Jump to content

Solutions to counter Sableye/Garbodor?


  • Please log in to reply

17 February 2016 - 11:29 PM

#1

xJedithious

    Novice Trainer

  • xJedithious

Hi,

 

I'm surprised nobody seems to have brought this up; I was expecting most of the deck construction forum to be a raging storm about this topic, but nope. 

Anyways, ever since the release of Breakpoint, the card "Puzzle of Time" has been legal here on TCGO. Now in most decks the card is very hit-and-miss, but there's one deck which can utilize it to format breaking effect: Sableye/Garbodor.

Puzzle of Time allows Sableye to recover Life Dew every turn and potentially deny the opponent from even taking 1 prize card. The key thing phrase here, is "every turn". Before puzzle of time, Sableye could only deny every second prize card: it can't junk hunt for life dew on the same turn that it has life dew attached (and obviously life dew is an ace-spec so you can have only 1).  

Now it is true that Lysandre can play around this, but the insane disruption of this deck from Ability lock (Garbotoxin) to Energy Denial (Crushing Hammer, Enhanced Hammer, Xerosic and usually a playset (4) of Team Flare Grunt, makes it so that unless you're knocking out Sableye (to attempt to prevent it from continuing the item retrieval which allows it to continuously disrupt your setup to oblivion) and taking at least a prize card every second time, its extremely difficult to take all your prizes before your board state is hopelessly ruined. 

 

Here's the list I have been using:

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******
 
Pokémon - 12
 
2 Bunnelby PRC 121
2 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
4 Sableye DEX 62
2 Trubbish DRX 53
2 Garbodor LTR 68
 
Trainer Cards - 42
 
1 Trick Shovel FLF 98
4 Crushing Hammer EPO 92
1 Hex Maniac AOR 75
2 Team Aqua's Secret Base DCR 28
4 Ultra Ball DEX 102
2 N DEX 96
1 Super Rod BKT 149
2 Lysandre AOR 78
3 Team Flare Grunt XY 129
3 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
2 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
1 Xerosic PHF 110
3 Float Stone BKT 137
2 Head Ringer Team Flare Hyper Gear PHF 97
1 Ghetsis PLF 101
1 AZ PHF 91
1 Enhanced Hammer PHF 94
4 Professor Sycamore PHF 101
1 Tool Scrapper DRX 116
1 VS Seeker PHF 109
1 Life Dew PLF 107
1 Delinquent BKP 98
 
Energy - 6
 
6 Darkness Energy XYEnergy 1
 
Total Cards - 60
 
****** Deck List Generated by Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

It says a lot that even Yveltal/Darkrai loses to it now. Before Breakpoint, Yveltal/Darkrai (which dominated autumn regionals) had a pretty decent game against Sableye (Sableye never really had any autolosses but Yveltal/Darkrai was the closest thing to). Because Life Dew could only be recycled every second turn, the Yveltal player was easily able to use things like baby Yveltal to recycle energy as well as slowly gain prize cards. However with

Sableye's continuous and immediate access to life dew this isn't really possible.

I've tested a lot with the deck, and I haven't lost a single game with Sableye/Garbodor: even against a Trevenant item lock deck that was seemingly designed to counter it. Seismitoad is also pretty easy for the deck to beat, as usually it runs at least 3 team flare grunt and and 1 xerosic. And as for Vileplume/Vespiquen, if you can go first, attaching a float stone to trubbish on turn 1 and evolving to garbodor the next turn can theoretically save you. I haven't tested at all against this deck, though I think it may be the most promising counter.

 

Anyways, what do you guys think? Any deck ideas? For every other deck in the meta (whether Yvetlal/Darkrai, Toad/Bats, Night March or Vespiquen/Flareon) I know all of the decks they're effective against and all the decks that they're weak against. But for Sableye/Garbodor I can't think of any decks that its weak against. So I'd like your guys' opinion on this and any anti-sableye deck ideas or deck lists you might have created.

(Note: A good counter is a deck that not only beats Sableye/Garbodor but is decent against the rest of the meta. So even if there's a deck that autowins against Sableye/Garbodor, if its awful against everything else, it doesn't really count.) 

 

Thanks!

