create a deck that is as much fun to play, than it is to play against.


The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • 0

14 November 2017 - 05:03 PM

#20

awesome_guy

    Elite Trainer

  • awesome_guy

Maybe you're having fun but you're depriving your opponent of having any fun, and you obviously don't see a problem with that--maybe you're a little sociopathic?



The entire point of Pokemon as a whole is the battling, so if you find that boring maybe you're playing the wrong *****

the entire point of pokemon as a whole is to "catch them all"



but sure, you can make up your own version of it.. i'm sure nobody will mind when you stop people from playing the game based on a summary you made yourself

Edited by awesome_guy, 14 November 2017 - 05:03 PM.

  • 1