 


  • 0

17 February 2016 - 11:47 PM

#2

Pika36521

    Expert Trainer

  • Pika36521

Well, i run Mega Manectric/Articuno AT with Tool Scrapper and Lysandre... it doesn't need much setup but doesn't use abilities too, and i guess tool scrapping Life Dew and taking one more prize with Articuno, besides the fact that Mega Manectric attaches the discarded energy back into other pokémon, might be enough to beat Sableye/Garbodor.

 

EDIT: We could play a match sometime and test it!


Edited by Cuqk, 17 February 2016 - 11:47 PM.

deck build maniac

 

  • 1

18 February 2016 - 12:10 AM

#3

NiñoMutante

    Senior Trainer

  • NiñoMutante

Most hateful deck ever. Bless nightmarch

 

( :lol:  :lol:  :lol: )


Edited by NiñoMutante, 18 February 2016 - 12:10 AM.

  • 0

18 February 2016 - 03:39 AM

#4

fr33land

    Expert Trainer

  • fr33land

Spiritomb.  LTR 87?

 

Sealing Scream

Nobody can play any ACE Specs?

 

Too bad Garb turns that off. . .  But Startling Megaphone has two uses here, maybe you can KO Sableye, get the prize and they aren't able to recover that Rescue Scarf for Garbodor?

 

Actually, so stupid.

 

Seismitoad EX.

 

BAM

 

Maybe with some kind of DCE recovery. . .  Milotic?  Puzzle?  Max Elixir and Keldeo EX?

Anyways, just about any deck that runs 4 DCE could have one.

 

Toad / Bats has to be the best matchup vs Sableye Garbs.  You don't require energy to put damage counters with the Bats and if you can get Toad going, no more Life Dew and Hammers.  They can't VS Seeker TFG and if that's the only supporter they play they're probably going to be in trouble eventually.  Also, Lasers might put Sableye to sleep and stop it from Junk Hunting (not that it will matter since they won't be able to play Puzzle and recover supporters)

 

So awful.  Think I'll skip expanded tourneys for a while.


Edited by fr33land, 18 February 2016 - 08:14 AM.

  • 0

18 February 2016 - 10:30 AM

#5

Adhir1995

    Elite Trainer

  • Adhir1995

For some reason I feel puzzle of time is clunky in sableye/garb deck, just my opinion, also if you face this deck, playing N will( hopefuly) get rid of the puzzles but really i feel like its a step backwards to what you would normally get from junk hunt, i don't know i just don't like it personally


Edited by Adhir1995, 18 February 2016 - 10:31 AM.

  • 0

18 February 2016 - 11:58 AM

#6

Felidae_

    Elite Trainer

  • Felidae_
There is a very high chance that Sableye is going to be banned from Expanded, because the deck has not only an overwhelming positive match-up against the majority of the field, but furthermore facilitates a play style that is bound to enrange a good amount of players.



Personally I love the archetype ( as I'm a sucker for Combo + Control decks) and I really enjoy the different approaches and little tech cards you can run in the deck, however lets talk how you can actually beat the deck:



Understand how the deck works ( in your case that should be a given)



I saw time and time again during my testing that people would just rush through their deck as usual, wasting resources along the way, which is the biggest sin against this archetype. It reminds me a bit of Wailord + Suicune, where you'd win a majority of times based on your opponent not knowing how to play against it.



Add more Switch / Escape Rope than you normally would



In expanded it's usually a safe bet to rely on Darkrai, Float Stone, Keldeo and so forth to switch through your Pokemon, however once you face Team Aquas Base + Garbodor you'll often find yourself in a situation where you are locked out of the game, because your active Pokemon is stuck for all eternity.



Don't fight the Life Dew, aim instead for their bench via Lysandre + Escape Rope



With 4 VS Seeker and 2 copies of Lysandre in most decks it becomes fairly simple to snipe out the low HP bench Pokemon, so don't waste your resources digging through cards (i.e. getting rid of VS Seeker via Juniper / UB / etc.), unless you have to.



If you have to fight Life Dew, wait until you get a safe kill ( i.e. Laser + Attack, Attack + Xerosic / Tool Scrapper / Megaphone, etc.), otherwise you simply wasted resources once again.



Play around Team Flare Grunts



If you have to attach an Basic Energy that isn't immediately used to attack your opponent then give it to one of your benched Pokemon, otherwise you'll just ******* by the mean Grunts.

While having to survive 2 Hammer Flips isn't good either, it at least gives you a chance for survival.



Be patient



It's perfectly fine to simply play draw + go against this deck for a couple of turns, just wait for your opening and strike.



Disrupt their hand



Red Card, N, Judge, Ghetsis - disrupting their hand in order to set up a play can be the key to victory.







The problem that arises from this is obviously, as you already mentioned, that you can't tech your entire deck to beat one archetype, should you lose the necessary cards to fight the rest of the field in the process. While I do believe that it is possible to tweak in existing decks in order to fight Sableye , I also know that the majority of players leans more towards the “ ban / nerf / fix” approach, than focusing on “adapting”, hence I'll keep to my initial statement and say that I highly believe that Sableye will meet Mr. Banhammer in the near future.



In terms of the best deck to fight Sableye + the rest of the field:



Yveltal + Maxies (Archeops / Gallade) + Sableye (+ Puzzle of Time).



Yveltal has been the dominant archetype in Expanded for the ability to adept to any shifts in the meta game and with access to one of the best Energy acceleration engines in the game ( Dark Patch + Baby Yveltal), as well as lovely Sableye himself + the ability to tech in Maxies Hidden Ball trick, alongside certain meta dependent tech cards..... yeah the deck will continue to be dominant even with Sableye / Garbodor running around.

The shadows of the abyss are like the petals of a monstrous flower that shall blossom within the skull and expand the mind beyond what any man can bear, but whether it decays under the earth or above on green fields, or out to sea or in the very air, all shall come to revelation, and to revel, in the knowledge of the strangling fruit - and the hand of the sinner shall rejoice, for there is no sin in shadow or in light that the seeds of the dead cannot forgive...

 

  • 0

18 February 2016 - 11:10 PM

#7

xJedithious

    Novice Trainer

  • xJedithious

Well, i run Mega Manectric/Articuno AT with Tool Scrapper and Lysandre... it doesn't need much setup but doesn't use abilities too, and i guess tool scrapping Life Dew and taking one more prize with Articuno, besides the fact that Mega Manectric attaches the discarded energy back into other pokémon, might be enough to beat Sableye/Garbodor.

 

EDIT: We could play a match sometime and test it!

 

Ah yes M-Manectric; I forgot about that deck. Its true that attacks that also accelerate energy (the other example being baby yveltal) is one of the best ways to play around the deck. The only problem with M-Manectric is that unlike Yveltal, it takes 2 energy attachments before he can attack. So with all of Sableye's crushing hammers and flare grunts it might be hard to even pull one attack off. But its also true that if you can get a single turbo volt off, you get 2 more energy from there and with the zero retreat you can really get going. Articuno and Tool Scrapper, as you said, are also helpful. One big problem though is that while M-Manectric is and always has been a very decent deck, things are looking somewhat muddy for it in the context of the overall meta. This is mainly because of the huge popularity and success of Yveltal/Maxies: both Archeops and even more so Gallade absolutely obliterate anything with Manectric.

But overall, that is a pretty decent idea, and one I didn't consider. Sure, I'll add you, and maybe we'll be able to test it sometime! 


  • 0

18 February 2016 - 11:34 PM

#8

xJedithious

    Novice Trainer

  • xJedithious

There is a very high chance that Sableye is going to be banned from Expanded, because the deck has not only an overwhelming positive match-up against the majority of the field, but furthermore facilitates a play style that is bound to enrange a good amount of players.



Personally I love the archetype ( as I'm a sucker for Combo + Control decks) and I really enjoy the different approaches and little tech cards you can run in the deck, however lets talk how you can actually beat the deck:



Understand how the deck works ( in your case that should be a given)



I saw time and time again during my testing that people would just rush through their deck as usual, wasting resources along the way, which is the biggest sin against this archetype. It reminds me a bit of Wailord + Suicune, where you'd win a majority of times based on your opponent not knowing how to play against it.



Add more Switch / Escape Rope than you normally would



In expanded it's usually a safe bet to rely on Darkrai, Float Stone, Keldeo and so forth to switch through your Pokemon, however once you face Team Aquas Base + Garbodor you'll often find yourself in a situation where you are locked out of the game, because your active Pokemon is stuck for all eternity.



Don't fight the Life Dew, aim instead for their bench via Lysandre + Escape Rope



With 4 VS Seeker and 2 copies of Lysandre in most decks it becomes fairly simple to snipe out the low HP bench Pokemon, so don't waste your resources digging through cards (i.e. getting rid of VS Seeker via Juniper / UB / etc.), unless you have to.



If you have to fight Life Dew, wait until you get a safe kill ( i.e. Laser + Attack, Attack + Xerosic / Tool Scrapper / Megaphone, etc.), otherwise you simply wasted resources once again.



Play around Team Flare Grunts



If you have to attach an Basic Energy that isn't immediately used to attack your opponent then give it to one of your benched Pokemon, otherwise you'll just ******* by the mean Grunts.

While having to survive 2 Hammer Flips isn't good either, it at least gives you a chance for survival.



Be patient



It's perfectly fine to simply play draw + go against this deck for a couple of turns, just wait for your opening and strike.



Disrupt their hand



Red Card, N, Judge, Ghetsis - disrupting their hand in order to set up a play can be the key to victory.







The problem that arises from this is obviously, as you already mentioned, that you can't tech your entire deck to beat one archetype, should you lose the necessary cards to fight the rest of the field in the process. While I do believe that it is possible to tweak in existing decks in order to fight Sableye , I also know that the majority of players leans more towards the “ ban / nerf / fix” approach, than focusing on “adapting”, hence I'll keep to my initial statement and say that I highly believe that Sableye will meet Mr. Banhammer in the near future.



In terms of the best deck to fight Sableye + the rest of the field:



Yveltal + Maxies (Archeops / Gallade) + Sableye (+ Puzzle of Time).



Yveltal has been the dominant archetype in Expanded for the ability to adept to any shifts in the meta game and with access to one of the best Energy acceleration engines in the game ( Dark Patch + Baby Yveltal), as well as lovely Sableye himself + the ability to tech in Maxies Hidden Ball trick, alongside certain meta dependent tech cards..... yeah the deck will continue to be dominant even with Sableye / Garbodor running around.

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I completely agree, and I think the most important suggestion you gave is the "disrupt their hand one". It just occured to me that you could somewhat easily chain ghetsis and N against the deck while also, of course, using the classic baby yveltal + laserbank tactic. Also your "add more escape rope/switch" is quite relevant as well and one I've already considered. Overall, I think that AZ is a more important switching mechanism card since it can be vs seeker'd. 

I agree that Sableye will almost definitely be banned (the only question being when?). I also adore the overwhelming control of the deck and adding nasty techs (like Delinquent plus Trick shovel for deadly hand denial) but I'm already starting to get tired of it; games are just too long and grindy. In the end, I much prefer fast-paced 50/50 tactical duels such as Yveltal/Maxies vs Toad/Bats.

Also, that's an intersting idea, teching sableye and puzzle of time into Yveltal/Maxies itself. Might be tricky as Yveltal/Maxies is already spread pretty thin. On the other hand, though, it would certainly be easy to tech into the classic Yveltal/Darkrai decks (with more dark patches and supporters and less battle compressor and trainer's mail).


  • 0

17 May 2018 - 12:13 AM

#9

Princess_Aurora

    Veteran Trainer

  • Princess_Aurora
I apologize in advance for necroposting.

It has been two years now, and Sableye still isn’t banned. Since that the Ban Hammer won’t take care of it, here are some cards that can disrupt Savleye and be useful elsewhere.

-Seismitoad EX: temporary item lock that will almost completely shut down Sableye. It could also disrupt Night March as well as many other decks.

-Field Blower/Startling Megaphone: as said above, taking out Life Dew can allow you to land a safe blow. It can also swipe off Garbordor’s Pokemon Tool, which will shut down the ability disruption.

-Lysandre/Guzma/Lycanroc/Catcher: also as said above, it may be a good idea to snipe the more fragile parts of your opponent’s bench.

-Lysandre’s Lab: recently introduced in the Forbidden Light expansion, this Stadium renders all Pokemon Tool useless. It’s a great counter to Life Dew, and can also be useful if you don’t use a lot of Tools yourself.

That’s all that I can think of. Good luck on the playmat!

Friendship is magic!

  • 0

17 May 2018 - 01:46 AM

#10

gunmetal

    Trainer

  • gunmetal
Far better solution ultra prisms oranguru and its attack resource management its the only counter you need against that deck it recycles 3 cards in your discard pile to the bottom of your deck sableye mills the top of your deck and mostly two cards at a time its an autoloss for sableye garboder
  • 0